5th Gen Fork Swap. Advice Please?

[Bren]

Hi All,

have been a bit of a lurker for a while now, I am truly amazed by some of the knowledge on this site. Yes I know you've heard it all before, gush gush gush, but some of the projects from people like Toro and Veefer and many others have inspired me to try some of these mods out myself. I used to look at the English site but its nowhere near as interesting or informative as here.

First on my wish list is the front end fork swap, several have done this mod with forks from R1's to SP1's and GSXR's. I would like to do the Sp1 swop.

I have searched the site extensively and found loads of useful stuff. But questions.

Ok I know I need the sp1 lower triple( sp2 doesnt work), 929 top yoke( upper triple to you lads) sp1 forks, brakes.

Do I need the sp1 wheel and fender also or will the vfr combo work?

How can I tell the difference between the sp1 triple and the sp2 triple?

Have found a set advertised but they claim its suitable for both the sp1 and sp2! Its also in German, I live in Austria now and am still learning the language and guess what, its a lot more difficult to learn than it looks. :P

May take a while to get all the bits together, as and when money allows, but I'm determined to do this. You lads sure get cheap parts over there. $50 for a 929 shock? If I can find one second hand to begin with I'll be lucky!

Any and all help and advice gratefully received.

Regards

Bren

[Veefer800Canuck]

Do I need the sp1 wheel and fender also or will the vfr combo work?

No, VFR fender will not fit. CBR 929, 954 or any year of RC51 will fit on directly. They are all the same part number.

Either OEM Honda or aftermarket (carbon fibre?), whichever you prefer.

How can I tell the difference between the sp1 triple and the sp2 triple?

SP2 lower triple has a much larger diameter steering stem. IIRC, 2002 is the first year for the SP2, so you'd have to find one earlier than that.

SP1 steering stem diameter at the bottom, where the lower bearing race seats is 35mm. SP2 is CONSIDERABLY larger, but by how much, I don't know.

You'll need the RC51 SP1 lower bearing, 35x55x14mm. Stock VFR lower bearing is 30x55x17 and will not fit.

Both SP1 and VFR upper steering bearings are the same. Use whichever.

Have found a set advertised but they claim its suitable for both the sp1 and sp2! Its also in German, I live in Austria now and am still learning the language and guess what, its a lot more difficult to learn than it looks. :P

Whoever is selling that is wrong. They cannot fit both. Stem diameter and bearings are way different, as are the RC51 frames between SP1 and SP2.

[AB-Oz]

G'day Bren,

There's a list of parts I used over here:

My VFRSP2

You'll also find some pix and other stuff there. Everything I did in doing this mod I learnt from this forum and my good mate from Team Turkey, RoY

Hope it helps!

[Bren]

Hi Veefer

thanks for the reply. Will have to get the G/F to talk to them to find out the year.

I have read about the difference in stem diameter, but visually is there any way to distinguish the 2? Do both have the gullwing on the lower or are they quite similar? Don't want to buy it and it turns out to be wrong and try then for a refund.

Also the upper bearings are the same for both the vfr and the sp1. So in theory I can leave the upper bearing in the frame and try, carefully, to remove the other part from the stem and re-use? possible or not gonna work in reality?

So I will need the fender from a 929/954 or sp1 but will the vfr wheel fit or do I need the sp1 wheel?

With this fork swop does it lower the front end of the bike or is the same as original height/geometery retained? If slightly lower front did you lower the rear to compensate? ( want to do the 929 shock as well ) I wouldn't want to do this as the seat height suits me perfectly, both feet flat on floor could even go a touch higher at seat.

Did you need to re-spring/valve the forks? I'm sure someone wrote here that the spring rate for the vfr and sp1 forks were the same, but please correct me if thats not right.

Thanks for the info, I'm sure this project may take a while to complete as I want to try and get as many bits together before I start. Limits downtime.

Bren

[AB-Oz]

I have read about the difference in stem diameter, but visually is there any way to distinguish the 2? Do both have the gullwing on the lower or are they quite similar? Don't want to buy it and it turns out to be wrong and try then for a refund.

I dont think so, apart from asking for a measurement of the bottom of the stem.

Also the upper bearings are the same for both the vfr and the sp1. So in theory I can leave the upper bearing in the frame and try, carefully, to remove the other part from the stem and re-use? possible or not gonna work in reality?

Yes to all those Q's, but why not splash out and buy new head bearings?

So I will need the fender from a 929/954 or sp1 but will the vfr wheel fit or do I need the sp1 wheel?

