Suspension Obsession

[FHR]

FHR.... I'm not having nor have I had problems with the bars in hand, if anything I'd say that I can feel the road a little more do to the spring not being progressive,but I don't see that as a negitive ( which in your case could just be you're holding the grip too tight....Hands going to sleep).

Remember you want the forks and shock adjusted so you don't top-out, or bottom-out(part of what the sag adjustments all about), Go for roughly setting so 1/3rd of your movement happens at the top, and 2/3rds' at the bottom. That will be accomplished with your pre-loads.

Dampening can only be accomplished on the rear(of our bikes), so after you get the sag adjusted, take an average size straightslot screwdriver and ride to a store front where you can see you and your bike in the store window(mirror). Then you want to watch how your bike flows after you push down on it and release. It should return quickly, but not move afterwards(pogo). If it pogo's after it returns, you need to turn CW 1/4 turn then try it some more. I'd start with turning it in all way in(CW) and backing out 2 turns then 1/4 segments CW.

When you turn it(Dampener)in all the way keep a light touch on it, don't seat the screw hard to the bottom of the adjustment.

John, You may be right about me gripping too tight. But if so, it is my reaction to the jolts coming up through the bars, because that has definitely increased substantially. That was the most profound effect I felt. I'll make a conscious effort not to tighten up when it happens. But I'd like to get rid of the jolts!.

I believe I understand what you are saying about 2/3rds at the bottom and 1/3rd at the top. Is that the formula for where we want the sag set; i.e. 1/3 of the free sag taken up by the added rider sag, leaving the remaining 2/3 of the suspension to soak up whatever is thrown at it by the road? Adding preload to a too soft spring just uses up too much of that 2/3rds we're shooting for.

You're correct that the only OEM damping adjustment is rebound on the rear shock. What you have advised is consistent with what I've read in the Service Manual. What effect have you gotten from tightening the rear rebound damping? Has it equalized the front and rear rebound? (There is a Dave Moss video with him showing how to do that test standing alongside the bike and pushing down the front and rear at the same time to check the rebound. He said it took him a lot of practice to perfect it!)

I need to find out if adding greater damping adjustablility to my suspension will be worth it; like front rebound and compression front and rear. I think Jamie really knows his stuff and I can't wait to hear what he has to say. Thus those questions whether we can hope to achieve the best of both worlds from our suspension..

[Monk]

I'm tall enough to check the rebound while sitting on the bike and using a mirror/window, and I don't trust myself to do it the way Dave Moss does it (don't want to drop the bike).

I'd say watch the Dave Moss video as many times as it takes to understand what he's doing/saying is the way to go. I'm using the 1/3 top and 2/3 bottom as a perspective of what you're trying to do, but you still need to use a tape measure and set it up with the right numbers.

[JamieDaugherty]

Jamie, what spring rates front and rear would you recommend for a guy 225 lbs who wants to ride fairly aggressively (for his age ) doing canyons, some touring and commuting?

For a 225lb rider I would suggest a 1200lb/in (210N/mm) rear spring and 1.0kg/mm fork springs.

[Monk]

I'm finding, the deeper I get into this, that there's more to consider. I've thought about just putting the correct spring on my stock shock, but after reading Jamie's web-site, that our stock shock might not be a good way to go even if it was rebuilt, but to go to a more improved sportbike shock and get that rebuilt,and have the right valving and spring rate applied. Also Jamie told me to ask my local dealer if they can change out the spring(because some shops can't) on my style shock(which I asked them today), and not only that they can, but are involved with racing, and do rebuilds and valving as well(which is good to know I can use them when needed, but would rather Jamie do the work on what ever I end up with, as he is more VFR familiar). But one point they brought up, was that rebuilding shocks should be done at shorter intervals than my 30000 mile concern, they said that dirt bikes could need help in a 4 month time, where as a road racer could be weekly, and that a lot of that goes to oil and gases, just like our motor/clutch/brake/etc..

