Dead Bike!

[Traveller]

Looks like the electrics' gremlin has finally done a right job on my bike.

Basically the bike's ignition won't turn over. Period.

But let me start from the top.

I bought a '96 VFR750 from Germany. It has 52,000 original km on the clock.

Before buying the bike I had a friend go to the dealer and try it out.

They tried to start it up while I was on the phone; I could hear the ignition turning and turning but the bike would not fire up.

Dealer said it was completely dry of fuel. A short while later the bike did in fact fire up fine and my friend took it for a spin. Bike was completely normal.

We load the bike on the transport platform and 3 days later the bike arrives to me.

The transport guy unloads the bike, fires it up and starts fine.

While it was a little unwilling to fire at first, I put it down to a shagged battery and 3 days of being on the platform.

I did notice that the dash lights were dimming when I turned on the signals, or pressed the brakes lever.

I ride the bike home fine, then next evening I go to start the bike.

Bike would not start. The started turned slowly a couple of times while the dash lights dimmed.

I check the battery and it was an unnamed 10Ah battery which had a date written "Oct-2005".

So I thought I should replace the battery.

I had a Yuasa battery from my 2004 Honda Transalp 650 which I had recharged fully and kept it as a spare.

I put it on the bike and sure enough it fired immediately. I used the bike with no problems for about a month.

Yesterday morning I went to take the bike and I turned the choke all the way to full, and pressed start. The ignition turned a couple of times and then I hear one (1) loud click and the ignition stopped turning.

At the same time I saw that the dash lights were dimmed while pressing the start button.

As I had kept the other battery and I had charged it also I decide to swap batteries.

However, the result was the same: press start button, one loud click is heard from around the r/r area, ignition is NOT turning and dash lights dimming.

* I stress that one click was heard because it was different from the soft clicking sound the ignition is making when the battery is dead.

I put the voltage meter on the battery; it was reading 12.95 volts.

I checked current leaks and it was reading 0.5 mA -well within specs.

Strange thing though; when I kept the voltage meter hooked on the battery and I pressed ignition, a strange shrilling noise was coming from either the battery or the r/r, as long as I was keeping the ignition button pressed.

FYI, the battery at that point was reading 8 volts and dropping.

I tried both batteries to no avail.

Today I went and bought a brand new battery. I put it on thinking that this will solve my problems, but.... nope!

Again the ignition is not turning, loud click is heard and lights dimming.

I also checked all fuses (main & aux) and they are all fine.

What is going on here??

I haven't the slightest idea where to start!

The bike is dead and going nowhere fast..

Any suggestions will be highly appreciated!

[SEBSPEED]

Starter solenoid?

[spud786]

Well, you have to start with a known good condition fully charged battery, a bike thats been sitting like in this instance I would espect a weak or failing battery as a high probabity.

Get a battery tender and leave it on for 24 hours,

i just saw where you installed a new battery, was it fully charged, my new one still took charge for like 8 hours , anyway its beggining to sound like something other than battery, but dont trust a new battery as being fully charged, and even though it reads 12.9 volt doesnt necessarily mean its fully charged.

actually they will read over 13 volt in most of the yuasa, fully charged and in good condition

[timmythecop]

most new batteries need a charge before they are used. put the new fella on charge overnite and try it again.

then your test should show either a bad r/r or bad stator/rotor.

if that doesnt do it, ask somebody smarter than me.

shouldnt be too hard

[Traveller]

I was kind of hoping it would be the rectifier. Getting another one off ebay and replacing it seems pretty straight forward.

If it is something else then I'm swamped. Starter solenoid???? {scratches head}

I will put the new battery on the tender, but I keep little hope of this being an uncharged battery. I now have 3 batteries lying about and all have the same result.

[spud786]

I was kind of hoping it would be the rectifier. Getting another one off ebay and replacing it seems pretty straight forward.

If it is something else then I'm swamped. Starter solenoid???? {scratches head}

I will put the new battery on the tender, but I keep little hope of this being an uncharged battery. I now have 3 batteries lying about and all have the same result.

you might check you starter sol connections like Seb mentioned , 6th gen they are under the seat, not sure on 5th gen(probably similar)

untill you can get the bike to turn over I dont believe the RR will have anything to do with it

[SEBSPEED]

On a '96, the starter solenoid would be the round cylinder that has the 30 amp fuse next to it, I forget which side panel it hides behind, but it has short heavy gauge wire going into it from the battery.

[Traveller]

Well, when I checked the 30A fuse I did see a couple of cylindrical parts, but they were partially hidden by the fuel tank. I didn't see any heavy gauge wires going to them though... The stupid service manual is next to useless with its drawings!

