Revised Stator From Honda?

[Auspanglish]

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/66045-urethra-i-found-it/page-4?hl=%2Borange+%2Bconnector#entry786420

[Knight]

I've no problems being wrong

Good me too. We do the experiment and the result is what it is, knowledge gained. Hopefully we discover something new. That would be awesome.

Your experiment sounds ok, but there are a few issues I can think of.

1. Can we load it and unload it enough that we will see a difference. Ideally unloaded, we would disconnect the entire bike load (i.e. run on battery) from the output of the R/R. However, I would have to look at the R/R schematic to know if doing this will result in damage to the bike. I think ground needs to stay connected (unless grounding the R/R chassis is enough) but maybe the +12v lead can be disconnected. Barring this, maybe we remove one high current circuit - like pulling the headlight fuse.

Yes I went through some of the same thought process. I like how you want to incorporate the entire bike load, which means no need for a high-draw accessory. If we can validate that this is alright to do, are you thinking to connect the regulator to a small external load, in order to complete the circuit?

Now as that is somewhat radical, maybe there are enough accessory fuses/circuits available to just pull fuses for this test (?) Yes like you mentioned, headlights off vs. bright lights on is quite a swing in power. Unfortunately, one may not know the validity of the test until the test is over. Or if seeing no effect then one wants to take the test to an extreme to validate if the result is the same under all conditions.

Rhetorical right now: Is an accurate tach required or is the bike's tach good enough for this purpose?

If this could be done with the bike running throughout, then we could actually measure changes in engine speed vs. load. If the stator were to release energy the engine would actually speed up under load. No change or an actual change is a data point, alongside the power measurements. Of course there is the challenge of not necessarily knowing if the ECU interfered with engine speed.

Lastly, I would not know if a power meter has any challenges based on the bike config, wiring, etc. Do you know anything about these? Now I'm going to start looking for handheld power meters.

[MadScientist]

Alright -

So we are on the right track. We need as big of a swing in load so that any variance that happens is large enough to reduce doubts as to the significance of the finding. Are we working with a 5th or 6th gen, just so I'm looking at the right wiring diagram?

Back to my list. So issue 2

Permanent magnet generators (PMG hereafter) at constant rpm should behave as a constant current source, but not ideal (losses, friction, resistance, heat). The question is whether the R/R blows off a constant power or a constant current. The problem herein lies, how to measure the voltage drop across the circuit without disturbing the circuit (or resistance of the live circuit - can't measure it unpowered because of semiconductors).

So on to your rhetorical tach question and current measuring device -

The AC generator is going to have a frequency equal to engine RPM/60. Unless I've totally screwed that up, then at appx 3600 RPM we should have 60 hz (same US supply). A lot of the rest of the world uses 50hz. As such, I think that most commonly available inductive current clamps should be fairly accurate between 50-60hz (This is a BIG assumption). If you separate and measure 1 line, then we don't have to worry about 3 phases; but, I can't rule out that other lines in the vicinity will skew the measurement.

BUT, that only gives us current. That is why we need either resistance of the circuit or voltage drop (both under load and unloaded) to determine how much POWER is being generated in the AC circuit.

If you are doing these experiments, I want you to be VERY careful, especially since we will be working with significantly powerful live circuits. Also, document everything you can with video. Most people will be very skeptical, regardless of the findings, as this will shift the paradigm of R/R understanding of the average motorcyclist. There definitely exists the potential to ruin expensive things (meters, bikes, your house) or worse than that, injure or kill you.

The more I read, and look at the R/R circuit, the better chance I have of being wrong. I'll say that I will be surprised, EITHER way.

[Baileyrock]

The 02 VFR and maybe early 03's had a different stator & RR set-up that from what I understood wasn't allowed to fully charge until higher rpm's. So in stop and go traffic and around it didn't charge the battery as needed. Honda offered a free upgrade for many years, I actually missed it on my 02, which knock on wood has over 100k miles on it.

I've been running heated grips, radar, Gerbing jacket liner and occasionally heated socks w/o issue. Never running High Beams when using any of these aftermarket items as the system would drop down into the mid 12v numbers if I did.

