Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 3, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 3, 2017 I saved your observations FJ12Ryder on the air cooled GS1000G temperature drop and may I have your permission to quote your findings in other forums??? Thank 540Rat for the interesting opinions and test results of zinc in the oil as they were gleaned from his blog... perhaps his site is worth another look??? https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupedupsubie Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 When it comes to viscosity choices it generally depends on where you live. For the 4th Gen Vfr's there are 4 recommendations on oil viscosity. If you live and ride in weather below 35 degrees Fahrenheit then a 10w40 or 10w30 oil is recommended, I would probably go with 10w30 during the colder months then 10w40 during the warmer if temperatures get up around 90 degrees Fahrenheit. I personally could run 10w30 rear round due to living in Maine. If you live in warmer areas then you can run 20w40 as you don't need the low viscosity for cold starts. The first number in oil only matters for starting. The 3,000 hp diesel engines that move the vessel I work on show an oil temperature of around 190. They run the common diesel grade 15w40. Yes, lower viscosity oil do reduce drag on the engine. Steam turbines use two oil systems because of their design, first is actually high viscosity oil to lift the shaft off the bearings then a lower viscosity oil once the oil wedge forms. The switch to a lower viscosity oil is for less drag on the shaft. In the end if you are serious about getting every last bit of horsepower out of your engine then monitoring your temperatures is what you will want to do. I just wouldn't go outside of the manufacturers recommendations. There is a lot of good basic knowledge in 540Rat's blog, but it is all information that most advanced high school automotive classes teach. It is the whole oil test and ranking that is off to me. He needs to create a no B.S. post that specifically outlines his test setup and calculations in order for me to actually believe what he found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted September 4, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 4, 2017 Heck, you can quote the hell out of me. And I was surprised that it happened, but it does support what other people have observed over the years: higher viscosity leads to higher temperatures with all things being equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 4, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 4, 2017 4 hours ago, coupedupsubie said: When it comes to viscosity choices it generally depends on where you live. For the 4th Gen Vfr's there are 4 recommendations on oil viscosity My 94 RC45 has the same viscosity choices as your 4th Gen but currently Honda only recommends a 10W30 360 days a year regardless of outside temperature for all their new bikes including the 8th Gen VFR800... so technically speaking you could run a 30wt all year like I do... Yes I run a 5W30w all year because it gives the right flow at the normal engine operating temperature of 212ºF and that would be the viscosity of 10 at operating temps... so that means for every 1000 rpms increase of oil pressure increases another 10 psi... a 30wt flows more oil at higher rpms which flows more oil between the critical bearings which carries away more heat and I'm not wasting HP just pumping oil through the blow off valve... 40wt and 50wt builds pressure at the expense of flow and I wastes HP by blowing oil through the pressure relief valve... 30wt psi 1000 10 2000 20 3000 30 4000 40 5000 50 6000 60 7000 70 8000 80 9000 90 10000 99 11000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve 40wt psi 1000 12 2000 24 3000 36 4000 48 5000 72 6000 84 7000 96 8000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve 9000 99 10000 99 11000 99 50wt psi 1000 15 2000 30 3000 45 4000 60 5000 75 6000 90 7000 99 blow off by the pressure relief valve 8000 99 9000 99 10000 99 11000 99 You see I went to trouble to installed a digital oil pressure gauge on MrRC45 to know... 30w at 8000 rpms 82 Psi close enough to perfect... We should learn that flow is what really lubricates our engines not pressure... pressure and flow are inverse proportional... you can have pressure at the expense of flow... an increased in flow is an increased in cooling by the oil... an increase in flow works harder to separate the engine parts that are under very high stress... an increase in flow means less internal drag and more HP at the rear wheel... its no brainier that 30 weights flow more than 40... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted September 4, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 4, 2017 I agree with most of what you're putting out there, but I tend to disagree to a certain extent that flow is the be-all and end-all, and pressure doesn't matter. A roller bearing engine will be very high flow and low pressure because the rollers don't need any pressure to speak of. Unlike a plain bearing engine, which will fail if you have very low pressure and high flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupedupsubie Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 4 hours ago, FJ12Ryder said: I agree with most of what you're putting out there, but I tend to disagree to a certain extent that flow is the be-all and end-all, and pressure doesn't matter. A roller bearing engine will be very high flow and low pressure because the rollers don't need any pressure to speak of. Unlike a plain bearing engine, which will