The Frankenviffer Data Table

[JZH]

As mentioned in another thread I'm compiling data relevant to the Frankenviffer "lifestyle"... :wheel:

From a search, I see that SAFE-T has already done something like this, but as I haven't seen the result, I'm happy to roll my own and post it when it is complete enough to be useful.

The table I'm creating is necessarily a mixture of OEM specifications, related calculations and physical measurements. In order to preserve the integrity of the data, I will not include in my table anything I cannot verify as coming from a reliable source. In the case of the OEM specs, that means the General Information section of the Honda Workshop Manuals. In the case of physical measurements, it will be difficult to gauge the reliability of these unless I do them myself--or know that they were done by someone who is familiar with measuring such things. For calculations I will use Tony Foale's software.

As for which data to include for each model, I am open to suggestions, but these are the ones I've chosen at the moment:

Caster Angle/Rake (OEM spec)

Trail (OEM spec)

Fork Offset (to be measured)

"Real Trail" (calculated)

Tire Radius (OEM spec)

Fork Length (to be measured)

Fork Spacing (to be measured)

Yoke Upper I.D. (to be measured)

Axle O.D. (OEM spec--done)

Wheel Hub Width (to be measured)

Brake Disc O.D. (from Braking catalog--done)

Disc Bolt Circle (from Braking catalog--done)

Brake Disc Offset (from Braking catalog--done)

Caliper Bolt Spacing (to be measured)

Master Cylinder Marking (derived from OEM spec)

(I'm not too bothered about the OEM spring rate, as I would expect that would be changed in any case to better suit the bike and rider.)

Below is the list of models I am planning to include in the table. Generally, it includes most Honda sport and sport-touring models with at least 41mm forks. If you think I've missed any significant models, please let me know.

Year Model Name Code PCN

90-94 CBR400RRL-R NC29 MV4

94-96 RVF400RR-T NC35 MR8

89-92 VFR400RK-N NC30 MR8

91-94 CBR600FM-R (F2) PC25 MV9

95-98 CBR600FS-W (F3) PC25 MAL

99-00 CBR600FX-Y (F4) PC35 MBW

01-02 CBR600FS1-2 (Sport) PC35 MBW

01-08 CBR600F1-8 (F4i) PC35 MBW

03-04 CBR600RR3-4 PC37 MEE

05-06 CBR600RR5-6 PC37 MEE

07-08 CBR600RR7-8 PC40 MFJ

1992 NR750N (NR) RC40 MT7

94-95 RVF750RR-S RC45 MW4

90-93 VFR750FL-P RC36 MT4

94-97 VFR750FR-V RC36 MZ7

88-90 VFR750RJ-L RC30 MR7

98-01 VFR800FiW-1 RC46 MBG

02-08 VFR800F2-8 VTEC RC46 MCW

92-93 CBR900RRN-P (FireBlade) SC28 MW0

94-95 CBR900RRR-S (FireBlade) SC28 MAE

96-97 CBR900RRT-V (FireBlade) SC33 MAS

98-99 CBR900RRW-X (FireBlade) SC33 MAS

00-01 CBR900RRY-1 (929) SC44 MCJ

02-03 CBR900RR2-3 (954) SC50 MCJ

04-05 CBR1000RR4-5 (Fireblade) SC57 MEL

06-07 CBR1000RR6-7 (Fireblade) SC57 MEL

98-07 VTR1000FW-7 (Firestorm) SC36 MBB

00-01 VTR1000SP-1 (RC51) SC45 MCF

02-07 VTR1000SP-2 (RC51) SC45 MCF

97-08 CBR1100XX (Blackbird) SC35 MAT

03-07 ST1300A3-7 (Pan European) SC51 MCS

(I've got access to Honda Workshop Manuals for all of the above bikes, except the CBR600F2, CBR600RR5-6, CBR600RR7-8, CBR900RRN-P, CBR900RRR-S, CBR900RRW-X and CBR1000RR6-7. If you do, and could give me the caster angle/rake, trail and master cylinder I.D. specs listed in the General Information section, I would appreciate it. No Haynes; no Clymer, please!)

I acknowledge that there are non-Honda options as well, but my personal preference is for "OEM-like" and to not mix manufacturers, so I ordinarily would not consider using R1 or Ducati parts on my bikes. Once this data set is more or less complete, I will post it and the non-Honda stuff can be added to it then. Fair enuf?

I hope this effort will prove useful to anyone considering making front end modifications to their VFR--any assistance in this project would be appreciated.

Cheers,

[HispanicSlammer]

Hmm maybe I can do somthing with this data on vfrd this winter - another winter project for me.