So from the sound of it, by having all this extra load I've avoided shedding any extra heat that would have there w/o them!

BR

PS glad you boyz became more civilized as the thread moved on.

[MadScientist]

Oh yeah, last thing. Are you running a stock R/R or MOSFET?

I didn't think I was uncivilized. If so, apologies. And question everything, always.

[Rush2112]

I've no problems being wrong

Good me too. We do the experiment and the result is what it is, knowledge gained. Hopefully we discover something new. That would be awesome.

Your experiment sounds ok, but there are a few issues I can think of.

1. Can we load it and unload it enough that we will see a difference. Ideally unloaded, we would disconnect the entire bike load (i.e. run on battery) from the output of the R/R. However, I would have to look at the R/R schematic to know if doing this will result in damage to the bike. I think ground needs to stay connected (unless grounding the R/R chassis is enough) but maybe the +12v lead can be disconnected. Barring this, maybe we remove one high current circuit - like pulling the headlight fuse.

Yes I went through some of the same thought process. I like how you want to incorporate the entire bike load, which means no need for a high-draw accessory. If we can validate that this is alright to do, are you thinking to connect the regulator to a small external load, in order to complete the circuit?

Now as that is somewhat radical, maybe there are enough accessory fuses/circuits available to just pull fuses for this test (?) Yes like you mentioned, headlights off vs. bright lights on is quite a swing in power. Unfortunately, one may not know the validity of the test until the test is over. Or if seeing no effect then one wants to take the test to an extreme to validate if the result is the same under all conditions.

Rhetorical right now: Is an accurate tach required or is the bike's tach good enough for this purpose?

If this could be done with the bike running throughout, then we could actually measure changes in engine speed vs. load. If the stator were to release energy the engine would actually speed up under load. No change or an actual change is a data point, alongside the power measurements. Of course there is the challenge of not necessarily knowing if the ECU interfered with engine speed.

Lastly, I would not know if a power meter has any challenges based on the bike config, wiring, etc. Do you know anything about these? Now I'm going to start looking for handheld power meters.

Knight - what do you mean by a power meter? Are you referring to a inline current meter or a clamping device or something else?

MS - I didn't do the math but did you take into account the three legs of the stator when calculating hertz or are you looking at monitoring one leg?

All - is the proposed experimental design valid if there is a large resistor in the R/R path to ground that results in lower current when the other paths of power consumption are removed since the remaining path has higher resistance than the normally operating parallel paths? Or would this only effect the downstream side of the R/R and not the stator?

[MadScientist]

Rush - I think he is envisioning one of the clamp style inductive current meters. I think we can later measure RMS volts between stator output and ground. Of course this means getting in contact with the wire somewhere, which would be the more dangerous part of this operation. There is no way to measure voltage, so far as I am aware, without probing the circuit. Some "power meters" will give you power under the assumption that the current measured is on a 120/240v line. Of course you need both, or resistance of the circuit, to calculate power.

No I didn't take into account the three legs. I assumed this would be done probing one leg at a time. There are inductive clamp style meters that can measure 3 phase current, but they are considerably more expensive.

I thought about the large resistor possibility, but without detailed schematics of the "control circuit" that many of these R/Rs use (and nicely "black box" on their schematics) I don't know if a reference voltage (battery) must be downstream also. The conservative alternative I can come up with is to remove all non-essential circuits (headlights, running lights, dash, etc..) for the "unloaded" trial then add them back and turn on the brights for the "loaded" trial.

[Knight]

Yes, whatever I said, I was thinking an inductive ammeter.

I studied and worked as an EE a while back, but today I am a systems analyst. I am completely detached from theory and math and just see this stuff on a level of input/processing/output. So I appreciate the calculations and direction from you guys.

About the frequency of operation: Great catch. I was not thinking about the range where an inductive meter would work. Paying attention to this will assure the experiment time is not wasted.

MS you said, "Permanent magnet generators (PMG hereafter) at constant rpm should behave as a constant current source."