So you guys think that the r/r is not to blame? I don't know where to begin looking for the problem!

1. The fuses are all ok.

2. I tried 2 fully charged batteries and a brand new one.

3. The dash/lights etc all light up with no problem.

4. Up until yesterday the bike would start fine even if I left it for a whole week without running (I am not using the bike so much these days unfortunately:( )

5. Yesterday morning it did turn over a couple of times and then it suddenly stopped with an audible 'clack' noise.

BTW, when turning the key to the ignition, should the fuel pump priming be audible? (On my Ducati it is clearly audible when turning the key to the ignition).

Damn... Just what I needed right now!

[SEBSPEED]

Trace the heavy gauge leads from the battery to the starter solenoid and test it.

[Traveller]

This may be a stupid question, but when you say starter solenoid you mean the starter motor??

[Guest]

The solenoid is a kind of relay that allows high amps to get to the starter motor with out running them through a switch. If your starter switch is not getting voltage to the solenoid, or the solenoid is not reacting, you won't get any voltage to the starter. You could also try spraying some contact cleaner in the starter switch. I hope its something easy, if not you'll have to start tracing the circuit to see where the problem is.

Action

[Traveller]

The solenoid is a kind of relay that allows high amps to get to the starter motor with out running them through a switch. If your starter switch is not getting voltage to the solenoid, or the solenoid is not reacting, you won't get any voltage to the starter. You could also try spraying some contact cleaner in the starter switch. I hope its something easy, if not you'll have to start tracing the circuit to see where the problem is.

Action

I found a pic of the solenoid so I know what you refer to:

Turns out that I inspected it when I checked the 30A fuse. Plug seems fine and so do all the connections... I will check again tomorrow in daylight.

Can we safely rule out the r/r?

Keep in mind that the dash lights dim when I press the start button and a high pitched sound is coming from around the battery/rr area. :biggrin:

[Tightwad]

Starter Solonoid has two big conections. Connect the two using a heavy screwdriver and if the bike turns over the Solonoid or Start Switch is bad. If it doesn't turn over (with the new battery) then the Starter is probably bad. If the voltage drops to 8 volts while attempting to start, the starter is the problem, it is taking the power but not spinning.

[Traveller]

Starter Solonoid has two big conections. Connect the two using a heavy screwdriver and if the bike turns over the Solonoid or Start Switch is bad. If it doesn't turn over (with the new battery) then the Starter is probably bad. If the voltage drops to 8 volts while attempting to start, the starter is the problem, it is taking the power but not spinning.

That is exactly what is happening!

I hooked up my volt meter on the battery and tried to start the bike. The voltage dropped directly from 12.9 to 8v and kept on dropping, while a high pitched sound was heard from around the battery area.

So I may be looking at a new starter motor? Is this kind of thing typical of VFRs?

[checksix]

Maybe try rolling the bike back and forth a few feet while in gear in case the starter is hung up (stuck) ?

This sometimes works on cars that have a "bad spot" on the starter. Dunno if it would work on a bike.

You might also try having a friend help you push start it. If you can get the engine running you might be able to at least rule out an R/R problem.

[hondalover]

Starter Solonoid has two big conections. Connect the two using a heavy screwdriver and if the bike turns over the Solonoid or Start Switch is bad. If it doesn't turn over (with the new battery) then the Starter is probably bad. If the voltage drops to 8 volts while attempting to start, the starter is the problem, it is taking the power but not spinning.

That is exactly what is happening!

I hooked up my volt meter on the battery and tried to start the bike. The voltage dropped directly from 12.9 to 8v and kept on dropping, while a high pitched sound was heard from around the battery area.

Sh!t.... :biggrin:

If the starter is the problem how the h#ll am I going to fix it? :blink:

It sounds like an expensive problem, and even if I had the money to have it repaired I have no means of taking the bike to the mechanic.

I know Tightwad is must better than me with electronics, but I have to disagree that the starter problem. When you load test a battery it is simulating the starter which is the biggest load that a motorcycle can but on a battery. If when you load test the battery and it falls below 9-10 volts DC it shows that it doesn't have the power to turn over the engine. Try the same test with the new battery and I bet you get the same result. To properly diagnosis an electrically problem always start with a known, fully charged battery. I agree with spud that the issue is the new battery isn't properly charged. To verify the starter solenoid is working correctly place your positive lead from you volt meter on the side of the solenoid that is not hooked to the battery and try to start the bike. I willing to bet you get the same results, a click and a voltage of 8 volts and falls from there. I hope this helps and wasn't too confusing. BTW, your English is very good, have you always lived in Greece?

