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Surging Surging Surging!


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Best of luck Auspanol, we both seem to have our fair share of bike issues... I'm on the ragged edge at the moment about to pull the plug and swap for a 5th gen... I'm holding out at the minute though!

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Ressurecting this thread so as not to open another... Having the typical surging or dead-spots at 3500 and 4500 RPM... I can live with those, almost, but what IS worrying me is the VTEC transition. I

Sorry mate, but the PGM-FI control unit on the VFR just isn't that smart. Only vehicles with the newer OBD-II (Onboard Vehicle Diagnostics) can guarantee such levels of diagnostic capability. Even t

TPS is circled in red

What is it this time Steve??

Well. 5 or 600 km today and the f%$#er still surges when maintaining steady throttle in the VTEC RPM range... not as badly perhaps, but I guess I just avoided living in the VTEC RPM range and when up there tried to not hold the throttle steady too often... so it's all relative.

It just jerks around like a bucking bull and at full lean and 10,000 revs this is not cool...

I wonder if the Cat and other things get clogged over time and stoich-o-matic mode or whatever it's called becomes fauled somehow... what I don't want is to now go down the de-flap, de-O2, de-this, de-that road to later find that it still surges...

BTW; velocity stacks: short up front tall up back... never been touched.

Edited by Auspañol
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Have you considered that it might be the clutch? You really have to watch the clutch on VFR's. :blink:

HAHAHAHAHA, yep you do :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Funny stuff Pete :biggrin:

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If you as me, the VTEC engagement spot is a tough area to try and hold a steady rpm, and I would think a little surging would almost be normal as the engine transitions from 2 to 4 valve operation. I don't know if you're running a Power Commander, but I have a PCI USB and with Cozye's map, the VTEC engagement is a lot less abrupt and manageable. I still get a little surging though, so I try to either be above or below the VTEC sweet spot.

Having said that, aside from the VTEC surge, I think most of my surging problems have been caused by other electrical issues. If you read my posts, you'll see that I noticed a big improvement when I replaced the battery, and just recently I noticed that my low speed mid rpm problems seemed to be coming back again. I thought a new battery was in my future...

Just last week though, my Starter Relay fried and the connector mating to it was melted, but after I replaced both I noticed another improvement in how the bike ran.

Anyway, if the VTEC area is the only place where you have surging problem I suggest a Power Commander and Coyze's map. If you have surging in other areas, I'd start looking at electrical improvements such as Tightwad's VFRness.

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Have you considered that it might be the clutch? You really have to watch the clutch on VFR's. :blink:

HAHAHAHAHA, yep you do :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Funny stuff Pete :biggrin:

Do tell...???

If you as me, the VTEC engagement spot is a tough area to try and hold a steady rpm, and I would think a little surging would almost be normal as the engine transitions from 2 to 4 valve operation. I don't know if you're running a Power Commander, but I have a PCI USB and with Cozye's map, the VTEC engagement is a lot less abrupt and manageable. I still get a little surging though, so I try to either be above or below the VTEC sweet spot.

Having said that, aside from the VTEC surge, I think most of my surging problems have been caused by other electrical issues. If you read my posts, you'll see that I noticed a big improvement when I replaced the battery, and just recently I noticed that my low speed mid rpm problems seemed to be coming back again. I thought a new battery was in my future...

Just last week though, my Starter Relay fried and the connector mating to it was melted, but after I replaced both I noticed another improvement in how the bike ran.

Anyway, if the VTEC area is the only place where you have surging problem I suggest a Power Commander and Coyze's map. If you have surging in other areas, I'd start looking at electrical improvements such as Tightwad's VFRness.

Have the VFRness, done the blue connector fix (also thanks to Tightwad). New stator. Many connectors and such cleaned up with dielectric spray.

Have run a series of checks with multimeter. Solid readings. Even let the bike heat up, and on the centre stand in neutral, checked the readings up in the VTEC RPM range... solid as a rock.