Thus I imagine the primary experiment to be loading and unloading the system and measuring the current between the stator and rectifier. The power stored in the stator is in inductance form and releases as current. When the current changes based on load, that proves that full power is not being supplied to the circuit but instead is being stored. If there is no change in current then all power is being supplied all of the time.

What if the wires cannot be separated enough per the meter requirements? Aha, I see a youtube video on use of these, and the separation required is nothing. So fields external to the clamp are not affecting the reading inside the clamp. Phew.

Yes it would be nice to also figure out the power dissipated by the R/R but it cannot be done without disconnecting anything, right?

Regarding three phases: Never make assumptions in an experiment such as "the system is balanced." I measure everything. By measuring all three phases I would detect that a phase of my stator is burned out, and then I should not proceed until fixed. So yes, if possible I would record all three phases until several tries where it becomes well-known that the coils are matched as they are supposed to be.

Am I off base here? If not I may have an experiment that I can finagle without risks.

You asked about the bike. I have a 1999. If the systems have changed dramatically from 5th gen to 5th then then the results could be very different from bike to bike. However I anticipate the operational aspect of this remains consistent through all bikes.

[roadrunner]

I called a dealership the other day about the compatibility of 6th gen stator to a new 8th gen stator. No surprise the connectors are different. This isn't a concern to me since I hard wire the connectors. I asked if the stator will work if I went this route and if it would be considered an upgrade in either longevity or output he said he would have to call corporate. I just got off the line with him and he said Honda told him "the ecu are different on the bikes so it would not work, and Honda does not recommend it". I asked how would it matter about the ecu if the stator is just 3 wires coming out and going straight to the rr. He then said I could try it but unless I have extra money lying around that I should just stick to the 6th gen stator. What are your guys' thoughts?

[CandyRedRC46]

FFS that whas painful to read. Do more research. You are way off base.

Assuming a conservative 50% stator efficiency rating, the 497 watt output of the VFR stator at 5000 RPMs, would require about 1000 watts of mechanical input. 1000 watts is 1.34 HP. 1.34 HP on a 108 HP bike is nothing "dramatic" lol.

And again, please do some research on the difference between shunt and series RR's, before spewing out more misinformation. Thanks.

I corrected that one word, great.

Of course despite my quantification, the experiment was true and valid, and proved your obnoxiously condescending post to be completely wrong anyway.

You seemed to indicate that the VFR has a shunt regulator and the stator is under 100% load all the time. Have I misinterpreted any of this?

If no, see myth #1 here which you are propagating:

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators

Sorry about your feelings knight.

Anyways moving on.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

A lot of misconception in this thread.

Just to clarify, a shunt R/R loads the stator 100% ALL the time. It is basic physics, a magnet moving in relation to a wire will induce a current. The only way to stop the current is to OPEN the circuit. A shunt regulator, does not do this. In fact, running more accessories is actually better for a shunt type regulator in that the regulator no longer has to dissipate all of the excess power as heat.

The only way to reduce load a stator is to vary the magnetic field (thus making an alternator) or to use a switching/series style regulator that opens the coil circuits.

I have tried the compufire series RR and also the new Shindengen sh775 RR. It was really cool to watch the idle speed drop down as you apply more electrical load on the charging system. Flipping on the high beams would show an immediate drop of 100 RPMs. The same for applying turns signals/brake lights and radiator fan etc. As you already know, this doesn't happen with the factory RR or upgraded MOSFET rr's.

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

I've no problems being wrong

Good me too. We do the experiment and the result is what it is, knowledge gained. Hopefully we discover something new. That would be awesome.

Your experiment sounds ok, but there are a few issues I can think of.

1. Can we load it and unload it enough that we will see a difference. Ideally unloaded, we would disconnect the entire bike load (i.e. run on battery) from the output of the R/R. However, I would have to look at the R/R schematic to know if doing this will result in damage to the bike. I think ground needs to stay connected (unless grounding the R/R chassis is enough) but maybe the +12v lead can be disconnected. Barring this, maybe we remove one high current circuit - like pulling the headlight fuse.

