thefleshrocket Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 I've put a few hundred miles on a new-to-me '99 VFR. It would shudder when engaging the clutch from a dead stop and, when upshifting at or close to WOT, it wouldn't re-engage as quickly as it should have. It would also occasionally "slip then grip" while in second gear under WOT, usually in the 8-10K range. I replaced the clutch friction plates and the springs with EBC parts and all of the issues are gone--except for the slip then grip. What basically happens is that the engine RPM will jump up a thousand RPM or so for a split second and then settle back down to where it should be. It will only do it once while accelerating up through the gears, and so far I think it has only done it in second gear. WHen changing the friction plates, I noticed that several of the steel plates were discolored or even burned looking. I've ordered a set of steels and am pretty sure that'll solve the problem. I thought it might be an issue with the trans slipping out of gear, but if that was the case, it shouldn't re-engage--instead it should false-neutral. And if it was slipping out of gear and back in, I'd think that it would do so with a bang--when the RPM drop back to where it should be, it does so firmly but not jarringly. So, while I'm waiting for the steels to arrive, do you guys think they'll fix the problem or should I plan on dropping the motor to replace the transmission dogs this winter? LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoOp Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Sounds clutch related to me, transmissions usually bang back in, not slip like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gll429 Posted October 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2011 did you SOAK the plates in oil before you installed them??? if not.. do so. it makes a HUGE difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted October 13, 2011 Author Share Posted October 13, 2011 Yup, I did soak the plates for about an hour before installing. Before changing the clutch, I changed the oil (with Amsoil 10W40) too, just in case the PO had used the "wrong" oil. Finger crossed that it's the steels--I don't think I want to spend a day or two changing out trans parts! The trans itself seems to shift smoothly with no false neutrals or slipping out of gear, so I'm reasonably confident it's in good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer gmtech94 Posted October 13, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted October 13, 2011 Also check the clutch cylinder as it may have some crud built up on it not allowing the rod to fully disengage . It is a common problem with a bike this age . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 try changing and bleeding the clutch master and slave cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 I've replaced the steels. After installing them, the slip/grip still remains. The symptoms: --The engine RPM climb about 1000 or so, then almost instantly drop down to where they should be. --It happens at different RPM but usually in the 6,000-11,000 range. --It only seems to happen in 2nd gear. I've tried to duplicate in 3rd but haven't been able to do so, and none of the other gears have exhibited the symptom either despite heavy acceleration. --It only happens once during an acceleration run. IE if it happens at 7000RPM, it won't happen a second time during the run. --It happens more often when the engine oil is cooler--after riding for about 15 minutes today (55F ambient), it did it under a 3/4 throttle burst in 2nd gear. But yesterday after a 45-minute ride, it would only happen once out of 3-4 tries at WOT. (I say engine oil because yesterday and today, engine coolant was around 175F, but I'd guess that the oil hadn't warmed to coolant temp after this morning's 15-minute ride but it probably had after 45 minutes of riding yesterday.) --When the slip/grip happens, it feels like the clutch is being fanned. The RPM don't drop with a "bang". Since it happens only in 2nd gear, I'm inclined to think that it's a problem with the transmission. On the other hand, I'm not exactly sure what could have failed in the trans to cause this. If it was worn shift dogs, I'd think that the trans would fall out of gear during the slip/grip or give me false neutrals during the 1st-2nd upshift. If it was a broken tooth, I'd think that the slip/grip would happen multiple times during 2nd gear runs. And I'd think that the grip part of the slip/grip would happen with a bang. However, if it's not the clutch and it's not the 2nd gear teeth or shift dogs, what else could it be? Nothing I can think of. So maybe it is something in the trans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted October 22, 2011 Author Share Posted October 22, 2011 Also check the clutch cylinder as it may have some crud built up on it not allowing the rod to fully disengage . It is a common problem with a bike this age . I haven't