I do notice a slight flat spot at 3500 and 4500 RPM. Typical on this model, but these don't bother me so much. What bothers me is the much stronger surging above 6800 RPM, not just in the transition range, but at 8500 or 9000 or wherever in the VTEC range if holding steady throttle or making minor imputs to throttle...

I am aware and do agree that the electrical system can be responsible, in reference to bad charging system... when my stator fried the surging was tremendous... way moreso than what I'm noticing now, and this, coupled with the solid multimeter readings, makes me rule out the typical stator, R/R and battery area...

Edited by Auspañol
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Damn... all these electrical and surging issues, you never hear about this sort of thing from the 5th gen bikes... do you?

You can have a bad time of it electrically with the 5th gen... especially the 98-99 years. But it tends just to be the R/R... easy diagnosis and fix. Only seen one 98er among those over here in the Spanish VFR Club, fry its stator.

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Have the VFRness, done the blue connector fix (also thanks to Tightwad). New stator. Many connectors and such cleaned up with dielectric spray.

Have run a series of checks with multimeter. Solid readings. Even let the bike heat up, and on the centre stand in neutral, checked the readings up in the VTEC RPM range... solid as a rock.

I do notice a slight flat spot at 3500 and 4500 RPM. Typical on this model, but these don't bother me so much. What bothers me is the much stronger surging above 6800 RPM, not just in the transition range, but at 8500 or 9000 or wherever in the VTEC range if holding steady throttle or making minor imputs to throttle...

I am aware and do agree that the electrical system can be responsible, in reference to bad charging system... when my stator fried the surging was tremendous... way moreso than what I'm noticing now, and this, coupled with the solid multimeter readings, makes me rule out the typical stator, R/R and battery area...

When it comes to the electrical system affecting how the bike runs, I think the VFRness pretty much takes care of the voltage and current capacity/load problems on the 6th Gen bikes. The only other thing is to try a PCIII, as it really helps with the VTEC transition on my bike. Too bad we're on opposite sides of the planet or else I'd let you try my PCIII to see if it makes a difference.

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Have the VFRness, done the blue connector fix (also thanks to Tightwad). New stator. Many connectors and such cleaned up with dielectric spray.

Have run a series of checks with multimeter. Solid readings. Even let the bike heat up, and on the centre stand in neutral, checked the readings up in the VTEC RPM range... solid as a rock.

I do notice a slight flat spot at 3500 and 4500 RPM. Typical on this model, but these don't bother me so much. What bothers me is the much stronger surging above 6800 RPM, not just in the transition range, but at 8500 or 9000 or wherever in the VTEC range if holding steady throttle or making minor imputs to throttle...

I am aware and do agree that the electrical system can be responsible, in reference to bad charging system... when my stator fried the surging was tremendous... way moreso than what I'm noticing now, and this, coupled with the solid multimeter readings, makes me rule out the typical stator, R/R and battery area...

When it comes to the electrical system affecting how the bike runs, I think the VFRness pretty much takes care of the voltage and current capacity/load problems on the 6th Gen bikes. The only other thing is to try a PCIII, as it really helps with the VTEC transition on my bike. Too bad we're on opposite sides of the planet or else I'd let you try my PCIII to see if it makes a difference.

Thanks mate!! It's people like your good self that make this site what it is!!

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Dandizzle

does anyone know if any of the the '07-'08 viffers (sorry: interceptors) have all these electrical and running problems? i want a good bike thats comfortable and has hoot-producing potential, but that wont leave me stranded, or wishing i had a cowboy hat and chaps. i know, i know, im probably the only motorcyclist in the world that wants that, but everybody's different right?

