Member Contributer Africord Posted October 22, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 22, 2015 After my road adventures last year and working with an newb Honda dealer in Missouri to get a new RR put in. My stator gave up the ghost a few weeks ago, and this time, the bike was in the garage when the battery ran out of juice. So having too many other things on my plate, I took it to the dealer and was informed that the stator was toast and that Honda had revised the parts. Furthermore, I have the Honda accessory heated grips and according to their measurements, I have no spare capacity with the grips on for any other accessory. So I probably cooked it by charging my phone with the grips on. My phone is an HTC ONE (M8) and pulls over an amp when charging. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 The stator on a factory 6th gen is always at 100% loading all the time, regardless of accessory demand on a shunt RR based charging system. Only when a charging system is equipped with a series rr, does the stator load vary with accessory loading. Research: Shunt Regulator Rectifier Mosfet Regulator Rectifier Series Regulator Rectifier And try again later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 The stator on a factory 6th gen is always at 100% loading all the time, regardless of accessory demand on a shunt RR based charging system. Only when a charging system is equipped with a series rr, does the stator load vary with accessory loading. Research: Shunt Regulator Rectifier Mosfet Regulator Rectifier Series Regulator Rectifier And try again later. Here is the research: CandyRed, in your effort to post a technical clarification that does not even help Africord out, you are still incorrect. With all due respect, you do not understand what a "load" is. The normal operation of shorting current back into the stator produces a situation of an unloaded stator. This is a different situation from applying a load such as an accessory. An electrically loaded stator takes torque to drive, aka if it is supplying electricty then it also drains engine power. You can measure the power drain with a dyno. However, disconnect the stator from the electrical system. It takes just about the same power to spin the stator disconnected as it does to spin the connected and unloaded stator (if the engine is running some power is being used always). However, if the stator were at 100% load, 100% of the time, you would actually see a difference in the power required to spin it connected versus disconnected. You cannot get 400 watts for free from the engine. The maximum load for this bike may be 400 watts (I think). Contrary to your claim the stator is absolutely, positively not supplying 400 watts at all times. Africord, yes, drawing the stator's maximum rated power from accessories will heat the stator dramatically, melt the insulation, burn the wiring, and reduce its power output. (This is a far different scenario from the normal running of a stator with no accessories loading it and the regulator returning current back to the stator, which CR incorrectly interprets as "loaded.") Africord is correct both technically and from a practical perspective on why his stator is fried. Africord FYI: I just read an article in one of the major magazines where a reader added up the wattage and then questioned the editor's bike setup because it didn't make sense: His accessories would out-draw the electrical system. The editor wrote back that he proactively manages the accessories. For example he does not use the hand warmers when the bright lights are on. So if you are a detailed oriented person, and always paying attention, you can manage various accessories that together exceed the bike's ratings. Not me for sure, as I am far too absent-minded! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 FFS that whas painful to read. Do more research. You are way off base. Assuming a conservative 50% stator efficiency rating, the 497 watt output of the VFR stator at 5000 RPMs, would require about 1000 watts of mechanical input. 1000 watts is 1.34 HP. 1.34 HP on a 108 HP bike is nothing "dramatic" lol. And again, please do some research on the difference between shunt and series RR's, before spewing out more misinformation. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 FFS that whas painful to read. Do more research. You are way off base. Assuming a conservative 50% stator efficiency rating, the 497 watt output of the VFR stator at 5000 RPMs, would require about 1000 watts of mechanical input. 1000 watts is 1.34 HP. 1.34 HP on a 108 HP bike is nothing "dramatic" lol. And again, please do some research on the difference between shunt and series RR's, before spewing out more misinformation. Thanks. I corrected that one word, great. Of course despite my quantification, the experiment was true and valid, and proved your obnoxiously condescending post to be completely wrong anyway. You seemed to indicate that the VFR has a shunt regulator and the stator is under 100% load all the time. Have I misinterpreted any of this? If no, see myth #1 here which you are propagating: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted October 22, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 22, 2015 Africord... the VFR electrical system is a weak point and can fail due to no fault of your own. Checking and PM'ing the stator output three wire plastic connector is your first option followed by upgrading the wiring with a VFRness is your best defense against failure. CRRC is right, the shunt R/R that the VFRs come with from the factory "shunts" the excess electricity from the stator+R/R through an internal resistor in the R/R to ground and the excess electrical energy is transformed as heat. Whatever is not used by the bikes electrical system goes to ground through the resistor. Loading the system actually reduces the operating temperature of the R/R. The current is not shorted back to the stator as "normal operation" that Knight stated; this is an incorrect description of how our charging system works. The normal operation of our stator is 100% output all the time and whatever electricity isn't used gets wasted as heat.