[The Phantom]

JZH, I have fairly free access to to one of Sydney's bigger moto wreckers 'off limits' area, next time I go there I'll go armed with Vernier, micrometer, steel rules, pen/graphpaper etc. and see what I can find and measure - have already printed your list off so I have the relevant model numbers to record data against. Great idea.

[mello dude]

As mentioned in another thread I'm compiling data relevant to the Frankenviffer "lifestyle"... :wheel:

I hope this effort will prove useful to anyone considering making front end modifications to their VFR--any assistance in this project would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Quite a blowout project - Can you make it an excell file that can be saved to a drive? Would be super reference stuff to have.

Just for 2 cents - my ride is a 5th gen and I used the stock uppers, Super Hawk guts, Traxxion Dynamics valves, SH lowers, RC51 brakes calipers and master cylinder.

It looks OEM, but really rocks. I can provide a link for photo's and info if requested.

Good luck on your Frankenviffer data mine.

MD

[vfrcapn]

JZH, Sounds great, anything I can do to help let me know. It's a very ambitious effort. Were you also going to list actual Frankenviffer specs, VFR with RC front end for example?

[SAFE-T]

From a search, I see that SAFE-T has already done something like this, but as I haven't seen the result, I'm happy to roll my own and post it when it is complete enough to be useful.

The info. I collected shows what fits on what based on completed bikes that have actually been ridden, the idea being to be able to cross reference your particular VFR and see what choices you have.

[JZH]

JZH, I have fairly free access to to one of Sydney's bigger moto wreckers 'off limits' area, next time I go there I'll go armed with Vernier, micrometer, steel rules, pen/graphpaper etc. and see what I can find and measure - have already printed your list off so I have the relevant model numbers to record data against. Great idea.

VIP passes are always good!

Measuring is always tricky without the appropriate tools...the problem being that there aren't "proper" tools for measuring things like fork offset and wheel flange width/distance (though a big set of calipers might work if the discs aren't on the wheel?)--at least, I haven't got 'em! Fortunately, there are some things you can do to "cheat", such as determining dimensions from parts that bolt-up to others of known dimensions, so once the 929 triple clamp is measured accurately, for example, we will also know the dimensions of everything else that we already know it interchanges with.

I managed to determine all of the axle diameters, for another example, by referencing bearing part numbers on www.bike-parts.fr...but I led myself down the garden path a bit before I realised that some bikes on the list used 6204s in the REAR as well as the front. (I was using the part number reference feature to see which other models used the same front wheel bearing part number, thinking they would all therefore have to have the same front axle...I think I caught the error in time, though!) The short answer is that all of the bikes use 20mm, except the CBR600RR3-6 and SP1-2 (which use 22mm) and all Fireblades from the 929 to the 1000RR7 (which all use 25mm--as does the ST1300).

In theory, we shouldn't need to measure fork offset at all, if the OEM rake and trail numbers are accurate (the fuzzy factor could be OEM tire radius?), because with rake, trail and tire radius, offset can be calculated using Tony Foale's software or the formula that has also been recently shared here.

Probably the hardest thing to measure will be fork length, because we have already seen that different people have obtained different measurements on supposedly the same types of forks. I suppose if we get enough measurements, we can derive an average... Fork spacing is also not a common measure. Anyway, thanks for the help.

(mello dude, the table is in Word at the moment, but as soon as I get back to London and can fill in some more of the blanks I'll post it in whatever format you like.)

(vfrcapn, once the table is completed, spec'ing actual bikes should be fairly easy, since we'll know the dimensions of all of their components. I recently purchased Tony Foale's complete Suspension Kinematics software, and from a few hours playing around with it I think I could even deal with various adjustments people had made to their bikes as well, given accurate measurements of what had been done.)

(I've also determined that my own FP will be quite a challenge to get back to "normal" geometry, given its current mods and the ones I intend to inflict upon it...:goofy:)

Ciao,

[mello dude]

JZH, I have fairly free access to to one of Sydney's bigger moto wreckers 'off limits' area, next time I go there I'll go armed with Vernier, micrometer, steel rules, pen/graphpaper etc. and see what I can find and measure - have already printed your list off so I have the relevant model numbers to record data against. Great idea.

VIP passes are always good!

Measuring is always tricky without the appropriate tools...the problem being that there aren't "proper" tools for measuring things like fork offset and wheel flange width/distance (though a big set of calipers might work if the discs aren't on the wheel?)--at least, I haven't got 'em! Fortunately, there are some things you can do to "cheat", such as determining dimensions from parts that bolt-up to others of known dimensions, so once the 929 triple clamp is measured accurately, for example, we will also know the dimensions of everything else that we already know it interchanges with.