fail if you have very low pressure and high flow. I think what BLS is saying is that there is a point where the flow is optimized while enough pressure is maintained. Plain bearings work mostly off an oil wedge that is formed due to the rotation of the shaft, the importance of pressure is to ensure these bearings have oil flow through them keeping them cool. Most of the wear on a plain bearing takes place at start-up. Many large(power generation/locamotive/marine) engines run a prelube pump to combat this. 15 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said: My 94 RC45 has the same viscosity choices as your 4th Gen but currently Honda only recommends a 10W30 360 days a year regardless of outside temperature for all their new bikes including the 8th Gen VFR800... so technically speaking you could run a 30wt all year like I do... Most newer vehicles run lighter weight oils. Subaru's FA20 that goes in the BRZ/Toyota GT86 runs 0w20, as well as the 5.3L from GM. The newer Hemi's from Chrysler run 5w20. Tighter tolerances and better oils are dictating lighter oils be used. I would not run straight weight oil in any engine unless it had a lube oil heater to keep it warm constantly, Maine has too drastic of temperature swings. I have gotten up and brought my motorcycle out to get ready for a ride with it in the low 40's, a straight 30wt would be on the thick side for my piece of mind. I run Amsoil motorcycle specific 10W40(I don't pay full price and it gets ordered with a bunch of other oil). If needed I can get it at any NAPA store and a lot of small power sports shops carry it. I do realize that I can run some regular oils but Amsoil has been proven trustworthy through lots of abuse in all different types of engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 6, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 6, 2017 http://www.youtube.com/embed/E_iN_IJpSIU Watch the Amsoil video where the rep states that Mobil 1 0w30 is the base oil to all their auto synthetics and Mobil 1 5w30 is the base to all their diesel synthetics... in their view M1 is the premium POA... Their motorcycle specific oil is either one or the other or a combination of both... so spending $12.95 quart for Amsoil is a lot since the base is $5.40 a quart Mobil 1... I decided to test whether a motorcycle specific oil produced better numbers than a Passenger Car Motor Oil (PCMO)... Selected were Asmoil MCT 10w30 and Mobil 1 AFE 0w30... granted the miles are low but they are miles not in moderation either more like tracks speeds which simulates the distant my customers cover in a year of racing or track days... my customers are consummate riders with bank to afford exotic homologated racers All in all the Blackstone lab results were about the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhenley17 Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Nobody seems to keep Rotella T6 10W-30 on the shelf. I can find it in 5W-40 all day long, but I wanted to directly compare shifting to what I get from the Motul that's in it right now. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 11, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 11, 2017 A 5W40 is a newer oil than a 10W30... 5W pours more freely at lower temps than a 10W... VOA (Virgin Oil Analysis) are below for 5W40 and 10W30 Rotella and Motul 5W30 to show you what exactly is in the oil you're buying... I can clarify the numbers if you wish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhenley17 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 I'm just concerned that the higher viscosity at operating temperature will raise operating temperatures. If it were a 5W-30, I'd have just picked it up. It seems T6 only comes in 5W-40 and, I think, 15W-40, though. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 12, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 12, 2017 If you have your heart set on a 30 I can personally vouch for Mobil 1 5w30... please note its the basic SN 5W30 its not the High Mileage nor the Advance Fuel Economy nor Extended Performance 5W30... I posted a VOA for comparison... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhenley17 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 I probably never even looked at that as I figured the only Mobile One I could use was 4T. If 5W-40 will work, I'm good with it. The manual seems dumbed down compared to older bikes, though, and doesn't give me the weights I can use in various temperature ranges, just says plainly "10W-30."Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Forbes Posted September 12, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 12, 2017 If you have your heart set on a 30 I can personally vouch for Mobil 1 5w30... please note its the basic SN 5W30 its not the High Mileage nor the Advance Fuel Economy nor Extended Performance 5W30... I posted a VOA for comparison... It's the only oil that goes into my V8, will also go into project bike 'when' it's running....Sent from my HTC_PN071 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer HughJebolzak Posted September 12, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 12, 2017 I haven't read this whole thread but I did mention this earlier so listen up... The 5W30 pictured above is "Energy Conserving". The round circle on the back states "Resource Conserving" Same thing. Any oil with this on the label contains friction modifiers which are NOT to be used in wet clutch motorcycle engines. That's one reason why the manufacturers recommendations start with a 10 weight oil and go up. This is a universal rule for oils in motorcycles. Unless things have changed in the last year, it still is. Get one approved for motorcycle engines. Your clutch will thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhenley17 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 Didn't really pay attention to the picture, but for everything I consider, except Motul, I make sure it's JASO MA rated.