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How to remove power limitations 1st and 2nd gear


Dutchgixxer
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Reading this I was wondering if they already had some changes done in the ECU update (that is available at least in Europe). I mean getting rid of the limitations in 1st/2nd gear. I have the update done but since it is winter hear in Finland it is a bit difficult to organize a Dyno test to find out. I asked this already on another forum if somebody had tested it but no comment yet.

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I spoke with the Honda-USA guys at the show. They have changed the ECU program to eliminate the problems that we have been trying to fix by adding Powercommanders, etc. They have told me that the second gear problem has been fixed because they have added traction control to protect their liability.

We also (only) get one color at a time in the USA, 2012 will be blue. 2010/2011 were both red.

No white, no silver, no black.. :sad:

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • Member Contributer

So, I bit the bullet and did this fix yesterday.

About 1/2 way through, I'm looking at body parts all over the garage on a brand-new bike, screws, bolts and clips rattling in a cup and a birds nest of clipped wires... I'm thinking "Oh hell... I screwed up and will never get all this back together."

Well, I did, and holy hell am I glad I did this. It's like a whole new bike. Power delivery in 1st and 2nd is notably more linear, low end grunt is really REALLY evident, not to mention the sound is even better due to the exhaust valve opening up in the useable rev range.

THANK you for the information guys, seriously.

Edited by Yokel
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I hope this is the right place for this.

I called Bazzaz today, ref Z-Bomb. Connection supplier says delivery is scheduled for the 13th. I'm waiting on the call next week to confirm and place my order. With a DCT I cannot take a chance with gear selection / identification problems at the ECU.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I hope this is the right place for this.

I called Bazzaz today, ref Z-Bomb. Connection supplier says delivery is scheduled for the 13th. I'm waiting on the call next week to confirm and place my order. With a DCT I cannot take a chance with gear selection / identification problems at the ECU.

Any news from Bazzaz?

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Guest sanemancured

Sorry for the delays. Connector only made at certain times of the year. It's ready.

VFR%20Z-bomb%20charts.jpg

Brilliant.

I hope you've got a good stock of those connectors :)

Did you think of adding a switch so that we would effectively have the option of traction control?

Peter

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  • 4 weeks later...
  • Member Contributer

All this 1200 talk has got me wanting one now... Maybe this will be the replacement bike for when I'm back on my financial feet again. Nice to see that this place played a big part in figuring out and correcting the flawed "Honda knows best" thinking!

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  • 5 months later...

I'm not sure if I want to "fix" that dump in my 2010, first of the Z bomb on ebay says it dont work for DCT models. Plus that bog only bothers me in sport mode, I use drive for bad weather etc [since Honda got stingy and used 2010 as test rabbits, so TC didnt come out till now...]. I rode winth S mode all the time at first but even in San Diego during winter it rains sometimes, and after almost kissing a HVY divider I decided that speed+power+rain=a very bad day, pure luck and a little bit of skill taken from sliding around on my old 750 rear drum brake kept me from lowsiding. TC is a must if youre planning on going full power in bad weather. Now if any one ever ghettorigged a mod that would eliminate the bog in sport mode and manual only than hell yea but for now I think its a bad idea, unless you never ride in rain that is.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...

For the life of me I can't imagine how anyone could look at those dyno charts and NOT spend the relatively paltry price for a Z-Bomb. While some might say it's too much power in the lower gears, I say look at how smooooth the torque curve is with the z-bomb installed! The peaks and valleys are gone, so no unpleasant surprises. Now the power delivery is controlled by your right hand instead of a little microchip in a little silver box. That's how it should be.

D Dave

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  • 2 weeks later...

First off...congrats to dutchgixxer for being what appears, on the verge of solving the lower gear power limitation. But would someone help me out here? I may have missed it but in all the reading of posts, I have not seen it addressed why the VFR1200 was detuned in the first place. Somewhere....in Japan...around some engineering table, the decision was made to do this. On a bike that is already at or beyond the maximum consumer price point, why did they elect for the added production costs of the sensors and what-not for this detuning? Was it to make the rear tire last longer? Was it to keep the front wheel on the ground? Was it to keep the rear passenger on the seat? Was it to prevent over-torqueing the shaft drive system? Somewhere out there is THE valid reason this was settled upon in that engineering room. I'm like everyone else in that there is a never ending desire for more power but before I snipped or jumpered anything on my brand new bike, I would have to understand what was on the minds of the people that built it that way. I understand rev limiters and I understand max speed cutouts designed in some bikes but this detuning in those lower gears is for some other reason. Please anyone/everyone give me your best guess as to what the reasoning might be. Thanks in advance.