[JamieDaugherty]

I'm finding, the deeper I get into this, that there's more to consider. I've thought about just putting the correct spring on my stock shock, but after reading Jamie's web-site, that our stock shock might not be a good way to go even if it was rebuilt, but to go to a more improved sportbike shock and get that rebuilt,and have the right valving and spring rate applied. Also Jamie told me to ask my local dealer if they can change out the spring(because some shops can't) on my style shock(which I asked them today), and not only that they can, but are involved with racing, and do rebuilds and valving as well(which is good to know I can use them when needed, but would rather Jamie do the work on what ever I end up with, as he is more VFR familiar). But one point they brought up, was that rebuilding shocks should be done at shorter intervals than my 30000 mile concern, they said that dirt bikes could need help in a 4 month time, where as a road racer could be weekly, and that a lot of that goes to oil and gases, just like our motor/clutch/brake/etc..

I wouldn't give up on the stock shock just yet. Getting 30k or more use out of the OEM unit between rebuilds is easily achievable. Other shocks, such as the CBR929, are built with the same components as the VFR shock - all Showas are excellent quality shocks. A CBR shock will net you more adjustability and the remote reservoir helps keep the performance consistent during fast/hard riding.

[Gerrys02800]

FHR, as per our pm(s).

I was going to post a picture of the stock shock and a stocker re-done by JamieD. Now that the sun is out and warm I can get caught up. Front forks are done with new Sonic springs and here is the photo of the rear. Thank god I did not have to remove the exh system to do this... took me 4 hours... a slow.. carefull 4 hours. Some swearing was required in order to get everything lines up, but other than that... done. Re-greased the any bearing / cleaned and now I have to wait about 8 more days or so and all the gravel should be off the main roads.

[Guest]

Hi FHR, Certainly you can throw a ton of money at suspension to make your ride enjoyable.

Perhaps you do already but riding the curves without using your brakes will help immensely. Many suspension problems are basically rider problems that make your suspension go wankers. Street riding is nothing like road racing, braking is a sign of going too fast on the road.

I would kind of doubt if your suspension needs more than fresh oil and adjustment.

I’ve only had my ’06 VFR 800A for a few months and have only ridden a couple thousand miles on it when the weather has permitted on my days off work. I got a couple rides in last week. Today it snowed. I really love the bike. The only thing I have noticed that has caused me concern (not counting the looming specter raised by all the posts about electrical problems) is the suspension.

First, let me say I have very little knowledge or experience wrenching. I did put a fork kit and a Fox shock on my ’83 KTM dirt bike years ago, which did wonders BTW. I am only speaking from the perspective of what I feel when riding. I feel as though the bike, the front wheel actually, is not maintaining good contact with the road during turns on the less than perfect road surfaces we have in my area. I also hear a clunk sound periodically which gives me the impression (and I may be wrong) that it is on the rebound stroke in the front forks.

I have read and re-read the many posts about suspension fixes in this forum including the many helpful, knowledgeable posts by members like BaileyRock, JamieDaugherty and SEBSPEED about retrofitting shocks from other bikes to accomplish results on a budget. I’m trying to absorb all of that sometimes conflicting info and make sense of it. But it is coming slow (I’m old and don’t learn as quickly as I once did.)

I weigh 225 lbs, so, from what I’ve learned here so far, the factory settings are for much lighter riders than me and the stock suspension is undersprung, i.e. the spring rates of the forks and shock are not strong enough to support my weight and to adjust proper sag while keeping sufficient travel available, (not to mention valve issues.)

I feel the urge to fix the suspension. When talking with my buddy, a long–time rider who has a Ducati ST3s (with OEM Ohlins front and rear) about what options I might have, (e.g. change the fork springs and re-valve or a kit and a new rear spring and revalve or a new shock) he tells me we are old men who don’t push our bikes anywhere near their limits and I probably wouldn’t even notice the difference. While he’s right about the old part, I still think I would notice the difference in handling. The primary purpose of the suspension, after all, is to keep the wheels in contact with the road surface. Right? Better handling is also a safety feature. Right?

Before I go spending a bunch of cash without consulting “she who must be obeyed,” I think I should do some of the minor adjustments that are available, set the sag, and then test ride the variations. I have an ABS model so there is an external preload adjuster for the rear shock. When I turned it up only one click, the only difference I noticed was the front fork seemed to dip more under heavy braking. Clearly the front forks must be adjusted in balance with the rear. I’m not sure how to adjust the forks’ preload (anybody?) I believe it is the small screw head in the top center of each fork. I bought a service manual but I haven’t found info on adjusting the preload.

