Shorai Lithium Battery

[kaldek]

Doesn't riding the bike recharge the battery to some extent?

I know that the bike/cars charging system doesn't restore a battery to a fully charged state, but?

LiPo and LiFe batteries recharge very differently to lead acid - once the battery hits 4.20 volts per cell (in LiPo anyway - LiFe is a lower voltage per cell), the battery is charged. Therefore it is much easier to determine the fully charged state on a Lithium battery than on lead acid.

The important thing is to ensure the battery has a charging control circuit inside it that will cut the charge to the cells when they are full. Overcharging LiPo batteries is bad - like start a fire under your ass bad.

[kaldek]

The two things that keep me from going with a litium battery are the cost, and the operating temps. If I thought it would last 4X longer than a good AGM I might be tempted, but I know it gets much hotter down under that VFR seat than 125° in the summer, and that will likely cause the lithium battery to fail prematurely.

LiPo battery cells are generally good to 56 degres centigrade per cell, after which they degrade, but that's normally a number related to how fast you discharge the battery. The faster the discharge, the more heat generated.

So they're really saying "a hot battery means you discharged it too fast and that causes the battery chemistry to degrade". It's not the heat which is the problem, the heat is a symptom.

I have some 6-cell LiPo batteries I used in my electric RC jet and they put out something like two kilowatts of power, for about three minutes, and then they're flat. If you went full throttle the whole time they would get pretty hot, and the two cells in the middle of the pack suffer the most because they have nowhere to vent their heat. I would hope that any Lithium based motorcycle batteries use spacing between the cells using some form of material which conducts heat away from the cell.

[Monk]

Doesn't riding the bike recharge the battery to some extent?

I know that the bike/cars charging system doesn't restore a battery to a fully charged state, but?

LiPo and LiFe batteries recharge very differently to lead acid - once the battery hits 4.20 volts per cell (in LiPo anyway - LiFe is a lower voltage per cell), the battery is charged. Therefore it is much easier to determine the fully charged state on a Lithium battery than on lead acid.

The important thing is to ensure the battery has a charging control circuit inside it that will cut the charge to the cells when they are full. Overcharging LiPo batteries is bad - like start a fire under your ass bad.

Thx for the reply........ Sounds like I'll be staying away from them for a few years, just on the heat issue.

[mello dude]

Doesn't riding the bike recharge the battery to some extent?

I know that the bike/cars charging system doesn't restore a battery to a fully charged state, but?

LiPo and LiFe batteries recharge very differently to lead acid - once the battery hits 4.20 volts per cell (in LiPo anyway - LiFe is a lower voltage per cell), the battery is charged. Therefore it is much easier to determine the fully charged state on a Lithium battery than on lead acid.

The important thing is to ensure the battery has a charging control circuit inside it that will cut the charge to the cells when they are full. Overcharging LiPo batteries is bad - like start a fire under your ass bad.

Thx for the reply........ Sounds like I'll be staying away from them for a few years, just on the heat issue.

I believe above was referencing the LiPo batteries, not the LiFe

My experience so far has been that since I put foam around the battery, the battery box area seems to be the coolest area under the seat after I run the bike awhile. That area under the seat gets pretty fricken warm, so my guess is that I am insulating it from the heat as opposed the battery generating heat. As long as the bikes charging system is in reasonable condition, it will be fine.

[MBrane]

I still think I'm gonna wait to see how these batteries perform before pulling the trigger. Maybe the price will come down a bit in the meantime.

[kaldek]

Thx for the reply........ Sounds like I'll be staying away from them for a few years, just on the heat issue.

All that was only relevant to LiPo batteries - LiFe batteries (particulaly A123 cells) are a totally different kettle of fish.

In comparison to LiPo, LiFe batteries (Lithium-IRON) are much better. They can deliver way more amps, can be charged much faster, and don't overheat anything like LiPo technology. They also last a very long time.