I have derestricted the 1st and 2nd gear power limitations. I have made a simple scematic :

attachicon.gifGearposition_sensor_VFR1200f.jpg

attachicon.gifGPS_mod.jpg

You will get falsh readings on the dash when 1st or 2nd gear are engaged.

I am busy decoding the serial link between ECU and dash.

To be continued

While this looks feasible in some respects, I would caution that unless you know what the I/O interface properties are, you may be violating circuit constraints which would then risk a blown sensor or worse. I offer the following scenarios:

1. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted Low (or simply grounded) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired OR gate and will logically work.

2. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted High (or simply opened) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired AND gate and will NOT work as all 3 outputs must be asserted High simultaneously which will never happen.

3. Each output of the GPS is a CMOS type output that is asserted High (i.e. actively driven high) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a definite circuit rules violation as the output that is attempted to be driven high will be actively countered by the other two outputs which are actively driven Low, thus causing a near direct short to the supply voltage and maybe a fried GPS.

Perhaps you've already found that it does work as shown, in which case scenario #1 is most likely true. If it doesn't work, then beware of scenario #3 which could end up costing you some $$$ to fix.

Good luck in your efforts, I wish I could do the same but the DCT control needs to know the actual gear selection otherwise it would be constantly trying to downshift below third and never finding it.

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

I saw a video of the VFR1200 being driven by a journalist at a japanese track way back at the initial release and he spun out the rear wheel...saved it, but still... I have a feeling 'if you don't know what your doing' the torque at the rear wheel will bite you in 1st or 2nd gear in this new VFR1200, so Honda played it safe. That's all they needed, all kinds of stories about it being a 'dangerous' bike. I think that is why is has been restricted...poor man's traction control.

Brian

I have also heard that the new 2012 bikes with TC also keep this restriction!

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  • 2 weeks later...

First off...congrats to dutchgixxer for being what appears, on the verge of solving the lower gear power limitation. But would someone help me out here? I may have missed it but in all the reading of posts, I have not seen it addressed why the VFR1200 was detuned in the first place. Somewhere....in Japan...around some engineering table, the decision was made to do this. On a bike that is already at or beyond the maximum consumer price point, why did they elect for the added production costs of the sensors and what-not for this detuning? Was it to make the rear tire last longer? Was it to keep the front wheel on the ground? Was it to keep the rear passenger on the seat? Was it to prevent over-torqueing the shaft drive system? Somewhere out there is THE valid reason this was settled upon in that engineering room. I'm like everyone else in that there is a never ending desire for more power but before I snipped or jumpered anything on my brand new bike, I would have to understand what was on the minds of the people that built it that way. I understand rev limiters and I understand max speed cutouts designed in some bikes but this detuning in those lower gears is for some other reason. Please anyone/everyone give me your best guess as to what the reasoning might be. Thanks in advance.

I have derestricted the 1st and 2nd gear power limitations. I have made a simple scematic :

attachicon.gifGearposition_sensor_VFR1200f.jpg

attachicon.gifGPS_mod.jpg

You will get falsh readings on the dash when 1st or 2nd gear are engaged.

I am busy decoding the serial link between ECU and dash.

To be continued

While this looks feasible in some respects, I would caution that unless you know what the I/O interface properties are, you may be violating circuit constraints which would then risk a blown sensor or worse. I offer the following scenarios:

1. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted Low (or simply grounded) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired OR gate and will logically work.

2. Each output of the GPS is an open drain that is asserted High (or simply opened) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a wired AND gate and will NOT work as all 3 outputs must be asserted High simultaneously which will never happen.

3. Each output of the GPS is a CMOS type output that is asserted High (i.e. actively driven high) for a given gear selection. Then tying 3 output wires together into one input as you have shown is a definite circuit rules violation as the output that is attempted to be driven high will be actively countered by the other two outputs which are actively driven Low, thus causing a near direct short to the supply voltage and maybe a fried GPS.

Perhaps you've already found that it does work as shown, in which case scenario #1 is most likely true. If it doesn't work, then beware of scenario #3 which could end up costing you some $$$ to fix.

Good luck in your efforts, I wish I could do the same but the DCT control needs to know the actual gear selection otherwise it would be constantly trying to downshift below third and never finding it.