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 13, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 13, 2017 14 hours ago, HughJebolzak said: I haven't read this whole thread but I did mention this earlier so listen up... The 5W30 pictured above is "Energy Conserving". The round circle on the back states "Resource Conserving" Same thing. Any oil with this on the label contains friction modifiers which are NOT to be used in wet clutch motorcycle engines. You're welcome to warn against it but Energy Conserving or Resource Conserving are not additives... its an API test that this "oil may result is an overall saving of fuel in the vehicle fleet as a whole"... there is nothing new in the oil to defeat a wet clutch... what is confusing the issue is the fact that all motorcycle wet clutches will reach a point in their life and start to slip EC oil or non EC oil... have you noticed that no one complains about clutch slip when the bike is new??? its around the 27K to 57K range as normal containments build up to point you may find the clutch begins to loose its grip... this is usually discovered by the owner during WFO (Wide Fooking Open)throttle like during a quick overtake or at a track day... in error one can blame the EC oil but its really the contaminants on the clutch plates... So the belief that we should stay away from Energy Conserving oil is on shaky ground... fact is I've been using Mobil 1 30 Energy Conserving since 98 in Mr.RC45 with no clutch slipping due to oil being certified 10% freer flowing than non EC oil... and it sports a tall first gear good for 90mph that's known to incinerate clutch plates... 14 hours ago, HughJebolzak said: That's one reason why the manufacturers recommendations start with a 10 weight oil and go up. Negative... API ranks the first number 10 and the letter W from the newest to the oldest on its ability to lube your engine during critical start up 0w 5W 10W 15W 20W I Technical speaking the first number (the "10" in 10w30) is only a relative number which basically indicates how easily it will allow an engine to "turn over" at low temperatures. It is NOT a viscosity reference. In other words, a 10w30 is NOT a 10 weight oil in cold temperatures and a 30 weight oil in warm temperatures... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 13, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 13, 2017 18 hours ago, jhenley17 said: I probably never even looked at that as I figured the only Mobile One I could use was 4T. If 5W-40 will work, I'm good with it. The manual seems dumbed down compared to older bikes, though, and doesn't give me the weights I can use in various temperature ranges, just says plainly "10W-30." The reason Honda plainly states a 10W30 because thin is in and thick is out when it comes to longevity with modern oils... a 5W40 will work but it will cost you 1 to 2 HP and raised operating temps with 0.0 benefit to longevity... Don't forget your options include 10W30 5W30 and 0W30 Quote 540Rat SECTION 2 – MOTOR OIL VISCOSITY SELECTION THE BENEFITS OF USING THINNER OIL: • Thinner oil flows quicker at cold start-up to begin lubricating critical engine components much more quickly than thicker oil can. Most engine wear takes place during cold start-up before oil flow can reach all the components. So, quicker flowing thinner oil will help reduce start-up engine wear, which is actually reducing wear overall. • The more free flowing thinner oil at cold start-up, is also much less likely to cause the oil filter bypass to open up, compared to thicker oil. Of course if the bypass opened up, that would allow unfiltered oil to be pumped through the engine. The colder the ambient temperature, and the more rpm used when the engine is cold, the more important this becomes. • Thinner oil also flows more at normal operating temperatures. And oil FLOW is lubrication, but oil pressure is NOT lubrication. Oil pressure is only a measurement of resistance to flow. Running thicker oil just to up the oil pressure is the wrong thing to do, because that only reduces oil flow/lubrication. Oil pressure in and of itself, is NOT what we are after. • The more free flowing thinner oil will also drain back to the oil pan quicker than thicker oil. So, thinner oil can help maintain a higher oil level in the oil pan during operation, which keeps the oil pump pickup from possibly sucking air during braking and cornering. • The old rule of thumb that we should have at least 10 psi for every 1,000 rpm is perfectly fine. Running thicker oil to achieve more pressure than that, will simply reduce oil flow for no good reason. It is best to run the thinnest oil we can, that will still maintain at least the rule of thumb oil pressure. And one of the benefits of running a high volume oil pump, is that it will allow us to enjoy all the benefits of running thinner oil, while still maintaining sufficient oil pressure. A high volume oil pump/thinner oil combo is preferred over running a standard volume oil pump/thicker oil combo. Because oil “flow” is our goal for ideal oiling, NOT simply high oil pressure. • Oil flow is what carries heat away from internal engine components. Those engine components are DIRECTLY oil cooled, but only INdirectly water cooled. And better flowing thinner oil will keep critical