[spud786]

I still think I'm gonna wait to see how these batteries perform before pulling the trigger. Maybe the price will come down a bit in the meantime.

I pulled this from Moty site, and this is their largest battery the $250 one

Pulse discharge @ 10 seconds = 360 Amps <LI>Continuous discharge (MAX) = 210 Amps <LI>Cycle Life (DoD spec) = 1,000 cycles <LI>Dimensions (L x W x H) = 10.5cm x 7.5cm x 7cm / 4.13" x 2.94" x 2.75" <LI>Weight = 958.21g / 2.11lbs <LI>Rating = 6.9Ah <LI>Operational Temperature Range = -22 °F to +140 °F

This for the $180 battery

<LI>Pulse discharge @ 10 seconds = 240 Amps <LI>Continuous discharge (MAX) = 140 Amps <LI>Cycle Life (DoD spec) = 1,000 cycles <LI>Dimensions (L x W x H) = 10.5cm x 5cm x 7cm / 4.13" x 1.96" x 2.75" <LI>Weight = 766.57g / 1.69lbs <LI>Rating = 4.6Ah <LI>Operational Temperature Range = -22 °F to +140 °F

YtZ 14 yuasa

230 cca

11.2 AH - Near double to both Motys

looks equal to me ?

[snake]

Thx for the reply........ Sounds like I'll be staying away from them for a few years, just on the heat issue.

All that was only relevant to LiPo batteries - LiFe batteries (particulaly A123 cells) are a totally different kettle of fish.

In comparison to LiPo, LiFe batteries (Lithium-IRON) are much better. They can deliver way more amps, can be charged much faster, and don't overheat anything like LiPo technology. They also last a very long time.

which is why in my first post. in the other battery thread i said id rather have a Shorai battery

[Roebling3]

Regarding lead/acid batteries: ALWAYS give new batteries a full charge (overnight), before installation, regardless of what the seller claims to have done. If you're adding the acid this should be obvious. Many dealers will claim they have fully charged the battery you're buying. Consider it BS, and do it yourself. Good fortune, R~

[Guest]

For the benefit of all:

Shorai has NO batteries in the US (haven't since just after the Indy Dealer Expo) & the last update I got from their sales/service weiner was that no new batteries are expected in the US until mid-April of 2011. But they are making some update in the interim...

So, early May your local parts house may have Shorais. If they pay up now & wait patiently.

[hawglet]

What are the reprucutions of these new tech batties on a reg/rect. that already has problems? In simple terms, if I understand correctly, the reg/rect. burns the extra juice off in form of heat among other duties, well if the battery requires less of a charging state the reg. has to burn that much more right? won't this shorten an already short life of the 5th gen. reg/rect.? Sorry to high jack, I just want to get an educated answer on this before ordering one of these.

[mello dude]

What are the reprucutions of these new tech batties on a reg/rect. that already has problems? In simple terms, if I understand correctly, the reg/rect. burns the extra juice off in form of heat among other duties, well if the battery requires less of a charging state the reg. has to burn that much more right? won't this shorten an already short life of the 5th gen. reg/rect.? Sorry to high jack, I just want to get an educated answer on this before ordering one of these.

I think it goes without saying that we know that the VFR charging system has its "issues". It's probably a good idea to go through your bike -- i.e. replace the stator connectors, check stator condition, move to a MOSFET or series (compufire) R/R. (Ditch the OEM)

A effed up charging system can hose any battery whether its the classic lead acid or the new tech lithum iron. That's why I'm going thru mine to make sure it's 100%. (I bought the MOTY)

[bryan217]

Motorcycle Consumer News just did a write up on Shorai. I haven't seen it myself, but heard about it on my local forum. But it sounds positive.

As for the delay, Shorai says they're redesigning the batteries a little due to feedback. http://blog.shoraipower.com/

[Tightwad]

What are the reprucutions of these new tech batties on a reg/rect. that already has problems? In simple terms, if I understand correctly, the reg/rect. burns the extra juice off in form of heat among other duties, well if the battery requires less of a charging state the reg. has to burn that much more right? won't this shorten an already short life of the 5th gen. reg/rect.? Sorry to high jack, I just want to get an educated answer on this before ordering one of these.

