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Well, I just had the same problem with my 05'

My 05’ was running perfect before I just did a full tune up. I checked the valves, changed the plugs, changed the air filter, replaced the coolant, replaced the brake fluid and pads and replaced the clutch fluid.. When I was done I got on the bike and she was smoother than she had ever been, until about 15 or 20 min later then she started to surge very noticeably at all steady throttle openings. She was almost impossible to ride in tricky throttle situations. She had never surged before. BTW, all plumbing on the bike is stock.

Since I did not have to change any lifters I figured that I put something back together wrong.

At that point I figured I had a vacuum problem, either a leak or a pinched vacuum hose. Well it turned out I had two pinched hoses, one the vacuum line that runs around the front of the air box to the vacuum canister just forward of the air box. The line was pinched under the air box. It is kind of a tricky location for you can’t see the line when you place the air box down and on mine it appears to have compressed when it was caught under the air box when I reinstalled the box.

The second pinched line that "may" have been pinched was my coolant overflow line from the radiator on the right side traveling across the almost same location as the vacuum line as it heads over to the left side of the bike to the coolant reservoir.

After I fixed both of those all the surging was gone.

Oh ya, my stacks are small front, tall rear, it is how it came and I left them that way.

Edited by rad
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Ressurecting this thread so as not to open another... Having the typical surging or dead-spots at 3500 and 4500 RPM... I can live with those, almost, but what IS worrying me is the VTEC transition. I

Sorry mate, but the PGM-FI control unit on the VFR just isn't that smart. Only vehicles with the newer OBD-II (Onboard Vehicle Diagnostics) can guarantee such levels of diagnostic capability. Even t

TPS is circled in red

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I have an 05' w/ABS, and for about a year now I've done just about everything I can think of to eliminate a hot running surging problem. This symptom doesn't appear until the engine temp is over 200F, and is a lot more pronounced in 1st/2nd gear at the usual 4-5.5k rpm range, although it's still present but less pronounced in other gears at higher rpms. It's definitely a hot running problem...which pretty much means it runs badly during the summer months here in SoCal.

Here is a little history...

When I first got the bike, within a month or so I removed the flapper valve, PAIR system, and sync'd the starter valves. I also installed a set of Staintunes, and all tubing for the flapper and PAIR was yanked and capped off, and as far as I can tell I don't have a vacuum leak. Later on I added a PCIII USB and O2 Eliminators to help smooth out low rpm snatchiness, and when that helped but didn't eliminate the on/off transition, I also tried the Turbo City fuel pressure regulator. Never could get a working combination that totally got rid of the problem, so I decided to just live with it.

When my bike was apart this past September after a minor low-side, I went back to the stock fuel pressure regulator, and decided to replace the internal fuel filter and sparkplugs in case either might be a contributing factor to this problem. I also sent the PCIII back to Dynojet for testing, and even though they didn't find anything wrong with it, they sent me a brand new one. Also tested the O2 Eliminators...they weren't exactly 300 ohms if I remember correctly...just a little less at 290 ohms or so. Well within a 5% tolerance though...

This past weekend I loaded a zero PCIII map just to see what would happen, and once the bike got hot it surged even worse than before. It's tough to explain the surging, but it's as if the engine is stumbling...either from a severe lack of air or fuel.

Anyway, I'm about to give up and sell this thing as I can't believe I'm supposed to deal with a bike that runs like this. Any help comments would be appreciated...

My 04vfr did the same thing, really bad when its hot and im in traffic thats moving slow, 10-40mph and in 1, 2, 3gears my bike has always did this and is stock. i just removed the 02sensors and it ran great for a few days, then today in town it was acting up really bad, makes me nerves to ride it. It will also do this at highway speeds, feels like its slowing down so you give it more throttle but nothing happens then a little more and all the sudden it jumps forward. My bike was bought brand new 3months ago. Its a piece of #!$@.

Edited by adam79
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Guest marcoma

Mines just started acting up - my hunch is a TPS or a sticking cold start valve. Or it may be as simple as a hose off somewhere.

I'll check it out this weekend and post my findings here.

If anyone has any other suggestions to look for, please....... I'm open to input.

Thanks

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Hey NVR2L8,

Glad that you've seemed to "fix" your issues.