Did you see that youtube video of the kid that throws down his brand new gixxer as he guns it out of the dealership? Rear wheel just spins out like the tire was made out of plastic! Then down she goes...

I saw a video of the VFR1200 being driven by a journalist at a japanese track way back at the initial release and he spun out the rear wheel...saved it, but still... I have a feeling 'if you don't know what your doing' the torque at the rear wheel will bite you in 1st or 2nd gear in this new VFR1200, so Honda played it safe. That's all they needed, all kinds of stories about it being a 'dangerous' bike. I think that is why is has been restricted...poor man's traction control.

Brian

I have also heard that the new 2012 bikes with TC also keep this restriction!

Yes the 2013 is still restricted although I haven't measured it on a dyno yet. My 2013 felt like the real potential did not arrive in 1st or 2nd gear until well up into the RPM band. It felt like there was a hesitation in the 3 to 5 thousand RPM range. Installed the Z Bomb and everything changed in 1st gear. Suddenly the bike was trying to lift the front wheel in 1st which the traction control immediately kicked in and shut down the fun (TC light comes on and bring the front back down, feels like hitting the rev limiter). Turn the TC off with the ZBomb installed and the bike will now do nice but not dangerous power wheelys in 1st gear. This is with a compleatly stock bike except for the Z Bomb. I will have the bike on a dyno sometime in November after making all the changes I have planned. I want to quantify on a Dynojet how much difference the Z Bomb de-restriction makes on my 2013.

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  • 1 year later...

Resurrecting this thread as someone may know the answer to a question I have.

Apart from the power restriction we know about, how else does the gear position affect the behaviour of the ECU? What would be the effect of modifying the wiring so that the ECU thought it was in e.g. 4th, all the time (apart from when in neutral of course)?

Since we now know that some bikes have restrictions in 1, 2, 3 and 6, forcing the ECU to think it was always in fourth would prevent any restriction, but what other effect would that have?

I've not been able to think of any other reason for the ECU to know what gear it is in. Anyone any ideas about this?

Please ignore the fact that the gear position indicator would be useless as that's not relevant to what I'm trying to do. I just want to know if there would be any detrimental effect on how the ECU ran the engine.

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  • 1 month later...

I found the reason Honda limits first gear power:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sportrider.com%2Fbikes%2F2010-honda-vfr1200f-dct-change-we-can-believe&ei=Ju3LVOjhLIalyQTvlICwBg&usg=AFQjCNE8nwOAdhNGDTvgwz6RPKJsH-LZ0g&sig2=MAiGJSI-QnA8c1Gol1j25Q

"The differences between the standard transmission and the DCT model are even more pronounced when pushing the limits of what the bike is meant for. Because the "dual" in dual clutch transmission is really two halves of a single clutch (which is explained further in the accompanying sidebar), their overall strength is reduced. In order to quell the 142 horsepower and 81.4 ft-lb of torque during hard launches, the ECU will pull back power so as to not destroy the clutch. Full power is then restored once road and engine speed are deemed to be at a level the clutch can handle."

So it sounds like a bad idea to remove this restriction.

Edited by RogueWave
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Oh,oh.Honda designed a clutch system,on the edge of destruction with added power.Highly unlikely. If you added nitrous or launched your dct hard continuously, i could see quicker clutch wear. Reflash,pipe,K/N filter, decat exaust. I'm not considered.I don't abuse my bike and maintain it to a T. I'm not drag racing,so that I'm sure the clutch will hold up to the added power from my DCT. The extra power adds to the fun factor,.The extra 15-20 hp won't damage the bike,in my opinion. Time will tell.

Edited by motorn
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The SportRider journalists are totally wrong.

The torque that the clutch has to manage is the same in 1st gear as in 6th gear, because the clutch is "before" the gear box.

Are they aware that when an old clutch start to slip, it is a lot more noticeable in the higher gears?
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Its not the same. As the engine will rev up more freely in the lower gears than the taller gears. That is why a worn clutch is so noticeable in 6th gear. It takes much more torque to accelerate the bike in taller gears than shorter gears. i.e. more torque, more of a load.

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Then, why to limit the first 2 gears?

The reason is another (I don't know it, Honda does), not the torque limit of Dual Clutch.

Was explained by honda germany few times. In a few words - driveshaft, torque, safety and lack of TC.

Why so drastic meassures? Hell I dunno.

Edited by satariel666
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