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  • 3 months later...
Guest twowheeltuner

I just started having this surging problem last month on my 2002 model with 51,000 miles. The bike has staintune pipes, K&N, and a DFO installed. I synchronized the starter valves but still the same problem. I also just completed the wiring recall also no change. Surging was at a wide range of RPM's as well as engine operating temperatures. I also had to change the thermostat due to it sticking wide open which made the problem even worse at low temps in the mornings, still no change and I double checked all the vacuum hose connections when removing the throttel body to reach the thermostat. Yah, nice job Honda, maybe next time we can find somewhere better to put the thermostat. I finally double checked my DFO to make sure that it was working and none of the initial setpoints had been changed and everything appeared normal. Following this I adjusted my DFO to add more fuel at the low and mid RPM range and this appears to have solved the surging. I don't know why that has changed but the surging has gone away for now. The surging was to the point where it was dangerous to ride the bike. When will we see a recall from Honda? I completely understand that the bike runs lean without a DFO or Power Commander but the bike still should not surge. I think that I have masked the problem for now but really feel that there is an electrical issue behind this.

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  • 11 months later...

Gday Gents (and ladies),

I have an 05 that i bought with 6000km on it. This thing has surges since i had it. Also comes with a nice burning rubber smell when stopped at the lights after its warm.

My surging begins at 80c and anytime after that. It manifests as power coming on and off during steady throttle application on the freeway, almost feels like being buffetted by headwinds.

Other symptoms are when i trafffic and accelerating through the rev range the engine hesitates usually around 4500-5000 rpm. Can be very definite and can also be very subtle.

After reading all posts from various discussions i have drawn a conclusion: This problem can probably be solved quite easily by one solution! Take it to a Tech who you can trust, they will plug in the computer and the bloody bike will probably tell them what the problem is!! I have not done this yet but after receiving a reccomendation finally for a good technician in my area, i am going to give this a crack and will post my results here when the process is complete! I just figure that there are so many people with this issue on these forums but when i talk to a number of workshops, no one has heard of the problem so i figure that all of us here on the forums that are speculating are doing exactly that when there are ways to get the fix (which is likely to be electrical and therefore diagnoseable with a laptop or honda diagnosis program) very easily.

I used to work for Audi, BMW, Porsche and let me tell you, theFIRST thing they all do when a car comes in with a problem like this is open the passenger door, plug in the laptop and let the computer in the car tell them what is wrong. They walk straight to parts, order the sensor/actuator whatever and then replace it. They test drive the car, fixed. The dealership empties your wallet and you drive away without the problem. Im guessing it will be the same on the Viffers due to all the electronic wizardry and i will be very happy if i find out its a 50 buck sensor.

Saves changing throttle stacks, turning the ignition off and on, synching starter valves and doing whatever else to the standard running of the bike that could be removing all that was good about the bike to start with!!

Anyway, not having a go at anyone by saying all that, just saying that it makes sense to me to take it to a tech. Its taken me a bit to drum up the courage to take it to someone again after the first mob butchered my baby but im sure that if they find the problem, it will be worth it in the end!!

Will keep you all posted!!

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Guest checksi6

Let us know how that goes. Good luck.

Gday Gents (and ladies),

I have an 05 that i bought with 6000km on it. This thing has surges since i had it. Also comes with a nice burning rubber smell when stopped at the lights after its warm.

My surging begins at 80c and anytime after that. It manifests as power coming on and off during steady throttle application on the freeway, almost feels like being buffetted by headwinds.

Other symptoms are when i trafffic and accelerating through the rev range the engine hesitates usually around 4500-5000 rpm. Can be very definite and can also be very subtle.

After reading all posts from various discussions i have drawn a conclusion: This problem can probably be solved quite easily by one solution! Take it to a Tech who you can trust, they will plug in the computer and the bloody bike will probably tell them what the problem is!! I have not done this yet but after receiving a reccomendation finally for a good technician in my area, i am going to give this a crack and will post my results here when the process is complete! I just figure that there are so many people with this issue on these forums but when i talk to a number of workshops, no one has heard of the problem so i figure that all of us here on the forums that are speculating are doing exactly that when there are ways to get the fix (which is likely to be electrical and therefore diagnoseable with a laptop or honda diagnosis program) very easily.