Fenders from SP1, SP2, 929, 954 are all the same except for colours. You will need an SP1 or SP2 wheel, rotors, axle, spacers. The VFR wheel does not fit.

With this fork swop does it lower the front end of the bike or is the same as original height/geometery retained? If slightly lower front did you lower the rear to compensate? ( want to do the 929 shock as well ) I wouldn't want to do this as the seat height suits me perfectly, both feet flat on floor could even go a touch higher at seat.

I got mine to about 8mm difference, 8mm shorter than the distance from head stock to axle than the stock VFR. I have an Ohlins shock up the back, with a 3mm shim. This setup sorks for me. Dunno anything about 929 shocks sorry.

Did you need to re-spring/valve the forks? I'm sure someone wrote here that the spring rate for the vfr and sp1 forks were the same, but please correct me if thats not right.

No they are not the same, the SP springs are stiffer. My SP2's are 1kg. I had .95 Raceteck in my stock VFR forks before that.

Thanks for the info, I'm sure this project may take a while to complete as I want to try and get as many bits together before I start. Limits downtime.

You're welcome, enjoy the journey!

It took me about 4 months to get all the bits and bobs required, and then 3 days to fit it all

[Bren]

Hi AB-Oz

your bike looks great am looking for that kind of finish on mine, I hadn't found that link before and believe me it wasn't from the lack of looking. Got to get off this site and do some work.

Now some questions for you.

Why did you use 954 front calipers? Was it for any special reason or just easier to source? Straight bolt-on?

Why the 954 upper triple? Thought the 929 was a better fit (clearance of clocks etc) for our model.

I've read the sp2 forks are shorter then the sp1, more similar to 929/954. What has it done to your steering, Quicker with better turn in, straight line stability?

How do find the reach to the bars with your new set-up? Is it more canted forward/backward or similiar to original? I would really like to have something that I can change for when I go long distance and for the track days.

Thanks again for the link, I know I'm following where others have boldly gone before but its great to get some advice on what not to or what definitly to do. :thumbsup:

Bren

Getting excited already. Want, no need shiny shiny things in my life.

[The Phantom]

I'm sure someone wrote here that the spring rate for the vfr and sp1 forks were the same, but please correct me if thats not right.

The R1 forks have the same springrate as the VFR forks.

Back to AB for the other stuff

Good luck with it Bren!

[Veefer800Canuck]

Hi Veefer

thanks for the reply. Will have to get the G/F to talk to them to find out the year.

I have read about the difference in stem diameter, but visually is there any way to distinguish the 2? Do both have the gullwing on the lower or are they quite similar? Don't want to buy it and it turns out to be wrong and try then for a refund.

Have them measure the lower part of the stem, right above the bearing race. If it's larger than 35mm, it's the wrong series.

Yes, they both are gullwing.

Also the upper bearings are the same for both the vfr and the sp1. So in theory I can leave the upper bearing in the frame and try, carefully, to remove the other part from the stem and re-use? possible or not gonna work in reality?

Yes, but I would advise you to think about tapered roller bearings. Better than the factory round rollers. Just don't torque them the same as the OE round bearings. 18 Ft/lbs is too much. 3-5 ft/lbs is better for tapered head bearings.

So I will need the fender from a 929/954 or sp1 but will the vfr wheel fit or do I need the sp1 wheel?

VFR wheel can be made to fit, VFRmonkey did that using Ducati 320mm rotors which had the bolt pattern redrilled and were also spaced outwards with washers.

Easiest is either an SP1 or SP2 wheel, either will fit easy.

With this fork swop does it lower the front end of the bike or is the same as original height/geometery retained? If slightly lower front did you lower the rear to compensate? ( want to do the 929 shock as well ) I wouldn't want to do this as the seat height suits me perfectly, both feet flat on floor could even go a touch higher at seat.

Front end does get lowered a bit, you can keep the rear at the height it is now, no need to lower it. Raising the rear is probably going to be necessaty to return steering quickness lost to the increased trail due to the RC/CBR triple clamps.

Did you need to re-spring/valve the forks? I'm sure someone wrote here that the spring rate for the vfr and sp1 forks were the same, but please correct me if thats not right.

Haven't done mine yet, it's on the list to get springs and valving suited to the VFR.

Why did you use 954 front calipers? Was it for any special reason or just easier to source? Straight bolt-on?

Why the 954 upper triple? Thought the 929 was a better fit (clearance of clocks etc) for our model.

954, 929 and CBR600F4i calipers should all bolt right onto the RC51 forks. I'mm 99% certain, someone back me up?