I managed to determine all of the axle diameters, for another example, by referencing bearing part numbers on www.bike-parts.fr...but I led myself down the garden path a bit before I realised that some bikes on the list used 6204s in the REAR as well as the front. (I was using the part number reference feature to see which other models used the same front wheel bearing part number, thinking they would all therefore have to have the same front axle...I think I caught the error in time, though!) The short answer is that all of the bikes use 20mm, except the CBR600RR3-6 and SP1-2 (which use 22mm) and all Fireblades from the 929 to the 1000RR7 (which all use 25mm--as does the ST1300).

In theory, we shouldn't need to measure fork offset at all, if the OEM rake and trail numbers are accurate (the fuzzy factor could be OEM tire radius?), because with rake, trail and tire radius, offset can be calculated using Tony Foale's software or the formula that has also been recently shared here.

Probably the hardest thing to measure will be fork length, because we have already seen that different people have obtained different measurements on supposedly the same types of forks. I suppose if we get enough measurements, we can derive an average... Fork spacing is also not a common measure. Anyway, thanks for the help.

(mello dude, the table is in Word at the moment, but as soon as I get back to London and can fill in some more of the blanks I'll post it in whatever format you like.)

(vfrcapn, once the table is completed, spec'ing actual bikes should be fairly easy, since we'll know the dimensions of all of their components. I recently purchased Tony Foale's complete Suspension Kinematics software, and from a few hours playing around with it I think I could even deal with various adjustments people had made to their bikes as well, given accurate measurements of what had been done.)

(I've also determined that my own FP will be quite a challenge to get back to "normal" geometry, given its current mods and the ones I intend to inflict upon it...:goofy:)

Ciao,

You bought Tony Foale software? Whoa! I would love to play with that!

MD

[JZH]

You bought Tony Foale software? Whoa! I would love to play with that!

It's registered to one CPU at a time, so definitely not shareware, but even without a registration key you can use the software in "demo" mode, which has most functions disabled (but a surprising number not)... See www.tonyfoale.com/suskin/MotorcycleSetup.zip He's also got several programs available as freeware on his site, such as the fork angle one (same programlet as in the setup software). Check out the "attitude" section--you can play with several of the values there, too, including raising the forks in the triples. I know the dollar's tanked, but it's "only" EUR99, which I thought was worth it for the kind of mods I like to do.

Ciao,

[JZH]

I've uploaded the latest version of the data to the Downloads section here.

One issue re measuring fork length: It matters (by as much as 11mm!) whether the pre-load is wound all the way in or all the way out. I took both measurements and entered the average into the table. This could explain why I've often seen different measurements cited for the same forks...

I've gone about as far as I can go entering data, so it's over to you guys. I have a couple more forks in my garage to measure (without taking anything apart!), such as RC30, CBR600RR3-4 and VFR750FL-P, but ran out of time. My method was to insert something of appropriate diameter (with an easy-to-see center) into the axle opening, tighten the clamp bolts, pump the fork a couple of times, ending with an extension and allowing the fork to settle. Then I measured from the top of the top cap to the center of the axle, both with preload full-in and full-out. HTH.

Ciao,

[JZH]

Still looking for reliable data for the CBR600F2, CBR600RR5-6, CBR600RR7-8, CBR900RRN-P, CBR900RRR-S, CBR900RRW-X and CBR1000RR6-7. If anyone has, or has access to, the OEM Honda Workshop Manuals for any of those bikes, please let me know. There are three specifications I need from each one in order to complete those sections of the chart (rake, trail & front master cylinder ID). Thanks!

In the meantime, for lack of anything better to do, I'm collecting (mainly) top yokes off eBay for various bikes in order to get the fork-spacing and fork offset measurements for the bikes I don't own or know to be identical to others for which measurements are known (how's that for dedication!)...

Any help would be appreciated! :D

Cheers,

[The Phantom]

John, I have no formal qualifications in psychology, but here's the news - you're nuts :beer:

I vaguely recall seeing something that indicated to me that Kawasaki ZX-something USD triples could work with Honda triples - they may be the same offset and centre-to-centre dimensions. Have you found anything to support that?

I'm gonna have to go spend a bomb at my motorcycle wrecker, in order to get them onside so I can root around in their racks. I still don't know when that will happen though, busy with little humans these days!

[JZH]

I vaguely recall seeing something that indicated to me that Kawasaki ZX-something USD triples could work with Honda triples - they may be the same offset and centre-to-centre dimensions. Have you found anything to support that?

I'm gonna have to go spend a bomb at my motorcycle wrecker, in order to get them onside so I can root around in their racks. I still don't know when that will happen though, busy with little humans these days!