I used to work for Audi, BMW, Porsche and let me tell you, theFIRST thing they all do when a car comes in with a problem like this is open the passenger door, plug in the laptop and let the computer in the car tell them what is wrong. They walk straight to parts, order the sensor/actuator whatever and then replace it. They test drive the car, fixed. The dealership empties your wallet and you drive away without the problem. Im guessing it will be the same on the Viffers due to all the electronic wizardry and i will be very happy if i find out its a 50 buck sensor.

Saves changing throttle stacks, turning the ignition off and on, synching starter valves and doing whatever else to the standard running of the bike that could be removing all that was good about the bike to start with!!

Anyway, not having a go at anyone by saying all that, just saying that it makes sense to me to take it to a tech. Its taken me a bit to drum up the courage to take it to someone again after the first mob butchered my baby but im sure that if they find the problem, it will be worth it in the end!!

Will keep you all posted!!

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does anyone know if any of the the '07-'08 viffers (sorry: interceptors) have all these electrical and running problems? i want a good bike thats comfortable and has hoot-producing potential, but that wont leave me stranded, or wishing i had a cowboy hat and chaps. i know, i know, im probably the only motorcyclist in the world that wants that, but everybody's different right?

06 through 2010 have had zero recalls, and everything has been getting retrofitted to this level.

I have 76,000 mile on my 06 (no valve check), and the first real part failure was a stator at 56,000 mile. Theres no bike your going to buy with better longevity IMO, I rely on my bike to be trouble free. NOw as with any other bike, its all in your early prepping that bears fruit down the road

you should only be so lucky with any other bike

But if you put a set of heli bars and a good seat, VFR is a luxury liner

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Ok All,

The shop has just called.

No problem found. Plugs changed, fuel drained and then test ridden. Problem appears to be gone they say.

My previous words (fantasy) about them plugging in a laptop and being told what the problem is appears to have been a pipe dream on my behalf. I am prepared to eat all of my own words and take any ribbing from those willing to give it :)

I'll have to put some k's on the thing and see if i agree with their outcome!!

Was liberated of $285 for the privilledge too!!

Al.

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EPA settings has 1/4 throttle lean, it shows up as a mild surge in some rpm areas, we are talking mild surge not bucking or anything. Take all the slack out of your throttle cable, that will aide cause of the wrist position will change.

If running any modifications , like airfilter or exhaust, expect more issues, without a properly set up PCommander. The bike is too lean stock below half throttle to absorb any modifications that would lean it out further.

Keep in mind US fuel map is changing and not to our benefit, this will also create issue.

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EPA settings has 1/4 throttle lean, it shows up as a mild surge in some rpm areas, we are talking mild surge not bucking or anything. Take all the slack out of your throttle cable, that will aide cause of the wrist position will change.

If running any modifications , like airfilter or exhaust, expect more issues, without a properly set up PCommander. The bike is too lean stock below half throttle to absorb any modifications that would lean it out further.

Keep in mind US fuel map is changing and not to our benefit, this will also create issue.

Thanks Spud,

She's Stock as a rock. WIll have a look at the throttle cable. Sometimes it can buck about but thats usually in traffic and when its hot. On the freeway its uslually a lack of power being applied when applying throttle.

Prick of a problem. Considering my options should this not be sorted when i get it back.

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Just make sure the throttle valve fully closes lock to lock on the bars( so rpm doesnt raise with turning the bars) . but somwhere between zero and 2mm play. Stock , they normally come with about 5mm or more of play. it will aide in the first 1/4 throttle use, you might also find acheiving full throttle easier.

But even new and perfect condition there are spots in the rpm range that will generate some mild surge, if in that 1/4 throttle range.

