VFROr Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 Several hundred miles into a recent trip, I started seeing oil on my rear rim, drips coming from the edge of the plastic cover near the drain and fill holes. With the cover removed couldn't clearly identify either as the source of the leak, though, they were both clean and dry appearing. I cleaned everything up and continued on, inspecting intermittently, oil would reappear as before after a couple hundred miles. When I got to family destination, popped the oil filler cap and there was a whoosh of pressure released and a little oil drained out, indicating that I overfilled the case when I changed the drive oil before my trip. All filing and draining was done on the sidestand per the manual. My garage floor isn't perfectly level but I didn't think the slight overfill would be a problem. I drained the Valvoline synthetic 75w-90 and replaced it with same except not synthetic, replaced the drain bolt sealing washer, and re-filled being cautious to not overfill. Rode the 1500 miles home with no more leaks, and when I removed the filler cap there was no pressure release at all. I live at about 500 ft elevation and family at over 5000 ft, do you suppose that could account for the pressurizing? Is the final gear case supposed to vent? Anybody else had similar experience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer swimmer Posted July 28, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 28, 2015 Since you fill to the fill hole I don't think you can over fill unless you tilt the bike to the right past vertical (I.e. so the fill hole is facing upwards. The service manual says to fill up to filler hole but doesn't state on side stand or centerstand and this is after they say to drain with rear wheel lifted. So, I am guessing filling it up anywhere from side stand to vertical is ok. Was the FD roughly the same temp when you opened it up each time? Don't think elevation will matter at those differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFROr Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Since you fill to the fill hole I don't think you can over fill unless you tilt the bike to the right past vertical (I.e. so the fill hole is facing upwards. The service manual says to fill up to filler hole but doesn't state on side stand or centerstand and this is after they say to drain with rear wheel lifted. So, I am guessing filling it up anywhere from side stand to vertical is ok. Was the FD roughly the same temp when you opened it up each time? Don't think elevation will matter at those differences. The drive was not so hot that I couldn't hold my bare hand on it whenever I checked it. My interpretation of the procedure is to have the rear lifted in order to turn the wheel for complete draining, then fill to hole on the sidestand. Probably some room for error, but the service manual also states overfilling can cause leaks, but leaves you guessing where it might leak from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Oregonian Posted July 28, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 28, 2015 How is it possible that you filled it with the bike on the sidestand, but that oil would pour out of the filler with the bike on the sidestand? The manual says nothing about turning the wheel during filling. Perhaps that lead to an overfill situation. Weird. Edit - Sorry - I misread. Did you turn the wheel while you were filling the bike or when draining to make sure all the old oil was removed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volfy Posted July 28, 2015 Share Posted July 28, 2015 The which-way-to-fill-the-FD-oil has been debated. As the manual states: on side stand. Realistically though, the difference is not much and I've done it both ways... on side stand and on OEM center stand. No problem. I don't believe the FD is supposed to air tight and should be vented. The fact that you hear a pressure release sound might indicate that vent valve might be blocked. I've taken the filler cap several times on the VFR1200 and have never heard a pressure release or suction sound. None of my other shaftie bikes does that either... and I've had quite a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFROr Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 Did you turn the wheel while you were filling the bike or when draining to make sure all the old oil was removed? while draining per manual I don't believe the FD is supposed to air tight and should be vented. The fact that you hear a pressure release sound might indicate that vent valve might be blocked. I've taken the filler cap several times on the VFR1200 and have never heard a pressure release or suction sound. None of my other shaftie bikes does that either... and I've had quite a few. Odd that it only did it on the one occasion. It would be nice to know with certainty that there is indeed a vent valve, and if so where it is located. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted July 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 29, 2015 Don't know how official it is, but according to http://vfr1200fa.blogspot.com/2010/12/not-just-any-shaft-drive.html The final drive housing with ring gear and pinion is designed as a closed system, which is also something new. During operation, the oil in the final drive heats up and expands; in order to equalize pressure in the housing previous Honda shaft drives were fitted with a cast-in vent cap. That is different now. Special shaft seal rings are used on the VFR that can withstand higher pressures. The pressure provided by these seal lips provide reliable sealing without the need to provide extra pressure compensation at the housing. The drive shaft housing could be made smoother and more modern looking on the outside without the vent cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFROr Posted July 29, 2015 Author Share Posted July 29, 2015 Don't know how official it is, but according to http://vfr1200fa.blogspot.com/2010/12/not-just-any-shaft-drive.html The final drive housing with ring gear and pinion is designed as a closed system, which is also something new. During operation, the oil in the final drive heats up and expands; in order to equalize pressure in the housing previous Honda shaft drives were fitted with a cast-in vent cap. That is different now. Special shaft seal rings are used on the VFR that can withstand higher pressures. The pressure provided by these seal lips provide reliable sealing without the need to provide extra pressure compensation at the housing. The drive shaft housing could be made smoother and more modern looking on the outside without the vent cap. Thanks very much for the details, sure seems like manufacturer supplied info. I have looked through the service manual diagrams for any hint of a vent valve and saw nothing, but I'm old and blind. I think I will exercise more caution in filling the drive in the future. The service manual plainly states it can cause leaks or at least play a role, so I'll go with that for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted July 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 29, 2015 Yeah, it sounds as if the new system is less tolerant of overfilling. With the vent in others (like my ST) pressure won't build up and force fluid past seals. As far as your initial