I have a dream set up in mind. I’ve checked the Ohlins’ website and priced a 3 way adjustable shock, compatible with a 6th generation VFR. Now I know why they call them shocks! I’ve also looked at the Traxxion kit to replace essentially all the internals of the forks, which is also expensive. Does Ohlin have such a thing for our VFR front forks or will they do a set? These suspension upgrades will add 35-40% cost to my bike, which of course does not translate into an equal amount of resale value (although the originals can be reinstalled if I sell it and the new units can be sold separately.)

Am I out of my mind obsessing over this? My thinking is, I can ride with a smile on my face or I can ride with a BIG smile on my face. Thanks for taking the time to read this, Any helpful suggestions will be gratefully considered.

[SEBSPEED]

I would kind of doubt if your suspension needs more than fresh oil and adjustment.

No amount of oil or adjustment will change the measured spring rate.

[JamieDaugherty]

I would kind of doubt if your suspension needs more than fresh oil and adjustment.

No amount of oil or adjustment will change the measured spring rate.

An no amount of spring rate can overcome poor damping!

[Guest]

Yeah new shocks and springs help but technique is king. My point is put a top professional on a mediocre bike and me on a pro level bike with 30 mph more top speed on the same track and see who will have the best time.

In 1984 I was club racing at Mid America Raceway (in Wentzville, Mo), had won the Saturday heat races in the 400 classes and felt confident about the finals on Sunday. I noticed another rider there on Sunday morning. I don't think he got there in time for practice. As I came into the first corner on lap 2 he came around me and probably had 10-20mph on me through the corner. He obviously was not using his brakes as hard as I was. It was an amazing demonstration on how our bikes, RZ350's, pretty evenly matched in specification, were not evenly ridden. It is a lesson that has stuck with me since. Oh the kid was Kevin Schwantz, a first year road racer.

I would kind of doubt if your suspension needs more than fresh oil and adjustment.

No amount of oil or adjustment will change the measured spring rate.

An no amount of spring rate can overcome poor damping!

[SEBSPEED]

Yeah new shocks and springs help but technique is king.

And the two sides of the coin here are... spend the time/money/effort to make our bikes better, or keep fighting an inadequate setup while trying to get better/faster.

Since you were riding the same bike, do you ever reflect on that situation 27 years ago and wonder if his setup was different from yours?

Some people actually change this stuff for comfort too, ya know.

[Gerrys02800]

If the base bike is set up for a 150-160lb rider and I am at 220 in addition to the weight of 3 Givi bags when I am on the road, why not work towards a more comfortable/stable ride?. Past experience with "thicker" oil has done nothing and when I raced Hare scrambles the suspension on my dirt bikes was always changes from stock with an incredible improvement in the way the bike handled.

At the beginning of 2010 I did all the sag measurements and rode it then mid summer I had the chance to ride a 04 VFR with the improved springs ( 1.0) and a CBR600 shock. His bike had the same 021's as me and the difference was more than enough to notice in the corners / straight and bumps. It was warranted to look into all threads to see who has done what and it did help that people have put up there body weight / height and ride style to gauge what a person should do.This is a bike I will have for at least 3 - 4 more years or longer if my son does not buy when he hits the right age. It does all that I want and I own it.

As Seb mentioned, small investment for rider improvement and comfort.

[Brown81]

Some people actually change this stuff for comfort too, ya know.

Yeah, you set the oem stuff stiff enough to resist bottoming, and it proceeds to beat the sh*t out of you.

And, it takes a lot more effort to ride around shot crap suspension.

If setting up or upgrading is an option for anybody, there would be zero reasons not to do it.

If Kevin Schwantz was cruising around on the street (or track or anywhere for that matter), you can bet your a$$ he's going to be on a bike with nicely sorted out suspension!

[FHR]

This thread has taken on a life of its own!

Yeah new shocks and springs help but technique is king. My point is put a top professional on a mediocre bike and me on a pro level bike with 30 mph more top speed on the same track and see who will have the best time.