[Traveller]

I know Tightwad is must better than me with electronics, but I have to disagree that the starter problem. When you load test a battery it is simulating the starter which is the biggest load that a motorcycle can but on a battery. If when you load test the battery and it falls below 9-10 volts DC it shows that it doesn't have the power to turn over the engine. Try the same test with the new battery and I bet you get the same result. To properly diagnosis an electrically problem always start with a known, fully charged battery. I agree with spud that the issue is the new battery isn't properly charged. To verify the starter solenoid is working correctly place your positive lead from you volt meter on the side of the solenoid that is not hooked to the battery and try to start the bike. I willing to bet you get the same results, a click and a voltage of 8 volts and falls from there. I hope this helps and wasn't too confusing. BTW, your English is very good, have you always lived in Greece?

Anything that gives me hope that it could be a straightforward problem is always welcome mate!!! :biggrin:

By the way I really wanna say thanks to all you guys for trying to help out my broke @ss! Your help is being greatly appreciated!

I have the new battery on the charger as we speak and I will leave it on overnight. I did check it a short while ago though and the green LEDs were on, meaning that the battery is fully charged.

In any case I will try tomorrow and see what happens. If need be I will hook it up to the car and see what happens!

Good news is that spare elec. parts for the Viffer are really cheap on the net, so anyway this goes it shouldn't be too expensive to fix (crosses fingers, touches wood etc)! :blink:

Re: the english thing... Besides being a qualified teacher, I've lived in the UK for the better part of a decade and also been to Chicago for about a year... But anyway, english has always been like a native language to me.... :happy:

[Tightwad]

Starter Solonoid has two big conections. Connect the two using a heavy screwdriver and if the bike turns over the Solonoid or Start Switch is bad. If it doesn't turn over (with the new battery) then the Starter is probably bad. If the voltage drops to 8 volts while attempting to start, the starter is the problem, it is taking the power but not spinning.

That is exactly what is happening!

I hooked up my volt meter on the battery and tried to start the bike. The voltage dropped directly from 12.9 to 8v and kept on dropping, while a high pitched sound was heard from around the battery area.

Sh!t.... :biggrin:

If the starter is the problem how the h#ll am I going to fix it? :blink:

It sounds like an expensive problem, and even if I had the money to have it repaired I have no means of taking the bike to the mechanic.

I know Tightwad is must better than me with electronics, but I have to disagree that the starter problem. When you load test a battery it is simulating the starter which is the biggest load that a motorcycle can but on a battery. If when you load test the battery and it falls below 9-10 volts DC it shows that it doesn't have the power to turn over the engine. Try the same test with the new battery and I bet you get the same result. To properly diagnosis an electrically problem always start with a known, fully charged battery. I agree with spud that the issue is the new battery isn't properly charged. To verify the starter solenoid is working correctly place your positive lead from you volt meter on the side of the solenoid that is not hooked to the battery and try to start the bike. I willing to bet you get the same results, a click and a voltage of 8 volts and falls from there. I hope this helps and wasn't too confusing. BTW, your English is very good, have you always lived in Greece?

If the starter motor is stuck, it will attempt to draw as much current as it can to spin, which is what lowers the voltage. Based on the results from a previously good battery, and a new battery being the same I think the Battery can be ruled out as the culprit. The fact that the starter had to crank and crank to start initially may have worn it out, they should not be run for extended periods of time.

As far as the load test, it does indeed simulate the largest draw, which would be the starter. Testing cranking volts is the best way to determine the cause...if the volts hadn't dropped I would say his starter switch, starter solenoid, or one of the starter disable systems was the problem. With the volts dropping, and a whine noise coming from that area, it is evident a load is being placed on the battery.

on bumping the bike over in gear, it is possible the starter gear is stuck. Also, tapping the starter body with a hammer or like tool can sometimes free it up, but is usually a temp fix, and should only be used to get you out of a jam.

[Traveller]

If the starter motor is stuck, it will attempt to draw as much current as it can to spin, which is what lowers the voltage. Based on the results from a previously good battery, and a new battery being the same I think the Battery can be ruled out as the culprit. The fact that the starter had to crank and crank to start initially may have worn it out, they should not be run for extended periods of time.

As far as the load test, it does indeed simulate the largest draw, which would be the starter. Testing cranking volts is the best way to determine the cause...if the volts hadn't dropped I would say his starter switch, starter solenoid, or one of the starter disable systems was the problem. With the volts dropping, and a whine noise coming from that area, it is evident a load is being placed on the battery.

:biggrin: on bumping the bike over in gear, it is possible the starter gear is stuck. Also, tapping the starter body with a hammer or like tool can sometimes free it up, but is usually a temp fix, and should only be used to get you out of a jam.

