KanadianKen Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Not 100% sure - but I'm wondering if my 02 VFR has some parasitic electrical losses happening when not running. Installed my new MOTY battery yesterday and it fired right up. Today - it was all I could do to get the sucker turning over fast enough to fire up. I let it run up to temp so the cooling fan would kick on - did that a couple times. I'm hoping that the battery was just a little "down" but I"m very suspicious about some unknown electrical leakage happening. Anyone have any ideas that I could check into? (FYI - I have a hardwired Garmin GPS cradle, power commander 3, and hard wired plug for a battery tender.) Can't think of anything that would pull on the battery while parked..............??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer TomG33 Posted March 28, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2011 Ken, Seeing you have done a good run, I imagine the battery is pretty well charged. but it wouldn't do any harm to leave the battery tender on overnight to see if that makes any difference, I doubt it, but it's worth a try. Did you wire up your GPS so that it goes off when you stop the bike? I know that mine has a power supply rated at 1.5 amps, which is really quite a big slug, So if you have this energized , then it may be the culprit. I do not imagine the battery tender connection would be the trouble nor the power commander as these go off when you shut off the bike. I wired my GPS to the wires going to the low beam, as these come on and go off with ignition. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanadianKen Posted March 28, 2011 Author Share Posted March 28, 2011 Ken, Seeing you have done a good run, I imagine the battery is pretty well charged. but it wouldn't do any harm to leave the battery tender on overnight to see if that makes any difference, I doubt it, but it's worth a try. Did you wire up your GPS so that it goes off when you stop the bike? I know that mine has a power supply rated at 1.5 amps, which is really quite a big slug, So if you have this energized , then it may be the culprit. I do not imagine the battery tender connection would be the trouble nor the power commander as these go off when you shut off the bike. I wired my GPS to the wires going to the low beam, as these come on and go off with ignition. Tom Thanks Tom, Actually my GPS is powered up ALL the time. Wasn't a problem for the last couple couple years - but I could interrupt that circuit vis a vis a relay - or a simple toggle switch to see if that changes anything. Will report back tomorrow on what I find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted March 28, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2011 Did you check it with a volt meter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted March 28, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2011 Actually my GPS is powered up ALL the time. Wasn't a problem for the last couple couple years - but I could interrupt that circuit vis a vis a relay - or a simple toggle switch to see if that changes anything. Will report back tomorrow on what I find. Sounds like the culprit to me. See, the thing with these LiFePo4 batteries is that they don't need to have as much basic capacity to crank the engine. So, what was a 12 amp/hour lead-acid might only be a 6 amp/hour LiFePo4, but still have wayyyyy more cranking amps. A 12Ah lead acid may have 100 amps of cranking power, but a 6Ah LiFePo4 could easily have 200 amps or more of cranking power. But if you pull 0.5 amps an hour, it's gonna be dead in the morning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monk Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 IIRC they call for the batt' to be fully charged on receipt, before installing. But it still seems it's the GPS. And thx Tom for the headlight tap tip... I thought there should be something other than running to the taillight.(seems like a lot of wire for nothing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted March 28, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2011 Actually my GPS is powered up ALL the time. Wasn't a problem for the last couple couple years - but I could interrupt that circuit vis a vis a relay - or a simple toggle switch to see if that changes anything. Will report back tomorrow on what I find. Sounds like the culprit to me. See, the thing with these LiFePo4 batteries is that they don't need to have as much basic capacity to crank the engine. So, what was a 12 amp/hour lead-acid might only be a 6 amp/hour LiFePo4, but still have wayyyyy more cranking amps. A 12Ah lead acid may have 100 amps of cranking power, but a 6Ah LiFePo4 could easily have 200 amps or more of cranking power. But if you pull 0.5 amps an hour, it's gonna be dead in the morning. Did you check it with a volt meter before you installed? Do you have one on the bike? All 3 I got were mid 13's upon arrival, and the two bikes with volt meters all show mid 13 when I turn the key. VFR is the only bike I have with a clock, thus the only one with constant power need. Clock alone doesn't draw enough to be a problem. Certainly not overnight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum CEO HispanicSlammer Posted March 28, 2011 Forum CEO Share Posted March 28, 2011 Yea the GPS is a big draw, I too have mine on a non switched lead, easily changable on the fuze block. If your the scientific type who needs actual data proof, do a leak test by removing the ground wire from the battery and putting your multi meter in amp mode between the battery post and the battery wire, that should tell you the actual draw with the key off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer IntAceptor Posted March 28, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2011 Take the positive lead off the battery and get a meter that will show you current (amps or milli-amps), put it in series from the positive battery terminal to the lead you just removed. It will give you the results of any parasitic draw that the bike may have. You can then figure out how long the battery would hold up if there is a draw. I think cars draw about 20-40 milli-amps. The bike should be a lot less than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer racerman Posted March 28, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2011 I agree with using a meter to read the quiescent current draw. With the meter connected, you can simply start pulling fuses to find the circuit that is causing the draw. Once you know what circuit the draw is on, it's much easier to find the culprit. But, it could also simply be that the new battery was never fully charged. Put the tender on it or go for a hundred mile ride, and your problem may go away all by itself. Garry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer NorthernVFRDave Posted March 28, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2011 Ken, put the battery on a charger overnight before you dig too deep. Most places that sell batteries don't charge them before the sell them to you, you might get one start or maybe two, but if you don't then go riding to charge it fully, the next day it may or may not start. The VFR only has a 500w electrical system, take what is needs to run the bike, there is not a lot left over for charging the battery so if it was low to the point it would barely start the bike. It could take a hour or more of running to bring the battery to where it needs to be. So my bet is, the battery just needs a full charge. But it wouldn't hurt to put a relay on that GPS.. I've got a mount on my sled for the Zumo, its connected directly to the battery. Left the Zumo on overnight this winter and came out the next day and my battery was dead in the sled. Thankfully the sled has a pull start as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted March 28, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted March 28, 2011 Ken, put the battery on a charger overnight before you dig too deep. Most places that sell batteries don't charge them before the sell them to you, you might get one start or maybe two, but if you don't then go riding to charge it fully, the next day it may or may not start. He's talking about the MOTY battery he got. Shipped fully charged, should keep on the shelf for up to 2 years, not really supposed to use float chargers on them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Ken, Is it still cold their? LiFePO4 batteries don't like to be cold. If it is cool out, turn the key on for a few minutes, then try starting it. The biggest issue with LiFePO4 in motorcycles is that the cells must stay in balance...if one is a bit weaker than the rest, it charges up too high, and drops down too low. Never let a LiFePO4 battery drop below 12V total, or you risk damaging a cell. I am going to watch the cells on my custom LiFePO4 battery to see how balanced they stay, since the MOTY pack would be hard to check with the Heatshrink in place. Because I am so proud of mine (just finished it tonight): Resting Voltage: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DDO-VFR Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Take the positive lead off the battery and get a meter that will show you current (amps or milli-amps), put it in series from the positive battery terminal to the lead you just removed. It will give you the results of any parasitic draw that the bike may have. You can then figure out how long the battery would hold up if there is a draw. I think cars draw about 20-40 milli-amps. The bike should be a lot less than that. Just don't go cranking the starter with the ammeter still in place! Most consumer types are not rated higher than 10A, and would have a fuse in series to protect. Brian edit: A 'clamp-on' meter would be more practical, most should have the resolution you're looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 Wow tiny pack. I assume that there are two buss bars on the bottom. Will it be enough to replace the lead acid battery? My battery is stamped 2008 still working but some day it won't. Ken, Is it still cold their? LiFePO4 batteries don't like to be cold. If it is cool out, turn the key on for a few minutes, then try starting it. The biggest issue with LiFePO4 in motorcycles is that the cells must stay in balance...if one is a bit weaker than the rest, it charges up too high, and drops down too low. Never let a LiFePO4 battery drop below 12V total, or you risk damaging a cell. I am going to watch the cells on my custom LiFePO4 battery to see how balanced they stay, since the MOTY pack would be hard to check with the Heatshrink in place. Because I am so proud of mine (just finished it tonight): Resting Voltage: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer TomG33 Posted April 1, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted April 1, 2011 Hey Ken, I see you got plenty of good tips here. Was there any sort of resolution to the problem ? Just Curious Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Joshvfr Posted April 1, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted April 1, 2011 with a stock replacement battery and 2 gps units wired direct I have never had a problem with a low battery, I have been thinking about going to a pair of these new fancy batteries if I can figure out where to locate them. Maybe I will wait until all of these little issues get figured