Guest goldVFR Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I think the single sided swing arm is one of the coolest motorcyle innovations. Does anyone know its history, where it came from etc? Also is there any performance related advantages, or is it just made to look cool? Other than Honda, Ducati and Triumph, does anyone else single sided swingarms? border='0' alt='user posted image' /> DSCF0011.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer dutchinterceptor Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 Italian beauty.......MV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tbzep Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 It's big advantage is quickness and ease of removing and replacing the rear wheel. I've forgotten in my old age, but I believe ELF developed the SSSA (that's why ELF is on the swingarm of our VFR's). Not counting their development bike, it probably first appeared on a Honda V-Four endurance racer at the Eight Hours of Suzuka endurance race back in the late 80's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m-crew Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 I think the first production honda that appeared with it was the Honda Hawk in the late 80s.600cc v twin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer dutchinterceptor Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 Google turned up this site. Fairly interesting info. http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible_bikes.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Brakes_and_Blip Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 By Tim Carrithers Not so much a race-replica as a TT-F1 racer you could hang a license plate on, Honda?s RC30 had come and gone before most of us realized what we?d missed. As the 1980s gave way to the ?90s, V-four engines replaced the inline layout as Honda?s corporate performance signature. Developed to show the world what Honda could do if cost was no object, the RC30 was originally offered in Europe in ?88. By the time Honda brought it to America in ?90, the bike had won two World Superbike titles under expatriate American Fred Merkel. Distinguished by RC30 decals rather than the VFR750R designation used elsewhere, U.S.-spec RC30s came with all the requisite emissions plumbing. Hand-built by special teams of workers in Honda?s HRC works in Hamamatsu, the bike was tiny, powered by an exquisite 748cc Vee. Honda claimed 118 horsepower at 11,000 rpm for the 488-pound (wet) package. That?s porky by modern standards. But 15 years ago it was 24 pounds lighter than a ZX-7 and 9 pounds lighter than Suzuki?s GSX-R750. At that point the Honda stood out like a Rolex in a sea of Timexes, and it was easily the trickest production bike we?d ever seen. It featured titanium connecting rods spinning a 360-degree crankshaft, a single-sided swingarm lifted from the Elf Honda endurance racer and loads of nifty touches such as quick-release fasteners for the front axle and bodywork. Buffering a 24-degree rake with just 91mm of trail and measuring 55.5 inches between contact patches, handling is predictably quick but surprisingly forgiving. A preposterously tall first-gear?more suited to the Bol d?Or than American pavement?explained a disappointing 11.8-second best at the dragstrip, but the bike was stunning everywhere else. Good for 153 mph tapped out in sixth gear, Honda?s sporting flagship ran a single mph ahead of Kawasaki?s speedy ZX-7. The real RC magic is subjective. Aimed down any twisty road or racetrack, it raised the proverbial bar with performance that was out of reach for Suzuki?s blue-collar GSX-R or Kawasaki?s ZX-7. So was the $14,998 sticker price?a tall stack of cash way back when The Simpsons started showing up on Sunday nights. And aside from being a twinge down on power, a well-preserved RC30 can still upstage various allegedly modern sportbikes. Internal engine tolerances were exceedingly tight. Spinning the V-four hard before it was warm could seize it. Merciless high-rpm running can stretch the valves, wreaking subsequent havoc downstream. Fed by four 38mm Keihin carbs, RC30 engines run hot despite dual radiators. The temp gauge rarely dips under 200 degrees F. The front brake rotors are prone to warp as well. As with any hand-built bike, cosmetic imperfections are common. The trailing edges of original fairing panels have a distinct, rounded lip. Aftermarket replacements will drive the price down. Price? Knowledgeable SoCal collectors say a typical example?clean, ridden occasionally with 15?20,000 miles?usually goes for between $12,000 and $15,000. A perfect RC30 with zero miles can sell for more than $25,000. But for devotees of the breed lucky enough to find an RC30 that hasn?t been converted into a racer, crashed or both, price is less important than owning 488 pounds of pure Honda V-four history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Aprilia also uses a SSS on the Futura, and BMW has used them for years too. IIRC there was an Italian bike built in the 1940's with SSS, and scooters have had them for eons. An additional advantage of the SSS is the ease of chain adjustment via the rotating eccentric hub. The disadvantage is that as the chain wears, the bikes suspension geometry changes. SSS is also a fair bit heavier than conventional swingarm, and since quick-change rear ends were developed for conventional swingarms the SSS is no longer an advantage in pitstops. Slightly OT, but this is an excellent site for checking out the various bike suspension styles - has very good graphic representation of how each style works. http://www.carbibles.com/suspension_bible_bikes.html (you beat me to it Dutchinterceptor! :lol: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enzed_viffer Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Of