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted October 22, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 22, 2015 A lot of misconception in this thread. Just to clarify, a shunt R/R loads the stator 100% ALL the time. It is basic physics, a magnet moving in relation to a wire will induce a current. The only way to stop the current is to OPEN the circuit. A shunt regulator, does not do this. In fact, running more accessories is actually better for a shunt type regulator in that the regulator no longer has to dissipate all of the excess power as heat. The only way to reduce load a stator is to vary the magnetic field (thus making an alternator) or to use a switching/series style regulator that opens the coil circuits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 FFS that whas painful to read. Do more research. You are way off base. Assuming a conservative 50% stator efficiency rating, the 497 watt output of the VFR stator at 5000 RPMs, would require about 1000 watts of mechanical input. 1000 watts is 1.34 HP. 1.34 HP on a 108 HP bike is nothing "dramatic" lol. And again, please do some research on the difference between shunt and series RR's, before spewing out more misinformation. Thanks. I corrected that one word, great. Of course despite my quantification, the experiment was true and valid, and proved your obnoxiously condescending post to be completely wrong anyway. You seemed to indicate that the VFR has a shunt regulator and the stator is under 100% load all the time. Have I misinterpreted any of this? If no, see myth #1 here which you are propagating: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators Sorry about your feelings knight. Anyways moving on. Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk A lot of misconception in this thread. Just to clarify, a shunt R/R loads the stator 100% ALL the time. It is basic physics, a magnet moving in relation to a wire will induce a current. The only way to stop the current is to OPEN the circuit. A shunt regulator, does not do this. In fact, running more accessories is actually better for a shunt type regulator in that the regulator no longer has to dissipate all of the excess power as heat. The only way to reduce load a stator is to vary the magnetic field (thus making an alternator) or to use a switching/series style regulator that opens the coil circuits. I have tried the compufire series RR and also the new Shindengen sh775 RR. It was really cool to watch the idle speed drop down as you apply more electrical load on the charging system. Flipping on the high beams would show an immediate drop of 100 RPMs. The same for applying turns signals/brake lights and radiator fan etc. As you already know, this doesn't happen with the factory RR or upgraded MOSFET rr's. Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted October 22, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 22, 2015 And I forgot, the dealer is correct in that the stator design has been revised. I believe the current 31120-MCW-D03 would be the 3rd revision. The stator in the 2015 VFR 800 carries a new product code -MJM- and may be a 4th revision. As far as what has been changed between all of these revisions, there is no official "change log" and the revisions may actually be cheaper/worse than the original part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted October 22, 2015 Share Posted October 22, 2015 To the OP, sorry if I came off condescending. I just wanted to get you up to speed on what's really going on in your charging system.As rush stated, don't just assume that the stator is fried, test it. Also, Check for burned connections on the main fuse and stator to RR connection.If you really want to save your stator, get a series RR, but I wasn't to impressed with the compufire RR which allowed over charging above 10,000 RPMs and eventually failed after 20,000 miles, nor the new sh775 which ran much warmer than my current FH020AA MOSFET RR, so I'm going to hold off on the series technology for a little while until Shindengen comes out with an upgraded series RR.Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted October 22, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 22, 2015 Knight, I just read the thread you posted earlier: If no, see myth #1 here which you are propagating: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators And this seems to be the source of your misconception. The poster in that thread speaks like a 3rd year EE student that just learned about power generating circuits. In both his hydraulic and electrical examples he seems to ignore the other parts of physics that also still apply. He compares a real world system to a perfect system in which the cost of moving electrons or hydraulic fluid is zero. In reality, moving electrons is not free. As long as there is current or flow, there is "friction". Since the current is induced by magnetism, the amount is determined by the strength of the field, windings, and speed of movement. Given that the only factor that can be changed is speed (engine RPM), that is the only means of varying the current in the circuit. This resulting current can and MUST be used to do work or generate heat, it can't simply flow. The moving magnet is continually inputting energy into the system and it must go somewhere. His "hydraulic system" is an utter disaster though... He should have used a plumbing system, that is a better analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted October 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2015 CRRC is right, the shunt R/R that the VFRs come with from the factory "shunts" the excess electricity from the stator+R/R through an internal resistor in the R/R to ground and the excess electrical energy is transformed as heat. Whatever is not used by the bikes electrical system goes to ground through the resistor. Loading the system actually reduces the operating temperature of the