Ok, I hear what you're saying, but I have 3 questions if I may:

1. Is this a justified issue on a bike with such low mileage and usage as mine?

2. How could such a thing happen? Is this an issue for VFRs in general?

3. Can I get an upgraded starter motor (eg from another gen VFR) or should I try to find the exact same one?

[Beck]

If the starter motor is stuck, it will attempt to draw as much current as it can to spin, which is what lowers the voltage. Based on the results from a previously good battery, and a new battery being the same I think the Battery can be ruled out as the culprit. The fact that the starter had to crank and crank to start initially may have worn it out, they should not be run for extended periods of time.

As far as the load test, it does indeed simulate the largest draw, which would be the starter. Testing cranking volts is the best way to determine the cause...if the volts hadn't dropped I would say his starter switch, starter solenoid, or one of the starter disable systems was the problem. With the volts dropping, and a whine noise coming from that area, it is evident a load is being placed on the battery.

:biggrin: on bumping the bike over in gear, it is possible the starter gear is stuck. Also, tapping the starter body with a hammer or like tool can sometimes free it up, but is usually a temp fix, and should only be used to get you out of a jam.

Ok, I hear what you're saying, but I have 3 questions if I may:

1. Is this a justified issue on a bike with such low mileage and usage as mine?

2. How could such a thing happen? Is this an issue for VFRs in general?

3. Can I get an upgraded starter motor (eg from another gen VFR) or should I try to find the exact same one?

Bad starters isn't one of the comon problems with 4th gen VFRs. Just the RR and related wiring harness. There might have been a low voltage problem that made the former owner have problems starting the bike which then stressed the starter abnormally (overheating and accelerated starter sprag clutch wear.).

Regarding the electrics, even bikes with very low mileage like yours can have it's connectors corrode just sitting mostly in a garage. Clean up all your connectors and grounds asap to correct and prevent problems.

Be patient and try to track the problem methodically. I suggest you also get a service manual from Honda if you haven't yet.

Hope you get it fixed soon.

Beck

95 VFR

[VFR4Lee]

The cranking then not cranking and just clicking when you hit the button sounds like the starter relay / solenoid to me.

But maybe it's because I just replaced the one on my Tuono and it started right back up with the new relay. Instant rowdy noise. :biggrin:

Good luck with it.

[sa1713]

The cranking then not cranking and just clicking when you hit the button sounds like the starter relay / solenoid to me.

I had the exact same symptom when I restored a 93 last year. Turns out it was worn starter brushes. A quick part change and the starter worked perfectly after that.

[Traveller]

With your help and the guys over at VFRworld I found the solution yesterday!

Turns out it was a combination of an old and weak battery and of a stuck starter motor.

When I tried to start the bike on Friday it turned a couple of times and then a loud clack was hear. Much like a cog jumping a tooth.

When I put on the new battery it was supplying power. The dash/lights/etc were all working, and I knew the solenoid was working because judging by the dimming of the lights and voltage drop while pressing the starter button the battery was straining.

But still, no engine turning. So what is the next in line if batt, & solenoid are fine? Starter motor.

A forum member suggested to put the bike in gear and push it front and back to try and free the starter motor. I did that and wa-la!! Houston we have ignition!!

Next I checked the r/r and the battery. I let the bike warm up thoroughly and here are the results:

On idle: 14.9v steady

On 5,000 rpm: Dropped down to 14.3v and holding.

After that I went for a long 600K trip with mates with plenty of stopping & starting. Bike ran like a champ!

So, problem solved. Still I think I will go get a spare starter motor and will do the gixxer r/r mod just in case! Many thanks guys! I owe you one!

[Guest]

I just had something very similar happen tonight. I went to a friends house, shut the bike down, went to re start it about 2 mins after getting there to move the bike. I turned the key, lights on fuel pump kicking, push the starter no nothing. Lights dim, but no start. A very audible clicking from the soleniod (I took the seat off and know where it lives) I rolled it down his driveway and pop started it, fired up and drove home no problem. Got it here checked voltage on the battery OUT of the bike, 12.9-13.0, threw a charge in it anyway. Now it's at 14, popped the battery back in and still a very audible click, but no start... HMMMMMMMMMM....I read this whole thread but I already popped started the bike once, what gives? Am I just not getting the picture? Thanks fellas

on edit: The battery was a new Yasua in July of this year.

[Tightwad]

Unless you have a rapid charger (bad for motorcycles) you can't have charged the battery enough to rejuvinate it from possibly being dead. Mostly likely you have an R/R or Stator issue IF (big if) the Starter isn't the problem. Not been a lot of starter problems reported, but strange things happen.

Try jump starting from a car battery (car not running), if the bike starts most likely the battery just hasn't been getting charged like it needed. Battery may be dead (again), age doesn't save a battery that gets abused.