929/954 upper triples are the same. No difference.

I'm using an aftermarket VORTEX racing upper triple designed for the 929/954.

100_1265.JPG

[Veefer800Canuck]

[Bren]

The R1 forks have the same springrate as the VFR forks

.

Thanks Phantom, have read so many threads on the subject am starting to get my facts a bit muddled.

I've just recently become the very proud owner of a garage( its attatched to another building called our "new house") for the first time. For too many years I've been working on my bikes on the road outside the house, in the rain and cold, and dreamed of having a garage so I could really get into some serious bike dismantling, and of course re-building, without having to bring everything inside at night.

Ahhhh the simple things in life.

If I manage to get these forks and triple I'll post up some shiny, shiny photos.

Bren

[Bren]

Thanks for the info Veefer.

Do you know if cbr600RR calipers would fit? I quite like the look of them but need to keep in mind how long things will take if I have to get stuff purpose made, plus the cost.

I do like your Vortex top yoke. Might look into finding something similar.

To be honest I've been considering doing this since you posted your installation over on the bikers oracle site. Was well impressed with it then and am more impressed since I started lurking around here and have seen how many people have done similar. There seems to be a lot more people interested in modifying in the states than the UK, its almost frowned upon by some there.

Keep the advice coming lads and I'm sure I'll have more questions later.

Bren

[NYMBYSS]

hey rob why dont you give him a link to your write up i'm sure he'll find it useful,,, i did!!!!!! i'd do it but i don't know how. good luck on your project bren.

[AB-Oz]

ok, I'll try to answer the Questions from above.

929/954 upper triple are the same dimensions, they just look different coz the curves are different.

I used 954 calipers bolted straight on coz they were gold bling and matched the rotors. Its all about bling right? 954, 929 and CBR600F4i calipers all bolt right onto the RC51 forks as Rob says. So do SP1 and SP2 btw

SP1 and SP2 forks are the same length. I think it was young Rob up above this post who measured some for me way back when.

Reach to the bars is more or less the same, due to the 929 helibars. Slightly wider than stock, but you soon get used to it. Steering is definitely quicker once on the move, but slower at slow speeds coz the forks are wider. At speed I had to dial in more compression damping to get it stable. Mmmm, adjustable compression up front is nice

Good luck sourcing all the bits, I bought most of mine out of the US.

[Veefer800Canuck]

hey rob why dont you give him a link to your write up i'm sure he'll find it useful,,, i did!!!!!! i'd do it but i don't know how. good luck on your project bren.

I think he's already seen it, but here goes nothing:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28433

[Veefer800Canuck]

Do you know if cbr600RR calipers would fit? I quite like the look of them but need to keep in mind how long things will take if I have to get stuff purpose made, plus the cost.

They will definetly not fit, as they are radial mount calipers.

There are adaptors that one can buy to mount radial calipers on forks not originally intended for them, but they're pricey.

http://www.yoyodyneti.com/Category.aspx?CategoryID=2891

[The Phantom]

Do you know if cbr600RR calipers would fit? I quite like the look of them but need to keep in mind how long things will take if I have to get stuff purpose made, plus the cost.

They will definetly not fit, as they are radial mount calipers.

Wow, I don't often get a chance to get one up on Veefer! :goofy:

The first year or two of the CBR600RR sported conventional calipers...

[Baileyrock]

It will never match the shear Bling of a inverted fork swap, but for a fraction of the cost and work(my fav :goofy: ) you could just slap on a F4/F4i front end which allows you to use your VFR front wheel, rotors and axle. You'll have to get a set of Vtec trees or see how the F4/F4i ones match up.

You have fully adjustable front end with the same brakes as most Invert swaps at less than half the cost. :salesman:

Just a thought. :thumbsup:

[Darth Bling]

How can I tell the difference between the sp1 triple and the sp2 triple?

SP2 lower triple has a much larger diameter steering stem. IIRC, 2002 is the first year for the SP2, so you'd have to find one earlier than that.

SP1 steering stem diameter at the bottom, where the lower bearing race seats is 35mm. SP2 is CONSIDERABLY larger, but by how much, I don't know.

You'll need the RC51 SP1 lower bearing, 35x55x14mm. Stock VFR lower bearing is 30x55x17 and will not fit.

Both SP1 and VFR upper steering bearings are the same. Use whichever.

Actually, I believe the SP1 and SP2 have the same diameter lower bearing seat. It's the top seat that's much larger on the SP2.

Both the SP1 and SP2 use 35x55x14mm lower bearings, and the SP2 top bearing is also 35x55x14. The top bearing for the VFR and SP1 are 25x47x15mm.