R/R. The current is not shorted back to the stator as "normal operation" that Knight stated; this is an incorrect description of how our charging system works. The normal operation of our stator is 100% output all the time and whatever electricity isn't used gets wasted as heat.. Ditto - what he said. ----In dumbass plain talk style (a language I work hard to master), the stator is cranking 100% of the time at full output, and any of the juice that is needed to charge the battery and run any other electric load is sucked off the R/R, with the leftover dumped to ground and producing heat. (Apologies to some of you who hate the term "juice") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted October 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2015 And I forgot, the dealer is correct in that the stator design has been revised. I believe the current 31120-MCW-D03 would be the 3rd revision. The stator in the 2015 VFR 800 carries a new product code -MJM- and may be a 4th revision. As far as what has been changed between all of these revisions, there is no official "change log" and the revisions may actually be cheaper/worse than the original part. 2014 VFR's R\R's have a built in processor to regulate output . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer zoomzoom Posted October 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2015 To the OP, sorry if I came off condescending. I just wanted to get you up to speed on what's really going on in your charging system. As rush stated, don't just assume that the stator is fried, test it. Also, Check for burned connections on the main fuse and stator to RR connection. If you really want to save your stator, get a series RR, but I wasn't to impressed with the compufire RR which allowed over charging above 10,000 RPMs and eventually failed after 20,000 miles, nor the new sh775 which ran much warmer than my current FH020AA MOSFET RR, so I'm going to hold off on the series technology for a little while until Shindengen comes out with an upgraded series RR. Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk Just out of curiosity CRRC, did your CompuFire r/r give you any warning signs of its impending failure. I am currently running a CompuFire r/r on my 2000 VFR and it has been absolutely rock solid as far as charging goes. Voltmeter rarely moves from 14.43 V anywhere above 2000 rpm, but I rarely rev past the 10,000rpm mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 The compufire RR would have been the best RR in the world, if the VFR had a 9000 rpm redline. It was as you said, rock solid. It made zero heat and had a lot of output to spare. But any time I revved over 10,000, like a switch it would go to 17 volts. Besides that, lol, it was great. Then one day I took a trip from Orlando to st. Augustine. It made it there fine, and crapped out with out warning, 5 miles in to the way back. That was after two years and 20,000 miles.Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer pres589 Posted October 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2015 Switchblade: Is the 2014+ R/R interchangeable with the 6th gen R/R? Is it really "processor controlled" or is it just more intelligently designed? I don't pay enough attention to this forum to know if this was really investigated or not. I definitely feel like the stators in 6th gen VFR's lead a harder life than they should and this might be a good way to improve on the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rectaltronics Posted October 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2015 Switchblade: Is the 2014+ R/R interchangeable with the 6th gen R/R? Is it really "processor controlled" or is it just more intelligently designed? I don't pay enough attention to this forum to know if this was really investigated or not. I definitely feel like the stators in 6th gen VFR's lead a harder life than they should and this might be a good way to improve on the situation. The 8th Gen electrics are completely different. Upgrading an older VFR would be far from trivial, if even feasible at all. What would be necessary is for an aftermarket supplier to come up with a nifty kit that uses an 8th gen stator (if it's mechanically compatible) or equivalent, somehow adds the necessary phase sensor into an existing stator cover (provide sensor, wiring, drilling/mounting templates, etc.), and supplies a new R/R that would incorporate basic computerized stator management independent of the bike's computer, etc. and then interface that to the bike's existing electrics. I totally understand the enthusiasm over the idea of putting the 8th gen's power generation equipment onto pretty much any older VFR, seeing as how some of these bikes would give the Lucas legacy a run for its money. But I don't see it happening anytime soon. It's just far, very far, from plug 'n play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Knight, I just read the thread you posted earlier: If no, see myth #1 here which you are propagating: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators This resulting current can and MUST be used to do work or generate heat, it can't simply flow. The moving magnet is continually inputting energy into the system and it must go somewhere. The induced current must do work as you say, and it can also not flow. It can be stored in the large inductor in the system, the stator. Which means that the stator is not free-flowing during shunt as I unfortunately repeated but instead it is doing the opposite, brake torquing the engine. If I connect an inductive power meter between the stator and regulator, and throttle lock at X RPM (doesn't matter), 1) read the power meter 2) load down the electrical system 3) read the power meter If a) the power remains the same at all times, particularly with a high draw, the common assumption is correct, the stator is supplying full power at all times and the regulator is dissipating all surplus power. or b) the measured power varies with the bike load, then the common assumption is wrong, and the regulator does