Apex, you speak the truth, my friend. But I am no racer and at my age never will be. So my aim is not have the fastest time on the track in comparison to others', but to have the "best time" I possibly can.

Maybe a new shock and springs will help me improve my technique....

Hi FHR, Certainly you can throw a ton of money at suspension to make your ride enjoyable.

There you go! "Enjoyable" is at the heart of the matter.

And I have done just that. New Michelin PR 2's, Traxxion Ak-20 cartridge kit installed in the forks with compression and rebound adjustment built into the fork caps and Penske 8987 triple adjustable shock, both the forks and shock with springs and setup for my weight and intended uses. I also put on BLS' peg lowering blocks and some Helibars. I've only put 25 miles on since picking up my viffer from the shop yesterday; I'm working today and tomorrow I must fly to Iowa for my aunt's funeral on Saturday, so I can't give much of a report at this point. I can tell you that the difference is substantial right out of the box. It is like a different bike. I've read many reviews where people have said that; now I know it is not hyperbole, it is simply true. The ride is not plush but it is not harsh at all either. Before, through corners it seemed like I had to make constant adjustments to keep my line. Now, (and I know this is all premature with so little time in the saddle with the new setup) the bike just does what it is told. It is like: think it and it happens!

An example is a long left sweeper that is a 180 degree rotation which I have ridden several times before. It was a struggle to maintain a steady line through that turn at around 60-65mph. If I left a track on the road it would have looked squiggly. I drove the same turn on the way home from the shop and was pleasantly surprised how steady the line was. I think the expression is, "like it was on rails." I have heard that and now I have felt it. I glaced at the speedo and it read 75mph! The control is just there and so then is the confidence.

When I say "out of the box" I mean exactly that. The base line set by Traxxion and Penske have not been touched yet. I haven't even set the sag. But I'll bet it is pretty close to what it should be. I have not followed the scientific method of isolating one variable at a time and measuring the effect of each. So I can't say what or how much of the improvement is due to tires, springs or valving. I can't argue with anyone who asserts the changes I've described would have happened with just changing the tires or just stiffer springs to suit my weight or whatever. Although I can't contribute much to the debate on those issues, one thing is abundantly clear, I am a happy camper. I can't wait to.... No, what do they say in those TV ads?.... "I wanna ride." That says it all.

[FHR]

FHR, as per our pm(s).

I was going to post a picture of the stock shock and a stocker re-done by JamieD. Now that the sun is out and warm I can get caught up. Front forks are done with new Sonic springs and here is the photo of the rear. Thank god I did not have to remove the exh system to do this... took me 4 hours... a slow.. carefull 4 hours. Some swearing was required in order to get everything lines up, but other than that... done. Re-greased the any bearing / cleaned and now I have to wait about 8 more days or so and all the gravel should be off the main roads.

Gerry, I can't wait to hear how you like the fork spring and shock changes you made, when you are able to take her out on the road. My guess is you will be blown away and absolutely love it.

Good job on getting the shock in without pulling part of the exhaust system.The shop I took mine to had to pull everything.

[Gerrys02800]

Mine is the linked brake system and I think that you only have to do the whole exh system on the ABS unit only.

We have Good Friday off and I am going for a ride all day, and then Sat, and then Sun. The snow we had on Sunday should be gone by Tuesday if our current heat wave continues and the SOB weather man is not lying. I will post up as soon as I get home. Freaking can not wait. I have not been on the bike since like Oct 31st or so. Next test will be the Sargent seat......

[Gerrys02800]

First ride was on April 19^th. With light snow falling and my 1 finger salute to old man winter I put on my gear and left. With out the bags on and praying the light snow fall would not turn into a major storm I was going to every road with a corner(s) I could find. Right off the bat the most noticeable difference was the front end when I applied the front brakes and not having it "dive down". I found a new sub division which was empty and clear of gravel. I practiced a few "quick" emergency stops to get back into the groove. Went back to the main roads and went for a ride. The bike soaked up all the potholes / bumps. The snow also came to a halt.