And for some more info:

The SP1, SP2, 929, and 954 calipers are all slightly different (but completely interchangable). The SP1 and 929 calipers have 34 and 30mm pistons. The SP2 and 954 used 32 and 30 mm pistons. Of course, Honda offsetted the difference by changing the master cylinders in 2002. The SP1 and 929 used a 19mm (3/4") master cylinder, and the SP1 and 954 used 17.5mm (11/16") master cylinder (as does all years of the CBR1000RR and CBR600RR). The CBR600F4i used 34 and 32mm pistons in it's calipers with a 15.9mm (5/8") master cylinder. For reference, the 5th Gen VFR had a 12.7mm (1/2") master cylinder and the 6th gen used a 14mm master.

So, depending on what calipers you go with, you'll want to get a brake master cylinder that will match.

[vfrcapn]

Here's the visual on the different lower triples. SP1 has an aluminum steering stem(on the right), the SP2 is larger and is a steel stem.

SP1 and SP2 forks do differ in height slightly, SP2 being a little shorter. Reviews I've read say the SP2 forks were damped better from the factory.

[tok tokkie]

From the look of those photos it seems the SP2 has decidedly less suspension travel than the SP1. What do the specs say?

I used Gen5 wheel in SP1 forks. Have to have the SP1 axle & wheel bearings for SP1 (they are special 22mm bore bearings custom made for Honda). Have to make some spacers. I documented it in my thread 'Son of Frankenviffer' (do a search on that if you want to se it).

[enzed_viffer]

If you need a new rear shock, go for one on the Elka group buy. Sure it's dearer than a secondhand CBR shock, but it'd be a better shock in the long run.

[AB-Oz]

Hmm, well there you go SP2 are shorter than SP1...

[Veefer800Canuck]

Do you know if cbr600RR calipers would fit? I quite like the look of them but need to keep in mind how long things will take if I have to get stuff purpose made, plus the cost.

They will definetly not fit, as they are radial mount calipers.

Wow, I don't often get a chance to get one up on Veefer! :goofy:

The first year or two of the CBR600RR sported conventional calipers...

Oops, forgot about that. Well, I dunno if they will fit on the RC brake hangers, probebly they will, but measure to be sure.

I like the gold finished calipers over the black ones.

How can I tell the difference between the sp1 triple and the sp2 triple?

SP2 lower triple has a much larger diameter steering stem. IIRC, 2002 is the first year for the SP2, so you'd have to find one earlier than that.

SP1 steering stem diameter at the bottom, where the lower bearing race seats is 35mm. SP2 is CONSIDERABLY larger, but by how much, I don't know.

You'll need the RC51 SP1 lower bearing, 35x55x14mm. Stock VFR lower bearing is 30x55x17 and will not fit.

Both SP1 and VFR upper steering bearings are the same. Use whichever.

Actually, I believe the SP1 and SP2 have the same diameter lower bearing seat. It's the top seat that's much larger on the SP2.

Both the SP1 and SP2 use 35x55x14mm lower bearings, and the SP2 top bearing is also 35x55x14. The top bearing for the VFR and SP1 are 25x47x15mm.

Again, bested by the collective. I knew it was larger, and Darth Bling's info plus VFRcap'ns pictures tell the tale.

Now where's the :bow: emoticon..........

[The Phantom]

There sure are a lot of Dr Frankensteins here these days :goofy:

[SAFE-T]

You can also use the front brake calipers from the VTR1000F Superhawk or the CBR900RR....

[Bren]

Thanks again for the info lads, very helpful stuff. Trying to source parts I can imagine will take time as and when stuff comes up and as budget allows. Need to get more " husband points " before I start buying expensive bits. :goofy:

VFrcapn. I had found those pictures of yours before but didn't bookmark it and couldn't find them again. Doh! That was why I had decided on the sp1 swop as they are longer than the sp2's and I am keeping in mind that I may need to adjust the front either through lowering or raising the forks through the trees.

As the 954 calipers bolt straight in and are GOLD, shiny things again, I will try for them methinks. probably easiest option but with the desired effect.

As Baileyrock said I could always fit an f4/f4i front end. As with everything in life it will unfortunately come down to money. I would prefer the sp1, not just for bling, but its an amazing project. Parts availability and cost will decide for me in the end.

So, I am going to try and find out today what exactly these trees I've found are. Hopefully what I'm looking for.

Thanks everyone for the excellent and detailed info. :thumbsup:

Bren

Will let ye know