No idea about the Kwacker-stuff, sorry. Maybe someone will come along... :P

As far as measuring odd shapes, I've come up with a plan: Fork spacing measurments off the triples requires that the clamping bolts be tightened around suitable fork tubes--otherwise the measurments could be off. So, I propose to mount some tubes in the clamp (fairly close to the top) and then measure between the insides of the two tubes. This gives an ID measurement, to which I will add 2x the radius of each tube (which is conveniently the known OD, e.g., 41mm, 43mm or 45mm), and the result should be a fairly accurate centre-to-centre measurment of fork spacing. This measurement could also be done with the forks on the bike.

Offset is a bit more complicated, but can be done with the same set-up as above. With the tubes clamped in the top yoke, clamp the tubes to a flat surface (or a straight edge, I suppose). Then measure from the flat surface to the OD of the steering stem. To this measurement, add 1/2 the OD of the fork tube and subtract 1/2 the ID of the stem hole in the top clamp. I've made a quick diagram and uploaded it here. I'd be less confident using this technique with the forks on the bike, but I might be able to get comfortable with it with practice...

The goal of the above is to get reasonably accurate measurements, but these are the best ideas I've got (that don't involve lathes and milling machines, that is!). Your comments appreciated.

Ciao,

[JZH]

FYI, I converted the (slightly updated) table to Excel and then to HTML and posted it here, in case anyone is interested...

Ciao,

[Joe Foe from Buffalo]

Very nice. Thank you!

[JZH]

Very nice. Thank you!

My pleasure...or my pain!

I've again revised and updated the chart, which can be found here. It contains data for 34 different models, to and including the '08 CBR1000RR and CB1000R (okay, currently lacking any data therefor!), and I've decided to add front wheel bearing dimensions, as this is critical for wheel swapping decisions. This means I could drop the front axle OD row, but hey, pixels are cheap...

(The current version has no definitions, but you can look at the earlier versions for those. It is easier for the beta versions to leave the definitions out. They will return when the chart is more or less finished.)

Ciao,

[vfrcapn]

Very nice. Thank you!

My pleasure...or my pain!

I've again revised and updated the chart, which can be found here. It contains data for 34 different models, to and including the '08 CBR1000RR and CB1000R (okay, currently lacking any data therefor!), and I've decided to add front wheel bearing dimensions, as this is critical for wheel swapping decisions. This means I could drop the front axle OD row, but hey, pixels are cheap...

(The current version has no definitions, but you can look at the earlier versions for those. It is easier for the beta versions to leave the definitions out. They will return when the chart is more or less finished.)

Ciao,

New link to the source file?

[JZH]

Not at the moment. Took it down, due to it having too many errors, causing me to lose confidence in it. I'm slowly adding data, but it will be a while yet before I will consider it ready for release again.

Ciao,

[Veefer800Canuck]

BUMP for Xmas!

[JZH]

BUMP for Xmas!

Troublemaker!

Since I've moved into the new house, I now have a garage (oh yeah), but it's still full of house-stuff so I have yet to move the garage-stuff from my garages two miles away. I'm going to try to sort that in the Spring, and then we'll be back on track...for next Christmas!

Ciao,

[Guest vfrrider]

JZH,

So where is this mythical garage. Socal or London? Just curious.

Larry

VFRrider

[Baileyrock]

Here is some Suzuki info from the TL forums.

http://www.tlzone.net/forums/tl1000s-tl1000r-forum/95228-definative-fork-swap-chart.html

[JZH]

So where is this mythical garage. Socal or London? Just curious.

Mythical?!? I'm offended. It's definitely in London--I did a thread on it a couple months back. No garage (or house) in the USA any more, but we are trying to buy another one ASAP. (Kinda have to, as our stuff's now in storage and costing me $600/mo.) :goofy:

Anyway, back here, tomorrow I need to take some measurements and do some drawings to determine what should go where in the garage. I've been doing the wife's bidding on the house so far and have not had a chance to sort out the "most important" part of the property...

Happy Boxing Bay, everybody!

Ciao,

[Guest vfrrider]

And a Happy Boxing (CN) Day to you to, sir.

Yes, a little time out of the honey do's for yourself is in order.

Sure you gotta buy another all the way over in Socal? Texas sure is nice. But business is business.

Have one for me. :goofy:

Larry

VFRrider

[Baileyrock]

Tok had some great info on his RC51/5th gen swap before the sudden end to the project! :goofy:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=29004&st=0

[CornerCarver]

Have we ever penciled in any of the relevant dimensions that JZH was going for when this was initiated?

Looking for data...

keith