done this yet and I'll be sure to do so. But.. how could the clutch slave cylinder cause my symptoms to occur? If the clutch wasn't engaging fully, wouldn't the problem be present in more than just second gear? And, wouldn't the symptoms be more like a worn clutch (engine RPM climbing faster than it should until I let off the throttle, rather than a quick "slip"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted October 23, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted October 23, 2011 Is this slipping occurring immediately after an upshift, or seconds afterward? Like, if you change up and hover around 5,000rpm for a while then smack the throttle open, does it also happen then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted October 23, 2011 Share Posted October 23, 2011 Also check the clutch cylinder as it may have some crud built up on it not allowing the rod to fully disengage . It is a common problem with a bike this age . I haven't done this yet and I'll be sure to do so. But.. how could the clutch slave cylinder cause my symptoms to occur? If the clutch wasn't engaging fully, wouldn't the problem be present in more than just second gear? And, wouldn't the symptoms be more like a worn clutch (engine RPM climbing faster than it should until I let off the throttle, rather than a quick "slip"? Generally when a clutch has mild slip issues in taller gears which stress the clutch more Espically up Big Hills, its usually sharp Jolts, that come and go. But 2nd gear is normally a Balistic Launch gear, so it can see as much stress . The slave fluid, has to be done fairly often atleast the resoviors, to avoid flat out blockage in the orifices . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 kaldek, this happens whether I've just shifted, or if I've been in 2nd for a while. For example, I was in second and ran from 5K to redline and back down to 5K four times without shifting. It did it on the third run. I've flushed and filled the clutch fluid, cleaned the slave cylinder piston, the clutch rod, and the pin-sized hole in the master cylinder. Of course, I haven't taken the bike for a test ride since, so I don't know if it's fixed yet. Fingers crossed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum CEO HispanicSlammer Posted October 27, 2011 Forum CEO Share Posted October 27, 2011 You might have glazed the steel plates too, a light sanding to knock that down, if they are warped though thats is different, you can check that with a plate of glass and a gap tool, see if you can get the tool between the glass and the clutch plate. I cant remember the exact dimension for the gap its in the manual and you can download it in the files section here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglasthecook Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Hopefully you get your issue sorted!!! I have a similar problem as you do, but mine slips out of second gear when above 9k RPM. Very frustrating, I have also changed pretty much everything in the clutch system with the exception of the slave cylinder. New clutch line, plates, springs, amster cylinder, and it still does it. I'm pretty sure it's the transmission. Hopefully you won't have to change tranny parts, as it looks like the engine HAS to be opened up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer hondalover Posted October 27, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted October 27, 2011 I'm betting it's the transmission gear(s) and maybe the shift fork also. I'd replace all the 2nd gears parts if your that far in there just for piece of mind. I wish I had kept the 2nd gear parts that I changed out of a Kawasaki Concours, or at least taken pictures of them. That bike had the exact same symptoms as your VFR has. Sounds like a winter project to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted October 29, 2011 Author Share Posted October 29, 2011 Well fuck. I was going to test out second gear today (after flushing the clutch hydraulics, cleaning the clutch slave piston and its bore, and cleaning the clutch rod) and fucking low-sided the bike. There were several cars in front of me on the backroad where I was planning to do a few second-gear runs, so I began slowing to add some space between myself and the traffic. I then saw a turn-off and decided to stop there. While braking, completely upright, I locked the front tire and went down on the right side. Total fucking noob move, and I know better. So, the right-side lower, the right-side upper, and the clutch cover have scuffs on them. The stupid frame sliders didn't stick out far enough to save ANYTHING, and of course they are the completely retarded ones that require drilling a hole through the fairing. Which means that if I replace the right-side fairing, I need to replace the slider AND drill a hole in the new fairing, or replace both the left and right fairings so I can leave the moronic sliders off completely. (Seriously, whoever thought that sliders which require cutting