The actual charging required shouldn't change...the R/R bleeds off the overhead not used by the lights etc, and this amount increased once the battery is fully charged. I suppose under that auspice, using a battery tender makes your R/R work harder to bleed off the excess...interesting.

I am looking forward to more data as these batteries become more popular and widely used.

[hawglet]

What are the reprucutions of these new tech batties on a reg/rect. that already has problems? In simple terms, if I understand correctly, the reg/rect. burns the extra juice off in form of heat among other duties, well if the battery requires less of a charging state the reg. has to burn that much more right? won't this shorten an already short life of the 5th gen. reg/rect.? Sorry to high jack, I just want to get an educated answer on this before ordering one of these.

The actual charging required shouldn't change...the R/R bleeds off the overhead not used by the lights etc, and this amount increased once the battery is fully charged. I suppose under that auspice, using a battery tender makes your R/R work harder to bleed off the excess...interesting.

I am looking forward to more data as these batteries become more popular and widely used.

I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding or if I'm being misunderstood. I guess that what I'm thinking is that these batteries don't drain out like conventional lead acid, right? Now, if understood right, the bike doesn't require cranking repetitively to start as the amperages are higher and better sustained/delivered with the Lith. tech batteries. So once started the battery is charged quicker, for speculation purpose say 1/2 or maybe more realistic 3/4 of the time at a giving rev. than a conventional. So the R/R will be burning that extra juice up that would have otherwise went to the acid battery. Over the course of the season this could be the little bit extra to replacing the R/R on a semi-annual basis, not? Btw: I'm lucky enough so far to not have had to replace my R/R at 2x,xxx miles but I plan on getting one soon to have it readily available when the inevitable happens., when I get to this I'll be looking for some "NESS" to add as well.

[rektifyre]

Any risk or considerations before putting one of these Lithium batteries in a 4th gen VFR? (1997 VFR750 - i.e. carbs not FI)

I'm about to pull the trigger on the Shorai 18 Amp Hour (now back in stock at batterystuff.com - https://www.batterystuff.com/powersports-batteries/LFX18A1-BS12.html )

[kaldek]

Any risk or considerations before putting one of these Lithium batteries in a 4th gen VFR? (1997 VFR750 - i.e. carbs not FI)

No, just use it as you would a normal lead acid battery. You seriously don't need the 18 amp hour unit - why do you think you do?

Remember it's 18 amp/hour "equivalent" which means it's actually about 6amp/hours in the battery. This is not a problem because it's almost impossible to get the full 18 amp/hours out of a lead acid battery before the voltage crashes, whereas the Lithium batteries will deliver nearly all of their full 6amp/hours before the output voltage drops. Also the Lithium battery will not self-drain anywhere near as fast as the lead acid, so you can leave it for weeks without the battery going flat.

[rektifyre]

Any risk or considerations before putting one of these Lithium batteries in a 4th gen VFR? (1997 VFR750 - i.e. carbs not FI)

No, just use it as you would a normal lead acid battery. You seriously don't need the 18 amp hour unit - why do you think you do?

Remember it's 18 amp/hour "equivalent" which means it's actually about 6amp/hours in the battery. This is not a problem because it's almost impossible to get the full 18 amp/hours out of a lead acid battery before the voltage crashes, whereas the Lithium batteries will deliver nearly all of their full 6amp/hours before the output voltage drops. Also the Lithium battery will not self-drain anywhere near as fast as the lead acid, so you can leave it for weeks without the battery going flat.

I did in fact read the battery stuff.com description page for the 14 AH version (the smaller version), but I was discouraged by their language:

"We recommend using this battery in your regular commuters, your frequent play vehicles, and anything that may require that extra punch to start."

