86 VFR700F Retool or therapy or both

[Terry]

That's a bummer. All I do know is that you cannot substitute any other year's starter clutch if you replace it. The bumps on the starter clutch case are triggers for the ignition and the 86/87 bikes are unique, compared to later VFR750s. 

[Captain 80s]

9 hours ago, Terry said:

That's a bummer. All I do know is that you cannot substitute any other year's starter clutch if you replace it. The bumps on the starter clutch case are triggers for the ignition and the 86/87 bikes are unique, compared to later VFR750s. 

 

It's actually the 86 that is unique, making the part even rarer.  The 87 outer housing shares the same part number with the 1990 VFR, even though the drawing on the parts diagram looks like the 86, not the 90. 

[tsmitty]

13 hours ago, Terry said:

The bumps on the starter clutch case are triggers

Thanks Terry and thanks Captain. 

Boy its going to be hard to articulate this one.

1) There are 2 triggers on the 86 , i assume 180 deg. apposed. each trigger is 1.237 long (their ends are parallel to each other).

2) How many triggers are on the still available 1990? Wouldn't it be charming if you could fill in between 2 of the 90s triggers and its 180 deg. apposing side, then remove the remaining un-needed triggers to recreate the 1986? 

3) I assume the spline is the same.

4) Does someone have access to the two models to compare?

 

Captain, where do you reference your drawings from?

 

Thanks again guys!

Edited June 28, 2023 by tsmitty
my grammar sucks

[tsmitty]

14 minutes ago, tsmitty said:

3) I assume the spline is the same.

Its the same timing plate! 

I think modifying, adding to and removing the existing triggers of the 1990 unit to copy the 1986 might be something to consider. 

Do you think a certified tig-welding dude could tack in carbon filler pieces without tempering the hardened steel clutch portion of the assembly?

[Captain 80s]

I don't have the right crankcase cover off of my 92 at the moment.  But this is what it looks like.  Quite different trigger pattern.

 

 

I go to Babbits Honda for parts diagrams
 

 

 

[tsmitty]

Yes sir modifying that pattern to copy the 86 pattern.

 

 

Remember good welders are machinist and engineers friends.

 

So compare crank position and triggers between the 1986 and the 90 or whatever you got.

 

sorry it hard for me to express this shit...

[Captain 80s]

I'm also worried about potential warping from welding.

 

I'm trying decide if there is any way of bonding triggers on to a housing that I would trust over time.

 

 

[tsmitty]

2 minutes ago, Captain 80s said:

I'm trying decide if there is any way of bonding triggers on to a housing that I would trust over time.

I don’t think brazing requires enough heat to hurt the hardened steel but wont be affected by engine heat.  Braze shaped steel rod to fit.  I’m looking at it as a machinist. 

[Captain 80s]

3 minutes ago, tsmitty said:

I don’t think brazing requires enough heat to hurt the hardened steel but wont be affected by engine heat.  Braze shaped steel rod to fit.  I’m looking at it as a machinist. 

 

I like it.  Unfortunately, seems everyone knows that 86 - 97 starter clutches are sought after commodities.

 

$175 to $300 on eBay.   Need to get lucky and find someone selling a "parts lot" that has one.

[tsmitty]

Tig spot welds with air cooling in between.  Do you know anyone to ask. 

[Captain 80s]

3 minutes ago, Captain 80s said:

 Need to get lucky and find someone selling a "parts lot" that has one.

 

Bingo.

 

eBay listing

[rc24dk]

A shrink fit hoop ring 34CrNiMo6, maybe?

[tsmitty]

9 minutes ago, rc24dk said:

A shrink fit hoop ring?

that's not a bad idea rc! Saves all kinds of heat issues on the hardened stuff.

Thanks

[tsmitty]

6 minutes ago, tsmitty said:

that's not a bad idea rc! Saves all kinds of heat issues on the hardened stuff.

Thanks

It would also add strength to that inside.

[rc24dk]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-strength_low-alloy_steel

Strong and tough, not hard and brittle.

[tsmitty]

I have a 1990 starter clutch coming to the house to compare the "triggers" with my 86.

I need to find myself a cheapie degree wheel, stick it on the stator side of the crank (stator is toast, have to go in there anyway) and see what can be done. 

 

please stay tuned...

 

73's

 

[Captain 80s]

Cool.  This is good stuff!

[rc24dk]

 

[VFR750F3]

I have spare triggers and motors 86 and 87.  

[tsmitty]

Thanks rc for the link to that thread I read through it with interest; the thought of putting a tig-bead on the hardened clutch portion makes me a little uneasy.  Changing the electrical or brain box is beyond my capabilities bigly! lol

Thanks VFR

I'm reading as much info as I can until I get the other clutch.

 

But here is the funny of that video from the above thread, can some one find the assembly error? haha

[Fastdruid]

86 is an analogue ignitor system utilising a simple trigger along with a cam sensor. The 87+ uses (IIRC) 12-1, ie 11 regularly spaced teeth and one missing and hence calculates the crank position. 

87 uses its own ignition system which is different to the 88-89 which is different again to the 90-97. 