not dissipate 100% stator power minus the draw from the system, but instead it dissipates some smaller, possibly fixed amount of power. Request for comment from a Mad Scientist? Is there any flaw with my experiment? It may have to be repeated at a relatively low then high rpm. But as the stator develops its maximum induced current quickly, I suspect not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted October 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2015 Switchblade: Is the 2014+ R/R interchangeable with the 6th gen R/R? Is it really "processor controlled" or is it just more intelligently designed? I don't pay enough attention to this forum to know if this was really investigated or not. I definitely feel like the stators in 6th gen VFR's lead a harder life than they should and this might be a good way to improve on the situation. I'm sure it is. Maybe different connectors is all. We need a current member who has one to take photo's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 didnt the factory sixth gen rr's have blue sensing wire on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeakingLewis Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 This thread just became relevant to me because I believe I just "fried" another stator after replacing the original 5 months ago. I have a electrosport that is showing inconsistent voltage readings between terminals and the battery is not charging. Does anyone have a preferred stator that they recommend? I'm going to buy a Rick's if I don't hear of anything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CandyRedRC46 Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 Electrosport is probably the worst stator/RR that you can buy for the VFR. I tried them out 3 years ago, after my ricks stator/compufire rr combo failed and before i went oem stator/ shindengen FH020aa rr. The electrosport rr/stator charged at about 18 volts at idle on first test and was immediately returned for a full refund. I have been on the same oem stator/ shindengen FH020aa rr ever since. I am at 3 years and 30,000 miles now on that combo, so thats what I am going to recomend, as that has gotten me further than anything thing else including the original charging system that failed at 25,000 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MadScientist Posted October 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2015 Knight, I just read the thread you posted earlier: If no, see myth #1 here which you are propagating: http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?240785-Facts-about-shunt-based-regulators This resulting current can and MUST be used to do work or generate heat, it can't simply flow. The moving magnet is continually inputting energy into the system and it must go somewhere. The induced current must do work as you say, and it can also not flow. It can be stored in the large inductor in the system, the stator. Which means that the stator is not free-flowing during shunt as I unfortunately repeated but instead it is doing the opposite, brake torquing the engine. If I connect an inductive power meter between the stator and regulator, and throttle lock at X RPM (doesn't matter), 1) read the power meter 2) load down the electrical system 3) read the power meter If a) the power remains the same at all times, particularly with a high draw, the common assumption is correct, the stator is supplying full power at all times and the regulator is dissipating all surplus power. or b) the measured power varies with the bike load, then the common assumption is wrong, and the regulator does not dissipate 100% stator power minus the draw from the system, but instead it dissipates some smaller, possibly fixed amount of power. Request for comment from a Mad Scientist? Is there any flaw with my experiment? It may have to be repeated at a relatively low then high rpm. But as the stator develops its maximum induced current quickly, I suspect not. Alright, science! I can play "flat earth", you can be "round earth". I've no problems being wrong, especially in this case. It's not like I make series R/Rs or anything. Your experiment sounds ok, but there are a few issues I can think of. 1. Can we load it and unload it enough that we will see a difference. Ideally unloaded, we would disconnect the entire bike load (i.e. run on battery) from the output of the R/R. However, I would have to look at the R/R schematic to know if doing this will result in damage to the bike. I think ground needs to stay connected (unless grounding the R/R chassis is enough) but maybe the +12v lead can be disconnected. Barring this, maybe we remove one high current circuit - like pulling the headlight fuse. Sorry, gotta run, more later. Have meetings all afternoon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer roadrunner Posted October 23, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2015 This thread just became relevant to me because I believe I just "fried" another stator after replacing the original 5 months ago. I have a electrosport that is showing inconsistent voltage readings between terminals and the battery is not charging. Does anyone have a preferred stator that they recommend? I'm going to buy a Rick's if I don't hear of anything better. Yep I bought an electrosport stator and didn't get 10k miles out of it. They are junk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted October 23, 2015 Share Posted October 23, 2015 I've been through MOSFET R/Rs and other brand stators as well and recently back to OEM R/R and locally rewound stator and can honestly say the OEM combo lasted the longest. The MOSFET (Rick's) R/R ran really cool, never got hot, yet I think this may have been to the expense of the stator's lifespan. Current set up seems stable, time will tell!! To the OP and recent poster whose stator failed: do the BYC Kentucky Fried Connector fix (analogous to Kanuk's "Eurethra" fix)... Back in a mo w the link... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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