Keywords being REGULAR and FREQUENT. Unfortunately some months I only get out on my VFR once a week for an hour or so.

Do you think that's a concern with the smaller AH version? I just want to make the right choice given the price of these lithium batteries...

Link to 14 AH page:

http://www.batterystuff.com/batteries/lfx14a4-bs12.html

[PorradaVFR]

strange, after my oem battery died i put a yuasa in it. that battery is now 7 years old and still works perfectly. i do keep a battery tender on it 24/7 though.

Man, you must have a LONG extension cable.

[Roebling3]

I've had a Shoria battery in my Guzzi Daytona for nearly 2 years. I was interested at first due to the light weight and a better fit than any lead acid batteries 'currently' available. The Daytona carries its' battery in the tailpiece. It's always good to lower the CG (~-6#'s), and centralize it. The Shoria works great. Another advantage for me is that I don't ride that bike often. Details I've read include 'lightly' pre-loading the battery for several minutes before starting. The claim is that this re-structures the molecular chemistry in the battery and you will get greater voltage for starting. Seems to work for me. (+1 on the non-desulfating chargers).

BTW: I was replacing an 11 year old Westco AGM that is still performing well! Good fortune, R3~

[thegorilla]

Shorai batteries are great! I have them in my dirt bikes (510cc) and am super hard on them, dozens and dozens of starts per ride, occasionally a month or more between rides. The only time I've ever had a problem was when I left the headlight on all night after a ride and blew my charging fuse. One fuse and 20min on a 10amp charger later: Instant start!

Details I've read include 'lightly' pre-loading the battery for several minutes before starting. The claim is that this re-structures the molecular chemistry in the battery and you will get greater voltage for starting. Seems to work for me.

Oddly enough, 'pre-loading' is more important in cold temperatures and/or if the battery is low. If it's close to freezing, I leave the headlight on for a couple minutes while I put my helmet and gloves on, then kill the light and start the bike. It has noticably more cranking amps after the load.

From the Shorai FAQ page 'Cold Weather Performance Expectations' section (bold added by me):

Down to about 20 degrees Fahrenheit (-7C) most users find that they can start normally on first crank. If your headlight comes on at key-ON, it is good for the batteries to flow some current before cranking in cold weather. The suggested headlight-on time before cranking depends on the temperature. If starting at 40F/5C, 30 seconds will help wake the battery and increase cranking performance. If at 0F/-17C, leave the lights on for 4~5 minutes before cranking. The result will be a better first crank, and longer battery life.

[mello dude]

On the Li Iron batterys - ie MOTY -- - I have had one for 3 years and it has performed with no issues. But you still have to keep in mind the cold soak issue. These dont like to be cold for start up.

I have a voltmeter on my 5th gen and typically the battery will charge to 14v after a ride and over a few weeks it will settle around 13.3 v and stay there till your next ride. - But, I forgot about a cold shot we had down to around 40 Fahrenheit, and the battery sat for 24 hours. Voltage dropped to 12.2. That's the only time I have seen it there.

-- The thing was weak but the bike fired up. -- The thing with these still, is bring it inside if you know is going to get a cold temp soak. Mine has the quick connect on it and installing or uninstalling the MOTY is about as hard as plugging in a wall charger, so its not a hassle. But still gotta remember about cold. For the winter season, its just bring it in the house until next season. The moty sat for near 6 months and went from 13.5 to 13.4volts for the time. I like this, unplug it, bring it house and forget it. No fooling with a charger.

A note for fun.... my OEM Yuasa on my Valkyrie lasted 10 years before I just decided I was pushing my luck on the thing.

[spud786]

On the VFR, Ive had about 3 agm batteries, all have lasted more than 40,000 miles before weakening or developing flakyness. Sometimes I wonder what in Hell is wrong with everyones bikes. Kronic electrical problems.

For me I dont have time for 2 oz batteries that may or may not work in all conditions, but the AGM 14z batteries built for the fz1 and st1300, are the best for the vfr.