engine components cooler because it carries heat away faster. If you run thicker oil than needed, you will drive up engine component temps. For example: Plain bearings, such as rod and main bearings are lubricated by oil flow, not by oil pressure. Oil pressure is NOT what keeps these parts separated. Oil pressure serves only to supply the oil to this interface. The parts are kept apart by the incompressible hydrodynamic liquid oil wedge that is formed as the liquid oil is pulled in between the spinning parts. As long as sufficient oil is supplied, no wear can occur. In addition to this, the flow of oil through the bearings is what cools them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer FJ12Ryder Posted September 13, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 13, 2017 You can quote that guy all you want, but I still don't buy his schtick. Some of it is common knowledge, and some of it is his own content. All you have to do is separate the good stuff from the dross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dustin Posted September 13, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 13, 2017 BLS, I am genuinely curious what you think the reason is manufacturers specifically state things like this in manuals and documentation: API SG or higherexcept oilslabeled as energyconserving on thecircular APIservice labelDo not use API SH or higher oilsdisplaying a circular API ‘‘energyconserving’’ service label on thecontainer. They may affect lubricationand clutch performance. Having not ever used an oil in my bikes that wasn't JASO-MA certified, I don't have any evidence or experience that would counter what Honda warns against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JZH Posted September 14, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 14, 2017 Obviously, the engineers at Honda Motor Co. are inferior engineers, compared with Mr. (Anonymouse) Rat, and his super-secret testing methodology... Not that I have any evidence or interest against the guy, and he may very well be completely accurate in everything he does and says about motor oil, but his people skills are somewhat deficient. Ciao, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 19, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 19, 2017 On 9/13/2017 at 4:49 PM, Dustin said: BLS, I am genuinely curious what you think the reason is manufacturers specifically state things like this in manuals and documentation: Having not ever used an oil in my bikes that wasn't JASO-MA certified, I don't have any evidence or experience that would counter what Honda warns against. Genuinely speaking Honda states many warnings in their manuals... key word is MAY which cuts the odds to 50%... examples of the word MAY are... Warning The exhaust contains poisonous carbon monoxide gas that MAY cause loss of consciousness and MAY lead to death. Warning Used engine oil MAY cause skin cancer if repeatedly left in contact with the skin for prolonged periods. Warning Energy conserving oil MAY effect performance. Warning Modification of the motorcycle, or removal of original equipment, MAY render the vehicle unsafe or illegal. I think Honda's lawyers are genuinely concerned for our safety and that we don't gripe too much about the performance of their motorcycles given the odds of their stated warnings. Contrast the MAY warnings with Honda warnings stating the key WILL which sets the odds at 100%. Warning Spilling DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid on painted, plastic or rubber parts WILL damage them. Warning Never use an air hose or dry brush to clean brake assemblies. Use an OSHA-approved vacuum cleaner or alternate method approved by OSHA. Inhaled asbestos fibers WILL cause respiratory disease and cancer. Warning Failure to service your motorcycle with oil WILL result in no oil pressure and WILL cause the engine to seize. So we all know for a fact the engine WILL not live without oil pumping through its veins... some of us also know for a fact EC oil WILL not defeat a clutch in good working order... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dustin Posted September 19, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 19, 2017 Thanks for the explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted September 19, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted September 19, 2017 3 hours ago, Dustin said: Thanks for the explanation. You're welcome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Lots of good info here, and a bit too deep for the average guy. I have been running 5-40 T6 or 15-40 in bikes where 10-40 is the recommended oil. I routinely got blackstone UOA's and Synthetic doesn't seem worth the extra bit for me. I change on a 5000 mile basis with automotive oil filters every other. I recommend everyone choose an oil and get lab results using the blackstone recommended UOA reports until they find an oil that they like. The VFR is my first MC to ask for 10-30 - I'll be using Mobil1. https://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/FilterXRef.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Bent Posted November 4, 2017 Member Contributer Share Posted November 4, 2017 I really do love oil threads. They've very suspenseful. The result is always the same for me. I just use motorcycle oil in my motorcycles, car oils in my cars, and in my other motorized devices, whatever is recommended by the manufacturer. Never experienced an oil problem in my life of engine ownership. Simply amazing....not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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