Yes I went through some of the same thought process. I like how you want to incorporate the entire bike load, which means no need for a high-draw accessory. If we can validate that this is alright to do, are you thinking to connect the regulator to a small external load, in order to complete the circuit?

Now as that is somewhat radical, maybe there are enough accessory fuses/circuits available to just pull fuses for this test (?) Yes like you mentioned, headlights off vs. bright lights on is quite a swing in power. Unfortunately, one may not know the validity of the test until the test is over. Or if seeing no effect then one wants to take the test to an extreme to validate if the result is the same under all conditions.

Rhetorical right now: Is an accurate tach required or is the bike's tach good enough for this purpose?

If this could be done with the bike running throughout, then we could actually measure changes in engine speed vs. load. If the stator were to release energy the engine would actually speed up under load. No change or an actual change is a data point, alongside the power measurements. Of course there is the challenge of not necessarily knowing if the ECU interfered with engine speed.

Lastly, I would not know if a power meter has any challenges based on the bike config, wiring, etc. Do you know anything about these? Now I'm going to start looking for handheld power meters.

Knight you talked about testing to see if increased electrical load will show up with an rpm drop on the tach?:

"Yes I went through some of the same thought process. I like how you want to incorporate the entire bike load, which means no need for a high-draw accessory. If we can validate that this is alright to do, are you thinking to connect the regulator to a small external load, in order to complete the circuit?

Now as that is somewhat radical, maybe there are enough accessory fuses/circuits available to just pull fuses for this test (?) Yes like you mentioned, headlights off vs. bright lights on is quite a swing in power. Unfortunately, one may not know the validity of the test until the test is over. Or if seeing no effect then one wants to take the test to an extreme to validate if the result is the same under all conditions.

Rhetorical right now: Is an accurate tach required or is the bike's tach good enough for this purpose?

If this could be done with the bike running throughout, then we could actually measure changes in engine speed vs. load. If the stator were to release energy the engine would actually speed up under load. No change or an actual change is a data point, alongside the power measurements. Of course there is the challenge of not necessarily knowing if the ECU interfered with engine speed.

Lastly, I would not know if a power meter has any challenges based on the bike config, wiring, etc. Do you know anything about these? Now I'm going to start looking for handheld power meters."

I stated earlier that it shows up with a series RR and does not show on the factory or an upgraded mosfet RR:

"I have tried the compufire series RR and also the new Shindengen sh775 RR. It was really cool to watch the idle speed drop down as you apply more electrical load on the charging system. Flipping on the high beams would show an immediate drop of 100 RPMs. The same for applying turns signals/brake lights and radiator fan etc. As you already know, this doesn't happen with the factory RR or upgraded MOSFET rr's."

.

[Knight]

Knight you talked about testing to see if increased electrical load will show up with an rpm drop on the tach?:

I found this bold point from that post. If there is more let me know as I may have missed it. (It is difficult to read.)

No. Increasing the electrical load and increasing the rpms as the stator is allowed to go from 100% charge with surplus energy, to releasing some of the energy.

You can verify as I am guessing here: It sounds like the series regulator is open-circuiting the stator. So it goes from zero induced current, to connecting the stator and inducing current, and thus the engine will slow down as the stator becomes harder to spin.

In the case of the oem R/R, the stator is inducing maximum current, but only some of that current is being used (well this is what we are investigating.) With no place for the current to go, the stator exerts a force on the engine in the opposite direction. Now load down the electrical system. You discharge the stator, and the stator stops pushing backwards. I want to say this is "back emf" but I have read that is not correct. One blogging engineer corrected that phrase and instead called it "back torque".

The experiment you provide, that the engine does not slow down when heavily loading the OEM electrical system is key to this next experiment. It means that the stator is already fully induced. So, is all of that energy flowing to the R/R (most of the population says says yes), or is only a percentage of the energy flowing to the R/R and the rest still still stored in the stator (I said yes.) If stored in the stator, the stator is exerting it's own force in the opposite direction of spin. Discharge the stator, and the engine would theoretically speed up.

A lot of this back-torque is released as heat. This exact phenomenon makes me think it is the biggest reason for the stator being in an oil bath. Generating a couple hundred watts with air fins, one would think that would provide sufficient cooling, no?