post, pressure release and fluid coming from the filler could be just normal result of heated fluid from riding. Keep an eye out for leaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Oregonian Posted July 29, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted July 29, 2015 How is it possible to overfill if the bike is on the sidestand and not a centerstand? Won't any extra oil drip out before the cap is reinstalled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFROr Posted August 18, 2016 Author Share Posted August 18, 2016 After a few thousand miles with no more leaking, it re-appeared during yesterday's ride. Identical to what was happening on last summer's road trip. I had the drive recall done early this spring and put a couple of thousand miles on post work, no leaks whatsoever. I haven't done much riding this summer for various reasons, finally got out yesterday for about a 500 miler. Spent the first hundred miles or so working at a pretty good clip, (90 or so with occasional slow downs for known trooper hideouts). Got out into the big empty of central Oregon and really let the VFR have its head, lots of runs to a dollar fifteen and a nice burst over a buck 30, temps were in the mid 90s. It was after this rapid transit session that I noticed the oil on the rim, similar scenario to last time: higher speeds on a hot day. Here's some pics, best guess is that the leak originates at the drain plug (you can see the copper washer on it in the pics). I'll replace the drive oil and washer soon, not too worried about the issue as the quantity of oil leaked is small despite the mess, oil never makes it way onto the tire at all, nor the rear brake. Still no one elese experiencing this? Any thoughts as to why the drops on the rim spread laterally instead of the direction of rotation, seems odd to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crakerjac Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 I wonder if you have a bad seal/bearing and it's coming out near the rear wheel speedo pickup. I don't know what the joint where the FD meets up with the hub is called... but your rear wheel looks like my wife's bike where she gets a little carried away with the chain lube... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rider14 Posted August 18, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted August 18, 2016 Try a different seal washer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilprofessore Posted August 18, 2016 Share Posted August 18, 2016 It seems a filler cap leakage due to overfill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rider14 Posted August 19, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted August 19, 2016 I was going by his comment that it was the drain plug... try a different type of seal washer, and if it's the filler plug, maybe replace the seal ring? Isn't there an o-ring in there? Haven't changed my final drive oil yet. -Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veeefour Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 Drain plug is a regular Allen M8 bolt with copper crush washer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFROr Posted August 20, 2016 Author Share Posted August 20, 2016 On 8/18/2016 at 6:35 AM, crakerjac said: I wonder if you have a bad seal/bearing and it's coming out near the rear wheel speedo pickup. I don't know what the joint where the FD meets up with the hub is called... but your rear wheel looks like my wife's bike where she gets a little carried away with the chain lube... Thanks for the suggestion, hadn't specifically checked there but it's dry. On 8/18/2016 at 11:18 AM, Rider14 said: Try a different seal washer? I swapped the original washer the first time around to the copper one thats on there now, it hadn't leaked for several thousand miles until now. I'm prestty sure it only leaks on extended high speed riding on very hot days. I suspect a pressure buildup that will force its way past any washer. On 8/18/2016 at 0:59 PM, ilprofessore said: It seems a filler cap leakage due to overfill. negative, the fill cap area is bone dry and very careful to not overfill. 7 hours ago, Rider14 said: I was going by his comment that it was the drain plug... try a different type of seal washer, and if it's the filler plug, maybe replace the seal ring? Isn't there an o-ring in there? Haven't changed my final drive oil yet. -Dan there is an oring there, but the area is dry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer swimmer Posted August 21, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted August 21, 2016 OP, seems like a useless endeavor but, maybe replace the fill plug itself. Hard to imagine an issue with it but, no reason the copper gasket itself would leak regardless of pressure. Maybe the screw has some sort of defect on the sealing surface or otherwise. All inspect the sealing service on the FD itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VFROr Posted August 21, 2016 Author Share Posted August 21, 2016 2 hours ago, swimmer said: OP, seems like a useless endeavor but, maybe replace the fill plug itself. Hard to imagine an issue with it but, no reason the copper gasket itself would leak regardless of pressure. Maybe the screw has some sort of defect on the sealing surface or otherwise. All inspect the sealing service on the FD itself. good ideas, cheap and easy and might just be the fix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crakerjac Posted August 22, 2016 Share Posted August 22, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer RC1237V Posted August 23, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted August 23, 2016 If I remember correctly the fill plug felt as if it were made of pot metal or aluminum. It was so light, I initially thought it might be plastic. It's only $10 at partzilla and a buck-something for the O-ring. If the fill cap had a crack, or was slightly deformed, it could loose it's sealing ability when there was some pressure build up in the FD unit, causing it to spray out a small amount.......there are bleeders on my dirt bike forks just for that (or similar) purpose..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 i had the filler plug on my 2010 break while changing the Final drive oil....if you look close. it's the same part that Honda used for the valve tappet adjuster port cover on most of their 70's motors....my trail 90, XL100, and CB750F used them.....the filler cap on my VFR was a porous casting and cracked at the last thread....yours could be broken and not sealing tight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 that crush washer on the drain plug needs to be replaced EVERY time you remove it....once it crushes, it's done, can only be used once Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veeefour Posted August 23, 2016 Share Posted August 23, 2016 3 hours ago, lshark said: that crush washer on the drain plug needs to be replaced EVERY time you remove it....once it crushes, it's done, can only be used once Propane torch and it will be like new... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lshark Posted August 24, 2016 Share Posted August 24, 2016 $1.68 from Partzilla.... http://www.partzilla.com/parts/detail/honda/HP-90471-580-000.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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