out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanadianKen Posted April 2, 2011 Author Share Posted April 2, 2011 Heres what I've found so far: at rest - voltage on the battery is 13.6v While cranking it over the volts drop down to around 8 v. Whilst idling - the volts are 14.2 v High beams on - at 5000 RPM (Jeremy556 test) volts are 14.18v High beams on at idle - volts are 14.1 v Temp in my garage is likely around 4-5 C. Cold - but not freezing temps. Weird thing - I crank it over - and it barely wants to turn over. Then when I re try - the thing spins up nicely and fires up. Connections are good, once running - it idles perfect - voltages are precisely where they should be. Just the initial start up seems to be an issue. I haven't had a chance to ride yet - so its only been at idle in the garage. I did put a battery tender on it for a couple nights as per MOTY instructions via emails back and forth - but the battery was at 13.5 Volts when I got it. I think it was fully charged then. I'm just not thrilled with the initial try to start a cold bike - I don't want to be dicking with this in May in North Carolina thats for sure@!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted April 2, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted April 2, 2011 I don't know, maybe it is the temp? MOTY turns over my RC51 no problem, and those are a big pair of pistons to get moving! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mello dude Posted April 2, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted April 2, 2011 Heres what I've found so far: at rest - voltage on the battery is 13.6v While cranking it over the volts drop down to around 8 v. Whilst idling - the volts are 14.2 v High beams on - at 5000 RPM (Jeremy556 test) volts are 14.18v High beams on at idle - volts are 14.1 v Temp in my garage is likely around 4-5 C. Cold - but not freezing temps. Weird thing - I crank it over - and it barely wants to turn over. Then when I re try - the thing spins up nicely and fires up. Connections are good, once running - it idles perfect - voltages are precisely where they should be. Just the initial start up seems to be an issue. I haven't had a chance to ride yet - so its only been at idle in the garage. I did put a battery tender on it for a couple nights as per MOTY instructions via emails back and forth - but the battery was at 13.5 Volts when I got it. I think it was fully charged then. I'm just not thrilled with the initial try to start a cold bike - I don't want to be dicking with this in May in North Carolina thats for sure@!!! You could bounce it off Brian at Moty Design for his input. Having one of his batterys myself, I'm curious as to what he would say.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted April 4, 2011 Share Posted April 4, 2011 Ken - Try my suggestion of turning the key on for 5 minutes before cranking it the first time...this will warm up the battery and should provide better cranking ability. Cranking also warms up the battery, but obviously wears on other parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KanadianKen Posted April 5, 2011 Author Share Posted April 5, 2011 Ken - Try my suggestion of turning the key on for 5 minutes before cranking it the first time...this will warm up the battery and should provide better cranking ability. Cranking also warms up the battery, but obviously wears on other parts. Ok - I can try what you've suggested. DO you mean that I should let the fuel pump prime, and then sit for 5 minutes - or hit the kill switch and just let the battery cook up the headlights for a few minutes? LEt me know what you think. tks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 I noticed when I started my bike tonight while I was testing my regulator hookup. The voltmeter dropped to about 9.8 volts for an instant as I hit the starter. The battery is dated 2008 so it isn't new. It is 50 deg in the garage. Are your connections tight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Maddog Hoek Posted April 5, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted April 5, 2011 Heres what I've found so far: at rest - voltage on the battery is 13.6v While cranking it over the volts drop down to around 8 v. Whilst idling - the volts are 14.2 v High beams on - at 5000 RPM (Jeremy556 test) volts are 14.18v High beams on at idle - volts are 14.1 v Temp in my garage is likely around 4-5 C. Cold - but not freezing temps. Weird thing - I crank it over - and it barely wants to turn over. Then when I re try - the thing spins up nicely and fires up. Connections are good, once running - it idles perfect - voltages are precisely where they should be. Just the initial start up seems to be an issue. I haven't had a chance to ride yet - so its only been at idle in the garage. I did put a battery tender on it for a couple nights as per MOTY instructions via emails back and forth - but the battery was at 13.5 Volts when I got it. I think it was fully charged then. I'm just not thrilled with the initial try to start a cold bike - I don't want to be dicking with this in May in North Carolina thats for sure@!!! If you line up a multimeter in series like mentioned before you should get a better indication of the power draw. I had a similar problem and found that I failed to update my VFRness correctly after my recall work was done. I got one of the early ones(before the recall was announced), Tightwad sent the correct updated wiring for it, I just did not think that I needed it. The amp draw showed itself once I stopped riding as much during the winter. If you don't have the VFRness then nevermind on that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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