Also possible your fuel injectors ar alittle clogged, might try some fi cleaner, strong enough a metal can is needed.

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Guest 05VFRNewfie

Alsd,

I have the same problem on my 05, PITA :fing02: The surge/ hesitation @ 5000 rpm's is annoying as hell! :biggrin:

I just added some FI cleaner the week, hoping this will sort it out. Will also post back with any results. lol :comp13:

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My previous words (fantasy) about them plugging in a laptop and being told what the problem is appears to have been a pipe dream on my behalf. I am prepared to eat all of my own words and take any ribbing from those willing to give it :)

Sorry mate, but the PGM-FI control unit on the VFR just isn't that smart. Only vehicles with the newer OBD-II (Onboard Vehicle Diagnostics) can guarantee such levels of diagnostic capability. Even then, if the problem is not considered an error it won't show up.

Having said that, a modern car ECU such as the Blackwood unit used on most Fords has very strong diagnostic capability, mainly due to the O2 sensor. They know what an engine which has no problems should show with regards to the O2 readings and such. In addition, nearly all car ECU systems use a mass air flow sensor for measuring air and therefore appropriate fuelling. Nearly all bikes - with possibly the exception of Ducati - use Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensors and are essentially an open-loop system (that is, they can't learn or adjust to circumstances outside of their preprogrammed maps).

A car with a mass airflow sensor can be practically blueprinted or fitted with hot cams without a re-tune, because these systems measure the airflow and apply the right amount of fuel in accordance, and then take readings from the O2 sensor to make sure they're getting it right.

To put it mildly, the VFR O2 sensors are next to useless. They only monitor fuel mixture at a very small window of operation (cruising rpms, less than 25% throttle) and as far as I know, they forget the data as soon as you turn the bike off. It's just not a true closed-loop system, unlike a modern car. The best way to make a 6th-generation VFR run well is to bung on some O2 sensor eliminators, a Powercommander (III or V - either will work), and a custom tune. I just had mine tuned and I told them I didn't give a toss about power, I just wanted smooth throttle response at cruise. And that's what they focused on - the results are pretty darned good too.

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Hey Guys,

Well have done 200ks on her since the service and i have to say that its a MASSIVE improvement. The flat spot at 2000-3000 rpm is gone, the hesitations at around 4000-5000 have pretty much gone but there is a hint of it stil. Overall though, the improvement is awesome. I am back in love with her and i now feel that i can see why there is so much love for this machine. Was about to bin the thing a while ago!!

Kal, The power commander and sensors etc, was thisa a recent development? I know you have been struggling for a while and im curious as to how recent the work was?

Thanks for all the replies gents!!

Al.

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  • 2 months later...
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Has anybody with an ABS model every hook up an electrical reader to the ABS to see what kind of power it pulls when in use/not in use?

Edited by Ranger77
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  • 9 months later...
Have the VFRness, done the blue connector fix (also thanks to Tightwad). New stator. Many connectors and such cleaned up with dielectric spray.

Have run a series of checks with multimeter. Solid readings. Even let the bike heat up, and on the centre stand in neutral, checked the readings up in the VTEC RPM range... solid as a rock.

I do notice a slight flat spot at 3500 and 4500 RPM. Typical on this model, but these don't bother me so much. What bothers me is the much stronger surging above 6800 RPM, not just in the transition range, but at 8500 or 9000 or wherever in the VTEC range if holding steady throttle or making minor imputs to throttle...

I am aware and do agree that the electrical system can be responsible, in reference to bad charging system... when my stator fried the surging was tremendous... way moreso than what I'm noticing now, and this, coupled with the solid multimeter readings, makes me rule out the typical stator, R/R and battery area...

When it comes to the electrical system affecting how the bike runs, I think the VFRness pretty much takes care of the voltage and current capacity/load problems on the 6th Gen bikes. The only other thing is to try a PCIII, as it really helps with the VTEC transition on my bike. Too bad we're on opposite sides of the planet or else I'd let you try my PCIII to see if it makes a difference.