FWIW, I went to a PCIII a few years ago and before I did, I did a fair bit of research on who seemed to be most happy with their PC's. It was pretty apparent at the time that the people that were having the best results with their PC's were those that had custom maps made. I went that route and the improvement was very worthwhile...........i.e. well made custom map is the way to go IMHO. I have a friend with an '04 and he was having the same frustrating hesitation/surging issues that many of us have experienced...got a PC and tried DJ's maps and a map from a member here with no consistent improvement in general with any of these maps. Finally got him to try my map(he was concerned that since his bike was setup different than mine it wouldn't work well) and he's a happy camper now.........issues virtually gone.

PM me if you need more info,

Craig

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Wow. This is starting to sound familiar. I just posted a fix under the vtech electrical problems that sounds a lot like this. Temperature sensitive surging/ poor steady state throttle response. I put in o2 eliminators in an effort to get rid of the surge, and it got better, but never fully went away. Finally it started to get really bad. The fix was maintenance of the engine management electrical connectors. Several folks posted that their problems started or got worse when they worked on stuff on the right side of the bike – maybe moved the harness? Someone else who is having a problem needs to try this and confirm. Wouldn’t it be interesting if all of the surging issues were nothing more than a high resistance engine management connection?

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...st&p=429571

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In reference to moving the velocity stacks......this can have a profound effect on engine perfomance as the length / diameter of the stacks affect intake air flow speed. Taller / narrower increase speed and shorter / wider reduce the speed.

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I've been meaning to post my recent findings...

If you've read thru the entire thread where I discussed some of the mods I have done to my bike, as well as some of the things I did that had an affect as I tried to eliminate the hot running surging, one of the first things that stood out as a partial fix were the velocity stacks.

The arrangement of the velocity stacks in this configuration, “Left Front: Short”, “Right Front: Tall”, “Left Rear: Tall”, and “Right Rear: Short”, made a definite difference. I commute to work on my VFR every day, so I believe I ride it enough to be able to tell when something makes it run better or worse. The velocity stacks in the above arrangement seemed to help but didn’t totally eliminate the hot surging.

I had already done most of the electrical mods, such as the 30-amp fuse fix, left-side blue connector ground wire, and so on, but since my bike is fairly new and the wiring seems to be okay so far, I thought of these mods/upgrades as preventive measures since none of them affected the surging. What I didn’t realize is that my particular surging problem was related to the electrical system.

About 3-4 months ago I noticed that my barely 2-year-old battery was starting to act up. In the summer mornings it seemed as though the engine was becoming harder to start, and when I hit the starter button it took several revolutions until the engine started. Work with me on the sound effects here, but it was like “woo woo, woo woo, woo woo, woo woo, vroom!!!” Slow tickover until it finally gone caught and started. I also had an instance where I stopped at a traffic light, and the idle dropped to about 500 rpms for about 10 secs before it finally came back up. I finally decided to just replace the battery when the bike barely started after the third of several errands I had run during my work lunch break.

I went with an FTZ-14S from motorcyclebatteries.com, which is the same size as the stock battery, but has a few more cold cranking amps. The first time I hit the starter button after installing it the engine fired up with a “woo woo, vroom!!!”, so I know my slow starting was due to the battery. Maybe my stock battery is somehow defective and just doesn’t hold a charge correctly...?

The next morning when I rode to work I didn’t even think about the new battery, until I noticed the engine seemed to be running a lot smoother. During my 40 minute commute I didn’t notice any running surging whatsoever, although I really didn’t believe the battery could have been the source of the problem. So, for the next week I decided to really focus on how the bike ran in really hot temperatures. Well, I installed the new battery a little over two weeks ago, and in my particular case I think that was the problem. We’ve had some pretty hot temps here in SoCal for a while now, and there have been only a few times where I’ve noticed only a very slight surge or a slight on/off throttle dead spot. But it’s nothing compared to how it ran before…it’s a night and day difference. In fact, I am amazed at how smooth it runs now. I can run in 1st gear at 5-6K, at engine temps well over 200F, and it doesn’t surge at all. Nada...