 

You can retrofit the newer parts to the 86 however you need quite a few more than you'd expect, you will need. 

 

1) Pickups

2) Starter motor (one off an RC30 will do [not even joking]). 

3) Idler gear. 

4) The actual sprag/starter ring *AND* the gear. 

5) ECU

6) Tacho

7) Fuel cut relay (off 87+)

 

Plus some re-wiring.

 

The additional parts are required because Honda changed the starter motor number of teeth, the idler gear and the starter gear etc. So because you need to change the starter gear you then need to change the idler and because you need to change the idler you need to change the starter! 

 

Tacho changed 86, 87 and 88+

86 runs a dedicated tacho (and fuel relay) connection.

87 (US 700 as well) runs the tacho off the #1 coil. Fuel cut from #3 coil. You could use the 87 tacho on any year if you use a feed from a coil.

88-89 RC24 and 90+ RC36 Runs a dedicated tacho connection that is different to the 86. Fuel cut from #4 coil. 

 

87 is even more of an odd-ball as it's kind of half way between the 86 and the later models. If you're going to bother to upgrade parts then I'd avoid it, might as well go all as then you have 8 years (US) or 10 years (rest of world) worth of s/h parts to pick from rather than one years worth! 

 

The RC36 is identical to the 88-89 RC24 for all the relevant engine internal parts except for the pickups. Unsure what the difference is between the pickups (HBoL does give a different resistance value for the "L" model) but it does mean if you were to pick up all the relevant engine internal parts from an RC36 they should fit the earlier RC24/26.  Easiest ECU to retrofit would be the 88-89, you can pick the connector shells up and just repin the old connectors to new ones and it fits exactly in the same space. RC36 uses a totally different connector and would be a pain. 

 

Only question is though...is the 700's timing different to the 750 and is that enough to matter?

 

 

 

 

[tsmitty]

4 hours ago, Fastdruid said:

86 is an analogue ignitor system utilising a simple trigger along with a cam sensor. The 87+ uses (IIRC) 12-1, ie 11 regularly spaced teeth and one missing and hence calculates the crank position. 

87 uses its own ignition system which is different to the 88-89 which is different again to the 90-97. 

 

You can retrofit the newer parts to the 86 however you need quite a few more than you'd expect, you will need. 

 

1) Pickups

2) Starter motor (one off an RC30 will do [not even joking]). 

3) Idler gear. 

4) The actual sprag/starter ring *AND* the gear. 

5) ECU

6) Tacho

7) Fuel cut relay (off 87+)

 

Plus some re-wiring.

 

The additional parts are required because Honda changed the starter motor number of teeth, the idler gear and the starter gear etc. So because you need to change the starter gear you then need to change the idler and because you need to change the idler you need to change the starter! 

 

Tacho changed 86, 87 and 88+

86 runs a dedicated tacho (and fuel relay) connection.

87 (US 700 as well) runs the tacho off the #1 coil. Fuel cut from #3 coil. You could use the 87 tacho on any year if you use a feed from a coil.

88-89 RC24 and 90+ RC36 Runs a dedicated tacho connection that is different to the 86. Fuel cut from #4 coil. 

 

87 is even more of an odd-ball as it's kind of half way between the 86 and the later models. If you're going to bother to upgrade parts then I'd avoid it, might as well go all as then you have 8 years (US) or 10 years (rest of world) worth of s/h parts to pick from rather than one years wThanks Fastorth! 

 

The RC36 is identical to the 88-89 RC24 for all the relevant engine internal parts except for the pickups. Unsure what the difference is between the pickups (HBoL does give a different resistance value for the "L" model) but it does mean if you were to pick up all the relevant engine internal parts from an RC36 they should fit the earlier RC24/26.  Easiest ECU to retrofit would be the 88-89, you can pick the connector shells up and just repin the old connectors to new ones and it fits exactly in the same space. RC36 uses a totally different connector and would be a pain. 

 

Only question is though...is the 700's timing different to the 750 and is that enough to matter?

 

 

 

 

Thanks Fastd for the insight but respectfully, if that's what needs to happen to get the engine running then I am done here! No way! I'll take the starter off and push start the bike...no...thats too hard too! 

[tsmitty]

I need to see this part in my hands before I can wrap my head around the issue.

I apologize I can't even articulate my plan of attack. You'll all have to wait for the movie... haha

 

[rc24dk]

I think the point of the thread linked to is that it is possible to combine a newer outer clutch (the hardened steel piece with the outer shell (sheet metal piece with the ignition triggers) from your 86. I think the referred to TIG welds are just spots but I am not sure of the purpose of these spot welds as the parts are bolted together anyway.

[tsmitty]

39 minutes ago, rc24dk said:

I think the point of the thread linked to is that it is possible to combine a newer outer clutch (the hardened steel piece with the outer shell (sheet metal piece with the ignition triggers) from your 86. I think the referred to TIG welds are just spots but I am not sure of the purpose of these spot welds as the parts are bolted together anyway.

Yes exactly and I appreciate that, I'm kinda conjuring up something along those lines...it's gunna take a minute to get the part in and have a look.