the current or recent single-sided swingarms, I think the VFR's are probably the ugliest (although the BMW's is a tad industrial). Triumph, Ducati and MV all have prettier ones, with the MV having to be the pick of the bunch. And it's not just the swingarm itself - the hub on the VFR750 and 800 is an ugly thing. Why couldn't Honda have made it less chunky? Climb aboard a VFR after riding a conventionally-swingarmed bike, especially one with a fairly light swingarm, and the first thing you'll notice is the higher unsprung weight of the rear end. The back wheel clunks and bangs over ripples, potholes and smaller bumps. It's not the most sensible of designs. Then there's the problem of water and dirt ingress via the holes/ports in the swingarm, getting into the rear hub and seizing things up. But it's really kewl being able to adjust the chain so readily, without worrying if the axle is straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer chris2992 Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 Under all the plastic and crap of the 1800cc Goldwings is a SSSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Under all the plastic and crap of the 1800cc Goldwings is a SSSA. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But it's still a biatch to change the rear tyre during an Iron Butt pitstop... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer benSV Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 Of the current or recent single-sided swingarms, I think the VFR's are probably the ugliest (although the BMW's is a tad industrial). Triumph, Ducati and MV all have prettier ones, with the MV having to be the pick of the bunch. And it's not just the swingarm itself - the hub on the VFR750 and 800 is an ugly thing. Why couldn't Honda have made it less chunky?Climb aboard a VFR after riding a conventionally-swingarmed bike, especially one with a fairly light swingarm, and the first thing you'll notice is the higher unsprung weight of the rear end. The back wheel clunks and bangs over ripples, potholes and smaller bumps. It's not the most sensible of designs. Then there's the problem of water and dirt ingress via the holes/ports in the swingarm, getting into the rear hub and seizing things up. But it's really kewl being able to adjust the chain so readily, without worrying if the axle is straight. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Are you sure the rear wheel clanking around has anything to do with the higher unsprung weight of the SSA and isn't just the craptacular nature of the VFRs stock shock or it's linkage design? There are plenty of Ducs and Triumphs that have a much more supple rear end despite having the SSA design. I think the SSA itself only became a limitation in racing recently... at race speeds and at race needs for the lightest weight. I haven't rode a VFR with a better shock but I'm guessing that would really clean up the feeling of the rear end of the bike. Heck mine even feels better just by tacking on a passenger or the hardbags with some weight. I think the rear of the bike just isn't properly sorted stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 The single sided swingarm was invented around 1980 by Guy Coulon when he was a chief mechanic at Elf sponsored World Endurance Racing... Honda bought the rights because it afforded ultra quick wheel changes... at the time Honda's V4s were shredding tires at a alarming rate... Ducati's chief designer... Massimo Tamburini... is on record stating that he was inspired by the 1990 NR750 (RC40) and copied the SSA and under tail exhaust... the result... 94 Ducati 916... http://www.reeky.org/gallery/NR750 border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer SAFE-T Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 SSS is also a fair bit heavier than conventional swingarm, and since quick-change rear ends were developed for conventional swingarms the SSS is no longer an advantage in pitstops. The material I've seen suggests the SSS is 12% heavier than a conventional dual-sided swingarm. Pitstops aside, it's really nice to be able to easily remove the wheel for tire changes. I can take my rear wheel off in about 5 min and not even get dirty - try that with a dual where you have to loosen calipers, remove cotter pins, undo bolts, remove washers, slide axles out and pull chains away from rear sprockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer SAFE-T Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 I think the SSA itself only became a limitation in racing recently... at race speeds and at race needs for the lightest weight. Honda pitched it from the RC45 once the bike started making over 175 hp in race trim around 1996 - too flexy. Ducati also experimented with a dual swingarm on Carl Fogarty's World Superbike spec 996 but never adopted it until the new-generation 999 came along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006  Honda pitched it from the RC45 once the bike started making over 175 hp in race trim around 1996 - too flexy.  <{POST_SNAPBACK}>  Honda experimented with a DSS dual sided swingarm on the RC45 but did not adopt it citing no clear advantage over the cast magnesium single sided swingarm... you have to remember that a cast magnesium SSS is lighter or just as light as a cast and extruded aluminum DSS... I think Ducati cites cost as the reason for going with a DSS after years campaigning a SSS... www.v-four.freeserve.co.uk/rc45-99.htm border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer benSV Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 Who cares about old racebikes. The RC30/45 all probably get schooled by today's stock 1000RR anyway. Point was has anyone else rode the Ducs or Triumphs with single sided swingarms and disagree with me that they don't have any of the problems the VFR has? I think the VFR just needs a better shock, the SSA does not need to go to increase the suspension quality of the rear end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Honda experimented with a DSS dual sided swingarm on the RC45 but did not adopt it? citing no clear advantage over the cast magnesium single sided swingarm... you have to remember that a cast magnesium SSS is lighter or just as light as a cast and extruded aluminum DSS...? ? I think Ducati cites cost as the reason for going with a DSS after years campaigning a? SSS... www.v-four.freeserve.co.uk/rc45-99.htm border='0' alt='user posted image' /> <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I dunno!, It aint an RC anymore without the SSS IMO! I actually quit following SBK when the double swinger 45s came out. The vision didn't seem to be focused for Honda anymore. Never mind the VTR1000, which seemed like such a techno reverse for Honda. It doesn't help that I find them less attractive than the RCs. It also seems to be an admittance of defeat to the V twin "Ducky" philosophy of racing. V-fourever!!!! Beck 95 RC36 :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SagaciousDupe Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Point was has anyone else rode the Ducs or Triumphs with single sided swingarms and disagree with me that they don't have any of the problems the VFR has?I think the VFR just needs a better shock, the SSA does not need to go to increase the suspension quality of the rear end. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Completely agree! While I don't have an expensive aftermarket shock, I did throw an F4i shock on. Night and day!! The spring is a bit light (sag is perfect, but maxed out on the pre-load setting) ~ the action is much smoother than the stock shock was. I can only imagine an how much better a good shock would be! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Honda experimented with a DSS dual sided swingarm on the RC45 but did not adopt it citing no clear advantage over the cast magnesium single sided swingarm... you have to remember that a cast magnesium SSS is lighter or just as light as a cast and extruded aluminum DSS...  I think Ducati cites cost as the reason for going with a DSS after years campaigning a SSS... Larry, what's happening with your HRC kit swingarm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kwb377 Posted February 28, 2006 Member Contributer Share Posted February 28, 2006 Here's the 1980 Beemer R80G/S with the monolever SSA... http://www.micapeak.com/bmw/gs/gs_mono.html#R80PD border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 767fixer Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Completely agree! While I don't have an expensive aftermarket shock, I did throw an F4i shock on. Night and day!! The spring is a bit light (sag is perfect, but maxed out on the pre-load setting) ~ the action is much smoother than the stock shock was. I can only imagine an how much better a good shock would be! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> what year cbr shocks work on the vtecs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SagaciousDupe Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 what year cbr shocks work on the vtecs? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The 600 F4i shocks work. Mine was from a 2003. They are about 10mm short, so will have to shim it. I weigh about 175 geared up, so if you are more will have to get a different spring. Changing the pre-load is impossible unless you make a tool (the adjustment is on the bottom of the shock ~ ends up inside the swingarm). I adjusted it while installing ~ bolt it in, check sag, take it out and adjust, put it back in.....etc. I did it as more of an experiment since you can get one for like $20 delivered on ebay...turned out much better than I expected. [edit] If looking for an F4i shock on ebay, they are the ones with the yellow spring...I believe the ones with the red spring are for F3's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ihilker Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 The VFR's suspension definately has room for improvement, especially for bigger heavier riders. I know VFR FLYER is currently having a Pensky rear shock and Racetech springs put on his 5th Gen. Maybe he could give us a comparison when this blasted rain stops. There are many VFR members that have done suspension upgrades and could shed some light on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 As much as I love the SSS on the VFRs and RCs, there is something about it that was never really fixed. The problem of the ride height and geometry being affected by the eccentric hub chain adjustment system. The tighter you go with the chain, the lower the tail drops. There were eccentric flip solutions that people came up with, but they were not that simple to do and rear brake caliper configurations on some models that made it even more complicated to do. Beck 95 VFR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2003_VTEC_Rider Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 Havng the SSSA is one of the reasons I bought my VFR, and I love it every time I look at it. There are always pros and cons to most anything, and personally after seeing my buddy trying adjust the chain on his R1, with no centerstand, and on a conventional swingarm, I will take my chances with the viffer, :D Busy had it right. Elf develpoed the technology back in the day. I can remember seeing those bikes race and thinking that swingarm was the coolest thing on the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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