Second ride April 23: Bike was filled with fresh fuel and I loaded up all three bags and the tank bag with what I would take on a 15 day trip with the exception of my 2 man tent/sleeping bag ( all light weight items ). I went for a 280 km ride and bottom line is it is indeed a different bike to ride. Handles just as perfect as it did when I first took it out with no bags attached. No dive, corners are confident and the bike just seems to "track" better. In the past going into a corner I always felt like the front end was going to slide out from underneath me when the bike was loaded with gear. Without the bags, the feeling was not so much. The rear suspension just soaked up everything. It does not feel loose, no bounce and with the 3 bags w/extra weight on the bike, feels like the bags are not even on.

It's not the best written report, but all I know is that the bike handles heads and tails better than when it was stock with the proper sag set up. As of today, I have not even set up the suspension yet. Long weekend no one around to help. Monday when I go to work, that will be taken care of.

Stock 2010:

Bike Mileage start of 2010: 10,682km (6637 miles)

BT021 - new

Rider w/ gear: 240lbs

Mileage logged for the year: 15,698km – 9754 miles

Redone 2011:

Bike Mileage start of 2011: 26,380km – 16,391miles

Rider w/gear 240lbs

BT023 - w/ 3700km logged on them – 2,299miles

Front Springs: 1.0 Sonic w/ SS-8 10w

Rear Shock: OEM VFR shock with 1200 spring/ re-valved by JD motorsports. I bought the rear shock (04) of a member on VFRD for $15.00 plus shipping and he was kind enough to send to Jamie.

G

[spud786]

You can set the rear sag, but its just going to blow through the compression damping, and theres no adjustment for that .

For your weight, Id run max preload on the rear shock regardless of sag, turn rebound damping 3/16ths to 1/4 turn clockwise exactly from stock setting.

But dont do this till youve stiffened the front end , as its the major source of high speed rough instabilty, Which in stock form will have your front end diving and your ass end kicking.

But there is nothing wrong with stock suspension on smooth road with anything near the speed limit, its very usable, it does need better set up when things get ruff.

So since you talking smooth road, if on a met z4 front its a horrible cornering tire for anything other than highway.

But if you want to make your stock suspension usable , Its doable

[Lint]

So, thread from the dead. What's an overweight guy supposed to do? 6'2" and 280lbs plus gear? What shock for the back? Springs for the front? Or should I just go buy a big Harley touring bike? J/K, I am losing weight, but obviously still have a ways to go.

[zupatun]

Here is my take and my experience:

Before the VFR that I picked up last April I rode a 2001 FZ1 for 5 years. It originally had the stock suspension (I was 6'1, 245 at the time) and was WAY soft. Luckily I live 5 miles from Traxxion Dynamics and one of the mechanice there also rode a Gen 1 FZ1, but his was loaded on suspension bits. He let me ride his and compared to mine it was like night and day, literally. So I ended up taking my forks to them and got 1.05 kg springs, new seals, valves and purchasing a Penske twin clicker rear shock with a 625 lb. spring and installing it myself (8981 if I remember right). The bike was competely new and different. Stiffer yes, but also ON RAILS. Best investment you can do.

So now I'm about 222 lbs and in the same boat as the OP with the VFR. The stock suspension is complete crap. Not to mention its now 8, almost 9, years old. Unfortunately I was laid off (yet again) last year and I'm only working PT currently. Hopefully this summer I'll get the VFR into Traxxion for some work as I'm turning 40 and am planning a 2 week trip on the VFR with my brother to parts unknown. Honestly if you plan on keeping a bike, ride often and spirited, suspension upgrades are a no brainer.

I have run gold valves in my 4th gen and both of my 5th gens and emulators in my SV650 track day bike. Balance that with shocks I've owned...Penske, Fox and currently Ohlins all were more adjustable predictable and performed better than Stock, or 929 (or the ZX10 shock on my SV) even with the correct spring. With Penske and Online you get what you pay for, but it is expensive.

As for forks, AK-20's will buy you a couple seconds a lap on Beaver run or Mid-Ohio over emulators but I can't vouch how much better over gold valves...but having comp and rebound adjustment is nice over nothing on stock except preload.

YMMV

Matt