A few days after installing the battery I decided I had better also do the monitor wire fix, as although my voltage below the high level per the service manual at about 15.1 – 15.2 volts, I was worried that maybe the battery had gotten overcharged and that is what made it fail so quickly. After the wiring fix my voltage is now steady at 14.2 – 14.3 volts. I really don’t think the running voltage was the problem, as the engine definitely ran better after the new battery was installed, but the same after the monitor wire fix.

So…I think my hot surging issue was electrically related, but I’m not sure how. The only thing I can figure is that the overall electrical system would become degraded after the bike fully warmed up, and somehow the battery was part of the equation, although I don't see how the battery could change characteristics depending on engine temperature. Anyway, my advice is that if you experience a similar problem, do yourself a favor and perform all of the wiring fixes/upgrades, but first have the battery checked as a potential source.

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  • 1 month later...

I have an 02 vfr all stock and at the last track day I noticed a surge or hesitation while in 2nd gear between 9500 -10000 rpm. Last weekend on the street in the twisties I noticed the same problem at exactly the same rpm's and while in 2nd gear. Shift to third and it goes away. The temp will go up to around 218 at times as well. Otherwise the bike run great. Obvious concern while leaned over in the corners. Does this sound like a sensor problem? I want to give the dealer as much info as I can to help solve the problem. A mechanic I am not. Thanks for any help you can give. CIRV

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Update to my surging issue!!!!

After reading another post though, I switched my stacks to this configuration which seems to be how the manual depicts them and how they are installed at the factory.

Left Front: Short

Right Front: Tall

Left Rear: Tall

Right Rear: Short

Here is the thread: http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.p...c=30771&hl=

I don’t know why this makes a difference, but it does seem to affect how the bike runs. So if you’re running the stacks as front/short and rear/tall, and are experiencing low speed high rpm surging, then I suggest trying the stacks in this configuration. It worked for me…

I believe that as the potential source of your problem, good for you finding it!

I've seen the "shorts in front talls in rear" recommendation before, but none of the half dozen factory Vtecs I've looked at had this config from the factory and I know Honda spent a lot of time setting up our air boxes! :thumbsup:

MY o6 vfrabs has both short ones in the front and both tall ones in the rear , they had never been touched from the factory

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Okay I just cjanged the spark plugs and airfilter in my 2006 model. didnt even pull a fairing or raise the rear of the tank. The front plugs are subseptible to dirt so blow out well with compressed air, the rear plugs are kept much cleaner. all my plugs removed looked like some slight wear but the gaps were still in spec at 27,000+ mile. I think 35,000 is an easy, course my bike has been subjected to leaded race fuel which tend to clean everything pretty.

But the spark plug wells are like 2 feet Deep, okay not really, more like 7 inches deep, a magnet is a requirement, I couldnt believe how deep they wer though. disconnecting the direct coil connectors took alot of thought. They have a squeese release mechanism, pul too hard to pull apart. I used a large flat blade on the seam where the male female join , and slightly twist whle squeezing the release.

But the Velocity stacks, assuming all the airboxes are the same, its quite simple, the airbox bottom in the rear is much lower than in the front, the tall stacks go there where the bottom is deeper, in the front has a raise bottom so shorts go there. BY stalling this way all the tops of the stacks are the same height for smoth air flow across them, if you put the tall ones on the higher bottom and any low ones on the deeper bottom.

'

your just going to create alot of turbulance, and wont get smooth air flow.

my airfilter barely could get light through it

Edited by spud786
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I'm tempted to crack open my airbox to look at the stacks.

The velocity stacks are designed to give each runner the same length. All modern engines are this way, same for intake manifolds and exhaust headers. Thats why we have spaghetti exhaust plumbing.

Edit,

It is very good advice about the battery and very intriging. I see honda autos that start a little slow but still start. The abs or srs light will be on with many control unit failure codes. A weak battery is the source of the problem 9 times out of 10.

Edited by soichiro
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I'm tempted to crack open my airbox to look at the stacks.

The velocity stacks are designed to give each runner the same length. All modern engines are this way, same for intake manifolds and exhaust headers. Thats why we have spaghetti exhaust plumbing.

Edit,

It is very good advice about the battery and very intriging. I see honda autos that start a little slow but still start. The abs or srs light will be on with many control unit failure codes. A weak battery is the source of the problem 9 times out of 10.