holes in otherwise good fairings was a total idiot.) What really pisses me off is that I have a set of Pilot Power 2CTs ready to install. I run those tires on ALL of my other bikes and they at least give me some warning when they are at the edge of traction. Unlike the Dunlop Qualifiers on the bike now which went from traction to nothing, instantly. Not that I blame the tires--this was my mistake no matter what. I just think that if I'd mounted the 2CTs instead of planning to leave the Qualifiers on for another thousand miles or so until they were used up, I wouldn't have crashed. What really REALLY pisses me off is that after I picked the bike up and made a couple of second gear runs, the bike fucking did the slip/grip again. So, not only will I be replacing aesthetic parts this winter, I'll be dropping the motor to replace trans parts. If I didn't really like this bike, it would be up for sale right now. I've done the trans R&R several times on an '01 GSX-R600 and got so good that I could drop the motor, have the trans R&Red, and have the bike back together in about 4 hours. (Or maybe it was 6. Either way, quite a bit less than one day.) I hope the VFR is that "easy", although I have a sneaking suspicion it's gonna be a huge pain in the ass. Anyway, please pardon my French. I'm pretty aggravated right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted October 29, 2011 Author Share Posted October 29, 2011 Hopefully you get your issue sorted!!! I have a similar problem as you do, but mine slips out of second gear when above 9k RPM. Very frustrating, I have also changed pretty much everything in the clutch system with the exception of the slave cylinder. New clutch line, plates, springs, amster cylinder, and it still does it. I'm pretty sure it's the transmission. Hopefully you won't have to change tranny parts, as it looks like the engine HAS to be opened up... The bad news is that this is due to worn second gear engagement dogs. The aforementioned '01 GSX-R600 ended up having worn dogs as well as worn shift forks. It would fall out of 4th gear or not fully engage it on upshifts. First I tried a Factory Pro shift star. No dice. Then I tried a used Ebay transmission. The falling out problem disappeared, but I would still sometimes get a false neutral between 3rd and 4th. Turns out that the shift forks that came with the used trans were also bent, even though the gears and dogs were fine. New-from-Suzuki shift forks finally made it right. Sounds like you and I both have winter projects ahead of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted October 30, 2011 Author Share Posted October 30, 2011 So I did some thinking and figured I'd test kaldek's suggestion again. Sure enough, the bike will only do the slip/grip on the first or second pull after shifting gears. For example, if it does it on my first pull in second, and I do 9 more pulls (which I did) in second, running from 5000rpm-redline-5000rpm without shifting, it won't do it again. I bought some very fine steel wool and I'm going to clean the clutch rod and clutch slave piston and its bore (advised by someone on the Honda CB-1 mailing list) a second time. (The first time, just rubbed them up against a terry cloth and that probably wasn't abrasive enough.) I also took some video of the problem but I won't bother posting unless a second thorough cleaning of those parts doesn't fix the problem. Lastly, I did a half dozen circle burnouts trying to kill the friggin Qualifier rear. The damn thing looks like it's got a few dozen more burnouts left in it. I WILL MAKE YOU PAY!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFR4Lee Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Seems like a clutch problem to me. The one bike I had trans problems with, it would pop out of second gear, and make expensive noises when I tried to put it in second. A nasty mechanical wailing and gnashing of teeth. Good luck with it. don't let the tire turn the tables on you and put you on the ground while you extract your pound of rubber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
douglasthecook Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hopefully you get your issue sorted!!! I have a similar problem as you do, but mine slips out of second gear when above 9k RPM. Very frustrating, I have also changed pretty much everything in the clutch system with the exception of the slave cylinder. New clutch line, plates, springs, amster cylinder, and it still does it. I'm pretty sure it's the transmission. Hopefully you won't have to change tranny parts, as it looks like the engine HAS to be opened up... The bad news is that this is due to worn second gear engagement dogs. The aforementioned '01 GSX-R600 ended up having worn dogs as well as worn shift forks. It would fall out of 4th gear or not fully engage it on upshifts. First I tried a Factory Pro shift star. No dice. Then I tried a used Ebay transmission. The falling out problem disappeared, but I would still sometimes get a