Frankenviffer Front End Or Valve Job

[Bren]

I´ve been having to make some serious decisions the last while. The company I work for has made a lot of people redundant the last few months and while my job is safe for the moment we have been put onto part-time hours.

As some of you may remember I´ve been colecting bits for my SP1 front end swap for, an eternity, about 2 years. Responsiblities mean I had to wait till the right prices came up. I have nearly everything, apart from some 929 Helibars HINT HINT!! and then some bits and pieces like braided lines etc.

So I need to decide if I will sell all the bits I´ve got so far and get my money back, possibly even a bit more, and then do a valve job instead which would be cheaper.

Sooooo.......I would like opinions from those who have done either or both of these mods on the pros and cons of each. In my heart I want an SP1 front end but if it really doesnt set the world alight and has too many ill-effects on other things I´d like to hear it. Likewise if the valve job didnt give you a "chubby" despite costing also a large chunk of money then that is also to go in the pot.

Please be as honest as poss, if something isnt what you expected...out with it. :musik20:

Thanks for taking the time. :laugh:

Bren

[melvis]

Good luck holding your gig down - these are hairy times indeed! As to your question, haven't done the valves (I'm assuming you're talking performance mod, not just checking).

I did drop in RaceTech Gold Valves and springs to my forks a while back and that sure did make a big difference (at a much reduced cost) and made handling a much more planted affair. Seeing as how you have nearly all the bits to do a Frankenforkage intervention, why not go for it? The look and performance alone would be pretty boffo as far as I'm concerned. If I had the $$ and the time, I'd prolly take my suspenders front and rear to the next level before messing too much more with the engine... My 2 cents...

[FotoMoto]

A valve job usually denotes engine head work. When speaking about forks, it's typically referred to as a "re-valve" or upgrade the internals; etc.

Anyhoo,

I seem to have done it all at one time or another on one bike or another:

springs only with new fluid

fork brace

racetech internals on stock fork self-installed

upgraded fork (larger F4i) with racetech internals previously installed

USD stock forks (even larger RC51 units)

and currently:

modded USD forks (RC51) with Dan Kyle internals done by them to my specs.

The current DK setup is easily the best and also allows for better brakes unlike a re-valve. Cons are costs, modifications to fit, numerous additional parts (entire front end, not just fork tubes) and 5/6 gen'ers would also need to address the LBS issues.

Not sure about your 5gen but on my 4gen I found the best fork tube height gave me enough room to mount clip ons ABOVE the triple. I do have some ducati high rise clip ons available that are probably very similar to the heli's. ($125 shipped) Here's a couple of pics:

[mello dude]

I went with Traxxion Dynamics full upgrade - (pricey) and am super happy with the way the bike handles. - I have a Penscke two way adjustable in the rear. The whole hog is with VTR lowers/VFR800 uppers and RC51 brakes.

Now a few years back when I did this, I was over focused on shit canning the linked brakes, so my feeble brain was not neccessariliy head scratchn on a full fork swap. And then I wanted 4th gen ergos, I didnt want to try different clip ons over and over till I find something I liked if I did a fork swap...--- Ok TMI.....

But 3 years out with the bike all together the thing is still awesome, and goes where I point it in the corners, no fuss, no muss. Wanna change lines? Think it, it goes. Wanna stop fricken now? Grab them suckers, and it hauls down. Wanna brake front/rear only? Its there.

But...... I still wonder if I had spent more time on VFRD, if I would have done the SP-1 route, what that would feel like. I still would like to ride one to see if there is a difference for me. -- Just to know. -- Realistically I've blown an absurd amount of bucks on the damn thing and a second fork it job just aint gonna happen unless I hit the lotto. ----- I really dont know how to vote this one.

MD

[mello dude]

FotoMoto - that is a sweet job! I never get tired of looking at it...

MD

[JamieDaugherty]

Here are my thoughts:

Stock front suspension - Not terrible, but once you even start to push it you will notice limitations. If you are still a "learning" rider then it's probably better to hone your skills first.