I had my airbox lid off today and my bike has the tall's in the rear short's in the front.

K&N with 28k miles and an opened up airbix lid and the filter wasnt even dirty.

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I'm tempted to crack open my airbox to look at the stacks.

The velocity stacks are designed to give each runner the same length. All modern engines are this way, same for intake manifolds and exhaust headers. Thats why we have spaghetti exhaust plumbing.

Edit,

It is very good advice about the battery and very intriging. I see honda autos that start a little slow but still start. The abs or srs light will be on with many control unit failure codes. A weak battery is the source of the problem 9 times out of 10.

I had my airbox lid off today and my bike has the tall's in the rear short's in the front.

K&N with 28k miles and an opened up airbix lid and the filter wasnt even dirty.

28,000 and not dirty, does that kind make ya wonder about the filtering?

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  • 4 weeks later...
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I have an 02 vfr all stock and at the last track day I noticed a surge or hesitation while in 2nd gear between 9500 -10000 rpm. Last weekend on the street in the twisties I noticed the same problem at exactly the same rpm's and while in 2nd gear. Shift to third and it goes away.

I've had that problem on my '02 once or twice too: 2nd gear - Wide Open Throttle and high revs. The engine appeared to cut out for a heartbeat and then come back. This was way back in 2002, and it's never done it since.

My bike does the same thing, really bad when its hot and im in traffic thats moving slow, 10-40mph and in 1, 2, 3gears my bike has always did this and is stock. i just removed the 02sensors and it ran great for a few days, then today in town it was acting up really bad, makes me nerves to ride it. It will also do this at highway speeds, feels like its slowing down so you give it more throttle but nothing happens then a little more and all the sudden it jumps forward.

This is the exact behaviour my '02 exhibits. You give it a little and there is nothing, you give it some more and then suddenly the power appears in an instant.

Somebody mentioned stuck fast wax idle units. I so wish I had a wideband O2 sensor in my pocket all the time so I could just stick the fecker down the exhaust pipe and see if it's running lean, or rich!

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  • 6 months later...
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Just to add my input for the heck of it, my '02 has had the hesitation almost all along...although I really started noting it last summer (coincidentally after reading about it here). I always notice it around town, between 4-5k rpm under very slight throttle. Some days its worse than others, but one thing I did notice is that in the mountains and higher altitudes is where itd seem to be noticably worse. I now have 36k miles on it and everything is totally stock besides the BMC air filter which i just changed from the former KN I had in there. I havent messed with the flapper, PAIR, or any other emissions equipment at all. Stock exhaust as well. I did adjust my starter valves two summers ago just for the heck of it because it was mentioned on here so much at the time. My velocity stacks are short/tall in front and tall/short on the rear head. Ive double checked this a couple times, since thats how the Honda service manual illustrates they should be.

And to answer someones question earlier, I did recently have the wiring recall done, and no apparent change in the surging issue afterwards. Ive just gotten used to the fact that this is characteristic of the bike and is probably due to its super lean setup from the factory.

Like many agree, the FI setup on these bikes is super lean....a little too lean I believe, so much so that it borders on poor drivability issues. I just figure this surging is just another result of this.

Oh, and ive also changed my wax unit over this past winter just because ive heard of numerous issues with it on others bikes, and i had it torn apart anyways in that area. This also did not help or effect the surging....its still there just like it was before.

Edited by Adam30
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Adam30 said ((My velocity stacks are short/tall in front and tall/short on the rear head. Ive double checked this a couple times, since thats how the Honda service manual illustrates they should be.))...

Are you sure about that? Mine are short in front and tall in the rear. If you look at the 2002 VTEC service manual, it's not clear about this. It shows 4 stacks and some are rotated which may make them appear taller/shorter but it's not clear where they go. However, if you look at the VFRD Parts List and navigate to the Air Cleaner, it shows 2 part numbers and they are the one part number in the front and the other part number in the rear. I'd say that clearly indicates that they're supposed to be short in front and tall in the rear.

Maybe this is the source of your trouble?

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Hey, just got your post from the other thread to look at this one, lol.

Ive presented this issue on a couple of different threads and was starting to lose track on where i was, lol.