false neutral between 3rd and 4th. Turns out that the shift forks that came with the used trans were also bent, even though the gears and dogs were fine. New-from-Suzuki shift forks finally made it right. Sounds like you and I both have winter projects ahead of us. I'm so sorry to hear of your misfortune. I'm going to wait a little longer to source my parts, as I hope to have my engine bored out this winter, and when that happens, I'll drop off the transmission parts. I could do it myself, but I figure why bother, since the motor has to come apart for the rebuild anyway. The VFR won't be as easy to work on as your GSXR, but it won't be exponentially harder either, just more of a pain-in-the -ass sort of thing with the way the engine is configured to go into the frame. Good luck, and let us know how it comes out!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted April 21, 2012 Author Share Posted April 21, 2012 Bump to my old-ass thread. I finally went over the clutch slave cylinder with the fine steel wool--enough to make it look a fair bit cleaner but not perfect. It seems to have helped the clutch action--the clutch lever seems to move much more smoothly in its travel, whereas before, it felt like it would move with varying degrees of ease throughout its travel. Alas, no change--the slip-then-grip still periodically rears its ugly head in 2nd gear. I ordered a new clutch slave cylinder spring (and seal and gasket) just in case that spring has gotten weak, although I can't really think of how that would affect the clutch--the spring appears to push the slave cylinder piston out, which the fluid from the master should have no problem doing itself. I half though about buying a completely new clutch slave cylinder kit, but the damn thing is more than $200. Anyway, anyone else have any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Sorry to hear of your trials- you might check for indentations on the clutch basket where the steel plates might hammer in due to hard shifts-------- this wouldn't explain why it only occurs on the 1-2 shift though( possibly because of the high torque?) GL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted April 21, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted April 21, 2012 Condolences on your low-side. Sounds like it could not have come at a worse time. The shifting problems sound VERY frustrating. All I can offer is "Good Luck". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spud786 Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Yup, I did soak the plates for about an hour before installing. Before changing the clutch, I changed the oil (with Amsoil 10W40) too, just in case the PO had used the "wrong" oil. Finger crossed that it's the steels--I don't think I want to spend a day or two changing out trans parts! The trans itself seems to shift smoothly with no false neutrals or slipping out of gear, so I'm reasonably confident it's in good shape. The most load is on the clutch in 6th gear, . Do you have a really Big vertical incline like a mile long , where you can burn through the gears all the way up. When you hit top gear, if the clutch has issue it will show up by then. Maybe you have a blockage issue in the hydraulic, I cant see where a clutch issue would only happen in second gear though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 I pulled off the clutch cover and clutch itself and saw this: Here's a bigger view: I'm guessing that the dent in the clutch basket nut shouldn't be there. The dent corresponds with a machined indent in the metal piece inside the nut, so it appears that the dent was done on purpose. I also had a look at the piece that the end of the clutch rod connects to. It has a lot of little scuff marks on it. It seems to move smoothly in the bore when not side loaded but as soon as I put a little bit of side pressure on it, I can feel the ridges. I am going to go over the clutch rod end piece to see if I can smooth out the ridges, but I'm assuming I should replace that piece and the clutch basket nut with the dent punched in it. Everything else seems to look good. Thoughts? '99 VFR800, '08 1125R, '06 675, '91 F2, '03 DRZ400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thefleshrocket Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 I found this picture: It appears that the nut in this bike's clutch also has a notch in it. http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/68154-clutch-and-grab/page__hl__%2Bclutch+%2Bbasket+%2Bremoval So maybe that's normal. But I'm guessing that the ridges in the clutch rod end piece aren't. Rather than mess with it, I'm gonna have the dealer order me one. Sucks I'll be unable to ride the bike for a week or so but I don't really feel like putting it completely back together and then disassembling it again. (Just being lazy--it's not really all that hard or time consuming to do so.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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