Modified stock forks (revalved) - Big improvement in both handling and ride quality/comfort. Folks are often amazed at the latter part. The damping becomes way more controlled and the ability to hold a line an absorb irregularities is much better. If you are a commuter that wants more control or take a trip to a place with decent roads once a year then this setup would be my suggestion. Take the money you saved over the following option and put it into the rear shock.

Inverted fork swap - The inverted forks basically give you one thing: less deflection. Unless you are pushing pretty hard you won't notice a huge difference. The internals are pretty much the same. Any improvements that could be made to the stock forks would make at least the same change to the inverted forks. If you ride hard, run track days, have no chicken strips, etc. then this kind of a swap would be for you.

As I eluded to, the rear shock is similar. Contrary to popular belief, if you address one end and leave the other end stock it will not make things worse. An improvement is an improvement, plain and simple. Even so, before you consider going "whole hog" on the forks you should consider an upgrade to the shock first. I'd upgrade springs on both ends first, then valving, then consider a front end swap. That way you can build your skills as you go.

[enzed_viffer]

Some of this depends on your weight: if you're light, then it's not a big deal, but the stock fork springs are 0.74kg/mm. If you weigh say 190-200 pooonds, then you'll need 0.95 springs. This is a cheap and easy fix, which makes a big difference to fork dive on braking, and also gives you a more compliant ride, as the forks can operate over a larger part of their travel.

The stock compression damping doesn't handle sharp bumps well, as the ports are too small, so its action is somewhat harsh.

Up until last week, I'd had nearly 18 months with an upgraded rear shock (Elka) and only new front fork springs. For a while before that, I had the standard fork springs and the new shock. It wasn't bad, but having good suspension action in the back did highlight the front's deficiencies. Putting new springs in helped, but then that highlighted the worn bushes in the front, and made the harsh damping over bumps even worse, so I had to run a lot less preload in the front to soften it up a little.

The biggest difference I've noticed with the upgrade is improvement in cornering performance. It's a been a long while, so I can't remember the ride before the upgrade (except over ripples and series of bumps, which was awful), and the bike is now fairly firmly sprung, so it's not a 'cushy' ride. However, it's less tiring, and the bike feels like it's riding along level, rather than going up and down at either end. In corners, the suspension's doing its thing, rather than interfering with the steering. It's amazing how much easier it is to ride, and now I don't have to avoid bumps, it doesn't run wide, it's easier to change direction mid-corner, and it's a lot less tiring.

[Bren]

Thanks for the answers.

I have been riding for 18 years, 2 1/2 as a courier in London so I´m confident with most bikes. As far as the rear goes I already have an Öhlins out the back which I got a few months back and which has really highlighted the deficencies in the front end even more, plus the brakes. As Jamie said about deflection I can feel the forks flexing under hard riding and it is something that puts me off. I looked for a fork brace a few years ago and couldnt find one then thought this mod would also have the desired effect except with more bling.

As I said in the original post I have nearly everything except for the bars,brake lines and some bolts etc. Foto those clip-ons would push the bar to the front side of the fork and make the reach too far and possibly introduce clearance problems. Thanks anyway.

I need to think this one over some more.

Bren

[mrmatt]

I've also put some inverted forks on my 4th gen and for me it feels like it falls in to corners more quickly, but mine are the 954 forks so the geometry is different (shorter) which might be all I'm feeling, plus an aggressive tire. I can definately tell a difference in the brakes, much more responsive, but as for cornering I'm not the best judge as I've only been riding a year and a half (with an interruption last summer to change my head gaskets). I'd go for it since you already have most of the parts, and it is a straight bolt on with only a few minor changes.

[FotoMoto]

FotoMoto - that is a sweet job! I never get tired of looking at it...

THANKS Mello.

Foto those clip-ons would push the bar to the front side of the fork and make the reach too far and possibly introduce clearance problems. Thanks anyway.

Yeah, I forgot I have a totally different fairing design so I can't comment on clearances. Also, remember these triples have less offset than stock so the the fork tubes are mounted further back thus the reach isn't as far as you'd think.

If you're using the bike for courier duty, I'd recommend going with a fork re-valve.

[VFR Capt.Bob]

Hard to answer you survey as I can only speak as to what I've done.