But anyways, that is interesting....and i know it's been kind of a debate here before. THe way i saw the illustration in the service manual was LF and RR were to be short. It is "fairly" clear in my manual, but not perectly clear. The one thing i have noticed the past couple times of disassembly was that the little index marks they put on the stacks dont always seem to line up with the corresponding marks on the airbox.

But, just looked at the VFRD Parts list, which ive never done before....and you're correct, its showing both #6's up front and two #7's in the back.

Im going to go back and look....I swear there were guys saying that their bikes were LF-short RR-Tall and that they havent been touched from the factory. But i guess ive heard it both ways now that i think of it.....

Hmmmm.......

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Im going to go back and look....I swear there were guys saying that their bikes were LF-short RR-Tall and that they havent been touched from the factory. But i guess ive heard it both ways now that i think of it.....

Hmmmm.......

That would be me for one, I opened no less then 6 virgin 6th gens and every one was like mine and had the LF- short RF-tall set-up like the manual shows.

A parts micro fish shouldn't be used to correctly assemble anything IMO, even if it happen to be correct! :wheel:

There was at least one other member who was having new surge issues after some repair work he did, saying the bike just would not run right. He had the short front set-up and change it to the short/tall front and said it cured all his issues. :happy:

I've had this set-up for 60k miles w/o a single surge issue. +1.gif

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Sorry....I did mean LF and RR short. That's what the service manual seems to indicate as well, but it is a bit vague

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Guest Druydd

My 04 and my buddies 06 both have a mixed config (short /tall front and back). When we did the TBCFPR mod I didn't pay attention and put mine back short-front tall-back and it ran like crap. Switched them back and all was pretty good only a little surging. I did call TBC and told them I still had a little surge, they had me try an FPR that had 2lbs more pressure then the first one they sent me. That pretty much fixed everything; although it did increase the puch on the vtec transition a bit.

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  • 1 month later...
Guest burt4692

Enzed has it right. It's a lean condition....all you have to do is find it. I think I would try the stock exhaust first & see what happens.

Edited by burt4692
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To follow up with this thread incase some of you didnt see my post in my other thread from last week, the official word from Honda is that the velocity stacks are to be both short in front and both tall in the rear.

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  • 8 months later...

Ressurecting this thread so as not to open another...

Having the typical surging or dead-spots at 3500 and 4500 RPM... I can live with those, almost, but what IS worrying me is the VTEC transition. It seems to be confused somewhat, and the take-up / back-off point seems to cover a wider range of RPM... from 6800 to 7500 almost, and when in this range, pushing the bike hard, and holding a steady throttle, it will surge, and at times and given how hard I like to push the bike, it is more than annoying at times... it seems to do it at any RPM in VTEC mode at steady throttle once the bike is hot... fix over these last few weeks that it's been misbehaving is engine off and start her up again before the FI finishes its start-up check/routine... doesn't completely eliminate it but almost...

Drives me batty to say the least...

2003, K&N, apart from that, it´s stock... last tech inspection for road worthy certificate showed the bike emitting CO way above spec, changed to K&N shortly aftewards... I would say the surgin has gotten worse since the weather has got hotter and since the K&N...

The only other time I experienced surging it was way worse and due to a faulty stator = flat battery... but the RPM needle would jump up and down radically and the bike wouldn't start... new stator should have fixed that... but I mention it as low charge can produce poltergeists in the FI system.

I'm wondering if new plugs and battery (this may have suffered from the stator failure) would help but I think it's something else... maybe the K&N... there are so many factors to consider...


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OK so I lifted the fuel tank to see whether anything jumped out at me and I noticed the rubber hoseline which goes to the copper coloured vacuum thingy which I believe operates the flap was not connected. Could this be part of the reason behind the sudden appearance of these surging symptoms?? I can't be 100% sure whether I left it disconnected after installing the K&N filter or whether it sprung off on lifting the tank this afternoon. If this being disconnected can cause my symptoms, then it's clear I somehow didn't connect it up properly (I'm sure I recall connecting it) when installing the K&N, as I believe I have been noticing the symptoms since then...

I guess I will find out after this upcoming weekend's trip up to Valencia and across to Madrid and back... will report back...


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