We may only be able to discharge the stator with a short, and not any sort of load, because it is designed to power up fast. Thus there may be no measurable change in engine speed when releasing some of the stator energy. But just theory and guesses...

[Rectaltronics]

I called a dealership the other day about the compatibility of 6th gen stator to a new 8th gen stator. No surprise the connectors are different. This isn't a concern to me since I hard wire the connectors. I asked if the stator will work if I went this route and if it would be considered an upgrade in either longevity or output he said he would have to call corporate. I just got off the line with him and he said Honda told him "the ecu are different on the bikes so it would not work, and Honda does not recommend it". I asked how would it matter about the ecu if the stator is just 3 wires coming out and going straight to the rr. He then said I could try it but unless I have extra money lying around that I should just stick to the 6th gen stator. What are your guys' thoughts?

My thought is that if you think just changing out the stator without doing anything else equates to an upgrade, you need to do a lot more reading to get a basic understanding of what changed in the 8th Gen.

[Rush2112]

Knight - I think what you will find is the bikes are engineered with a known minimum expected electrical draw e.g. lights, ecu, dash, ignition, fuel pump, battery charge, etc. The R/R shunts the minimal additional available excess power to ground (for discussion maybe 100 to 150 watts, 7 - 10 amps), if additional load is added less is shunted to ground. It doesn't make any sense to engineer a system that would add parasitic HP drain because you have a low electrical load causing the stator to back torque electromagnetically against crank shaft rotation because it is storing energy and generating additional heat that could hasten stator failure. Why would Honda design an electrical system that would knowingly steal a couple of HP from their motorcycles and generate excess heat in a part that fails because it gets too hot?

The bikes make the energy they need and a small additional percentage... these bikes aren't Gold Wings with the expectation of large amounts of electrical accessories to be added at some future time that the engineers designed in large excess electrical capacity. Has anyone added up the baseline electrical demands of the bike? Just the lights on a 5th gen use up more than half the output (~250 watts/470 watts available).

I don't believe an experiment removing load will reveal the functional design of this system. Removing parallel electrical paths for power consumption will most likely drive the resistance of the remaining closed system up and reduce the current flowing from the stator at a given rpm and be a self fulfilling situation. This doesn't mean the stator isn't operating at 100% output under normal operation it means you've altered the system and forced it into an unnatural condition where it can't flow the energy as designed and must behave as you predict by storing electrical potential in a magnetic field around the stator coils and creating electromagnetic back torque resisting crank rotation and heat. Even adding loads won't be definitive unless you can ensure the additional circuits maintain the overall resistance of the system as measured at the R/R output as you measure stator leg outputs; otherwise, if you add an additional parallel electrical path for the additional load and the overall resistance of the system decreases wouldn't you expect the current to increase... or vice versa?

The more I think about this the more I wonder if people who switch to all LEDs are doing a disservice to the bikes electrical system by reducing power consumption. Regardless which theory is true in this debate reducing the power demands on the electrical system will either burden the shunt type R/R or cause excessive back torque losing HP to heat in the stator.

[Knight]

It doesn't make any sense to engineer a system that would add parasitic HP drain because you have a low electrical load causing the stator to back torque electromagnetically against crank shaft rotation because it is storing energy and generating additional heat that could hasten stator failure. Why would Honda design an electrical system that would knowingly steal a couple of HP from their motorcycles and generate excess heat in a part that fails because it gets too hot?

I don't believe an experiment removing load will reveal the functional design of this system. Removing parallel electrical paths for power consumption will most likely drive the resistance of the remaining closed system up and reduce the current flowing from the stator at a given rpm and be a self fulfilling situation. This doesn't mean the stator isn't operating at 100% output under normal operation it means you've altered the system and forced it into an unnatural condition where it can't flow the energy as designed and must behave as you predict by storing electrical potential in a magnetic field around the stator coils and creating electromagnetic back torque resisting crank rotation and heat. Even adding loads won't be definitive unless you can ensure the additional circuits maintain the overall resistance of the system as measured at the R/R output as you measure stator leg outputs; otherwise, if you add an additional parallel electrical path for the additional load and the overall resistance of the system decreases wouldn't you expect the current to increase... or vice versa?