I did the Elka rear shock and complete racetech revalve with compression and rebound valves. The bike doesn't look as trick and the Frankenviffer projects I see here but suits my aggressive canyon riding and occasional track day needs. Not sure what you have invested in parts, but if I need a better track sled than the VFR I'll just shop for a seperate track bike. Since 90% of my riding is on the street or canyons, I'm not feeling the need to over modify.

Just remember the real trick is getting everything dialed in correctly. In your case I'd say if you got the parts and the time then go for it.

[Bren]

Thanks again for more replies :angry:

No more courier duty, thats when I was young and bones healed quick :rolleyes: Not for me anymore.

The thing is I can sell the stuff on and get minimum my money back but I have to do something with the front. Its taken 2 years to collect the bits so far and if its an equal or better ride as a re-valve, without too many sacrifices, I dont know like not being able to use the center stand or...then I will wait till I get the rest of the stuff and do it.

Would like to know the pitfalls before I go too far thats all.

Thanks again.

Happy 100th post to me!! soon have the same count as BR!

[SAFE-T]

No matter how good your re-valve is on the stock fork, you will not change the fork deflection and brake issues.

Aside from that, why throw away two years of hard work finding the SP-1 front boingers ?

[Bren]

No matter how good your re-valve is on the stock fork, you will not change the fork deflection and brake issues.

Aside from that, why throw away two years of hard work finding the SP-1 front boingers ?

Spot on about the deflection and brakes. Better brakes is one of the reasons why I want this.

Actually I found the forks right at the beginning, it was the front wheel that took a long time to get hold of.

Ohhh my back, my back. :unsure:

Well as you´ve done it tell me what, if any, are the sacrifices or drawbacks. I will obviously have to remove the steering stops from the sp1 triple tree, then I cant sell it on. And I know one mans opinion is only that, an opinion.

Bren

[JamieDaugherty]

No matter how good your re-valve is on the stock fork, you will not change the fork deflection and brake issues.

Aside from that, why throw away two years of hard work finding the SP-1 front boingers ?

That's not really a problem until you start to push it pretty hard. Thus my comment about the stock front being ok for those folks who aren't testing the limits. Of course, less deflection and more brakes help us all!

[Baileyrock]

You could always just slap a set of f4/f4i (CBR600 fireblade?)forks on your 5th gen, you would get less deflection with the larger 43mm tubes, better brakes, and fully adjustable forks. Use 6th gen trees, your vfr wheel, rotors & axle, F4/F4i calipers, m/c, fender & lines. Ideally you would revalve and re-spring them too.

Should be much cheaper and easier to find. :blink:

[Bren]

You could always just slap a set of f4/f4i (CBR600 fireblade?)forks on your 5th gen, you would get less deflection with the larger 43mm tubes, better brakes, and fully adjustable forks. Use 6th gen trees, your vfr wheel, rotors & axle, F4/F4i calipers, m/c, fender & lines. Ideally you would revalve and re-spring them too.

Should be much cheaper and easier to find. :cool:

Thanks BR but I have most of the stuff already.

WTB CBR 929 HELIBARS!!!!!! anyone?

Bren

[JamieDaugherty]

My guess would be that the folks who voted for "Front end is as good as a well sorted, sorted thing" are people who haven't ridden and upgraded setup! Once you do it becomes painfully apparent the weaknesses of the stock suspension. It's not bad, it's just that there is a lot of improvement possible. Definitely not "sorted" by any stretch of the imagination.

[SAFE-T]

As you've done it tell me what, if any, are the sacrifices or drawbacks. I will obviously have to remove the steering stops from the sp1 triple tree, then I cant sell it on. And I know one mans opinion is only that, an opinion.

Bren

The only real drawback is taking the time to find all the parts as RC51 bits are getting rarer. Thankfully you can also use 929/954 lowers as well, and other VFR owners have

used the new R1 forks with the radial calipers.

As I understand it, the 4th gen has some clearance issues regarding the oil cooler and upper inner fairing the 5th gen doesn't. Read through some posts and send out some PM's if you have any questions there.