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  • 1 year later...
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I've been meaning to post my recent findings...

If you've read thru the entire thread where I discussed some of the mods I have done to my bike, as well as some of the things I did that had an affect as I tried to eliminate the hot running surging, one of the first things that stood out as a partial fix were the velocity stacks.

The arrangement of the velocity stacks in this configuration, Left Front: Short, Right Front: Tall, Left Rear: Tall, and Right Rear: Short, made a definite difference. I commute to work on my VFR every day, so I believe I ride it enough to be able to tell when something makes it run better or worse. The velocity stacks in the above arrangement seemed to help but didnt totally eliminate the hot surging.

I had already done most of the electrical mods, such as the 30-amp fuse fix, left-side blue connector ground wire, and so on, but since my bike is fairly new and the wiring seems to be okay so far, I thought of these mods/upgrades as preventive measures since none of them affected the surging. What I didnt realize is that my particular surging problem was related to the electrical system.

About 3-4 months ago I noticed that my barely 2-year-old battery was starting to act up. In the summer mornings it seemed as though the engine was becoming harder to start, and when I hit the starter button it took several revolutions until the engine started. Work with me on the sound effects here, but it was like woo woo, woo woo, woo woo, woo woo, vroom!!! Slow tickover until it finally gone caught and started. I also had an instance where I stopped at a traffic light, and the idle dropped to about 500 rpms for about 10 secs before it finally came back up. I finally decided to just replace the battery when the bike barely started after the third of several errands I had run during my work lunch break.

I went with an FTZ-14S from motorcyclebatteries.com, which is the same size as the stock battery, but has a few more cold cranking amps. The first time I hit the starter button after installing it the engine fired up with a woo woo, vroom!!!, so I know my slow starting was due to the battery. Maybe my stock battery is somehow defective and just doesnt hold a charge correctly...?

The next morning when I rode to work I didnt even think about the new battery, until I noticed the engine seemed to be running a lot smoother. During my 40 minute commute I didnt notice any running surging whatsoever, although I really didnt believe the battery could have been the source of the problem. So, for the next week I decided to really focus on how the bike ran in really hot temperatures. Well, I installed the new battery a little over two weeks ago, and in my particular case I think that was the problem. Weve had some pretty hot temps here in SoCal for a while now, and there have been only a few times where Ive noticed only a very slight surge or a slight on/off throttle dead spot. But its nothing compared to how it ran beforeits a night and day difference. In fact, I am amazed at how smooth it runs now. I can run in 1st gear at 5-6K, at engine temps well over 200F, and it doesnt surge at all. Nada...

A few days after installing the battery I decided I had better also do the monitor wire fix, as although my voltage below the high level per the service manual at about 15.1 15.2 volts, I was worried that maybe the battery had gotten overcharged and that is what made it fail so quickly. After the wiring fix my voltage is now steady at 14.2 14.3 volts. I really dont think the running voltage was the problem, as the engine definitely ran better after the new battery was installed, but the same after the monitor wire fix.

SoI think my hot surging issue was electrically related, but Im not sure how. The only thing I can figure is that the overall electrical system would become degraded after the bike fully warmed up, and somehow the battery was part of the equation, although I don't see how the battery could change characteristics depending on engine temperature. Anyway, my advice is that if you experience a similar problem, do yourself a favor and perform all of the wiring fixes/upgrades, but first have the battery checked as a potential source.

Well I realise this post is quite old but I did come accross this quote in the service maual; "The volume of fuel injected is compensated when the feeding voltage of the battery is low." It was in the technical features section regarding the ECM. Whether that would be only at start or all the time i can't say, but it would appear that replacing the battery did help and this may have been part of the reason why. Before anyone goes there, yes when running the R/R should have a fairly stable voltage but electrons being what they are, you never know.

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