The more I think about this the more I wonder if people who switch to all LEDs are doing a disservice to the bikes electrical system by reducing power consumption. Regardless which theory is true in this debate reducing the power demands on the electrical system will either burden the shunt type R/R or cause excessive back torque losing HP to heat in the stator.

You very likely may be right. However devil's advocate, to answer "why would Honda load the stator up" I have been theorizing about it:

1) The back torque of a loaded stator would act as a dampener. A free "flywheel" or "countershaft", actually minimizing certain engine vibrations. What if brilliant Honda is using it to dampen vibration?

2) The ability to respond quickly to a brownout condition. Yes, actually the battery does this, so there is no explicit need for a second storage device.

3) The stator is in an oil bath and can easily take the extra heat. The R/R cannot. So they share the responsibility of surplus energy.

Yes, I suspect the use of LED's contributes to a lot of complaints that "The R/R is of very poor quality."

I also agree that the test we proposed of completely unloading the electrical creates the situation we are looking for. So yes or no: Measure stator current at minimum normal load (lights) then remeasure stator current at a reasonable high load with bright lights and some hand warmers. If stator current increases, it is storing energy. If it is fixed, the rectifier is dissipating all excess energy. What do you think of this?

if you add an additional parallel electrical path for the additional load and the overall resistance of the system decreases wouldn't you expect the current to increase... or vice versa?

Is the induced current fixed? I think it is only a function of the alternator physics. So you are talking current flow, which is separate.

I do believe that the experiment chosen is more important than the result. Everyday there are medical experiments published that, as Denis Prager says, are either "obvious" or "wrong." I do not want to do the experiment that is "obvious" or "wrong." I would rather concede that my theorizing is totally bogus.

[Rectaltronics]

Another fun way to measure the effects of all this would be to measure the temperature of the R/R.

[spud786]

Another fun way to measure the effects of all this would be to measure the temperature of the R/R.

i can ride 200 miles, to the naked hand, stock RR is luke warm , nothing there to measure. Although Ive been through a couple stators, still waiting for failure of the second failure and install the 3rd, Stock RR has been fine.

Stator life for me has been a consistant post 55,000 mile with oem stators , in addition all original wiring.

any thing that reduces power consumption (hid's ect), expect more electrical issues, it actually helps to run an accessory , to bleed off excess

[Switchblade]

didnt the factory sixth gen rr's have blue sensing wire on them?

The early 6th gen's did. It was a white and black wire.

Remember the 6th gens burn up in the same area . The area that is blocked by the VTEC oil tube. It(the tube) blocks that area from dissipating heat.

[Knight]

Another fun way to measure the effects of all this would be to measure the temperature of the R/R.

Not just fun, but, if I said I did not want to disconnect anything while running, this is a nonintrusive way to try to identify power dissipated in the R/R.

i can ride 200 miles, to the naked hand, stock RR is luke warm , nothing there to measure. ally helps to run an accessory , to bleed off excess

Everything is there it measure. But what you just pointed out is that air circulation has an effect. The measurement would have to be the steady state, after a "long term" while the bike is stationary. Yes, not an ideal way to get information, especially since the temp would only feed more calculations..

[spud786]

Another fun way to measure the effects of all this would be to measure the temperature of the R/R.

Not just fun, but, if I said I did not want to disconnect anything while running, this is a nonintrusive way to try to identify power dissipated in the R/R.

i can ride 200 miles, to the naked hand, stock RR is luke warm , nothing there to measure. ally helps to run an accessory , to bleed off excess

Everything is there it measure. But what you just pointed out is that air circulation has an effect. The measurement would have to be the steady state, after a "long term" while the bike is stationary. Yes, not an ideal way to get information, especially since the temp would only feed more calculations..

Im just speaking over the last 110,000+ miles , no issue with oem part longevity

[CandyRedRC46]

Would ya look at that.

http://www.vstrom.info/Smf/index.php?topic=20426.0