The single biggest reason I swapped out my front end was because I wanted to do it. I am sure I would have been just as happy functionally with upgrading the original fork as I don't really think my riding style requires bigger brakes and a stiffer fork.

[Guest]

You could always just slap a set of f4/f4i (CBR600 fireblade?)forks on your 5th gen, you would get less deflection with the larger 43mm tubes, better brakes, and fully adjustable forks. Use 6th gen trees, your vfr wheel, rotors & axle, F4/F4i calipers, m/c, fender & lines. Ideally you would revalve and re-spring them too.

Should be much cheaper and easier to find. :cool:

Is this the easiest way to upgrade the forks on a 5th gen? The suspension is totally not enough for me (I'm 270lbs at the moment :blush: ) and so I'm thinking of ways to upgrade, but I want to do a minimum of modifications, just bolt on and go sort of thing. Not that I'm opposed to doing the work, just want something I don't have to fuss with a lot :happy: Not an extreme MotoGP wannabe, my Viffer is mostly for cruising around town when I don't have wife and baby and a little canyon carving on weekends. Oddly enough, I loved the suspension in my SV1000N. Felt perfectly stiff and held corners well, but I had every setting maxed. Every setting maxed on the Viffer so far feels a little... Mushy. But then, I also have worn out tires so I dunno.

Anyway, would a revalved/resprung F4i fork swap and a revalved/resprung 929 rear be enough and be easy enough? :fing02:

- Patrick

[Baileyrock]

You could always just slap a set of f4/f4i (CBR600 fireblade?)forks on your 5th gen, you would get less deflection with the larger 43mm tubes, better brakes, and fully adjustable forks. Use 6th gen trees, your vfr wheel, rotors & axle, F4/F4i calipers, m/c, fender & lines. Ideally you would revalve and re-spring them too.

Should be much cheaper and easier to find. :cool:

Is this the easiest way to upgrade the forks on a 5th gen? The suspension is totally not enough for me (I'm 270lbs at the moment :blush: ) and so I'm thinking of ways to upgrade, but I want to do a minimum of modifications, just bolt on and go sort of thing. Not that I'm opposed to doing the work, just want something I don't have to fuss with a lot :happy: Not an extreme MotoGP wannabe, my Viffer is mostly for cruising around town when I don't have wife and baby and a little canyon carving on weekends. Oddly enough, I loved the suspension in my SV1000N. Felt perfectly stiff and held corners well, but I had every setting maxed. Every setting maxed on the Viffer so far feels a little... Mushy. But then, I also have worn out tires so I dunno.

Anyway, would a revalved/resprung F4i fork swap and a revalved/resprung 929 rear be enough and be easy enough? :fing02:

- Patrick

The easist thing would be to Re-valve your stock forks w/approate springs and maybe install CBR F3 rebound damping rod assy. Then toss a modded 929 shock on the back(see JamieDaughtery), this way would allow you to keep and not mess with the link brake system. Every other option will require you to deal with de-linking the brakes. :cool:

[Guest]

The easist thing would be to Re-valve your stock forks w/approate springs and maybe install CBR F3 rebound damping rod assy. Then toss a modded 929 shock on the back(see JamieDaughtery), this way would allow you to keep and not mess with the link brake system. Every other option will require you to deal with de-linking the brakes. :cool:

What about swapping worked over 6th gen forks/triple tree? 6th gen is bigger diameter (but still soft sprung like the 5th gen), right? Still would probably have to figure out the LBS but then the 6th gen has LBS as well. But would it really get that much of an improvement for a couple mm bigger diameter?

- Patrick

[The Phantom]

Patrick, the 43mm forks of the 6th Gen do give it a very different feel - it's probably a similar (or identical) springrate but the extra stiffness is immediately noticable. I think it handles a lot better than earlier 41mm-forked VFRs - I rode a 3rd Gen, a 4th Gen and a 6th Gen back-to-back when the 6th Gen first came out, and it surprised me with how much better it felt.

LBS should not be difficult, it's fairly easy to disconnect it altogether if required.

Other Hondas with 43mm forks are CBR1100XX and CBR600F4.