Switchable Headlights

[AndyJ]

The other day while riding in stop & go traffic, my battery discharged to the point it shut the bike off. I was able to get going by unplugging the headlight bulbs and bump starting it (fortunately someone stopped to help bump, as it was uphill). Everything checked out fine when I got home; I think the fan running constantly along with 2 H4s and everything is just too much when crawling along at idle for an hour.

So, along with ordering a Signal Dynamics voltage monitor, my plan to avoid a repeat is to make the headlights switchable so I can unload the electrical system while idling or creeping along. Looking at the wiring diagram, I'm thinking the easiest way to do this would be to put a switch inline with the white wire on the headlight relay (same wire that goes to the hi/lo switch.)

[gll429]

yup, thats the way to do it.. an on /off switch :fing02:

[HispanicSlammer]

No that's not quite right? The bike should be able to handle that load no problem, your charging system needs testing I suspect a loss in charging capacity. Either a phase of the stator is going out, bad battery, or the old Regulator/Rectifier is acting up. Have it tested properly you might have a problem do this before you get stranded!

[coderighter]

A couple weeks ago I was doing some taking some voltage measurements, testing for a headlight control device I'm working on and I forgot to reconnect the lights when I got done. Later that day I made a quick run to the store and got pulled over by Johnny-law for no headlight. He didn't give me a ticket, and was actually very nice about it, but he did remind me that I need to have at least one light on at all times.

Maybe it would be good to have a duel position rocker and switch the individual bulbs. Have one position single bulb(normal operating), center all off, the other position both bulbs for night operation. Just make sure to use at least a 15 amp switch. If you don't do alot of night riding, the switch could be somewhat hidden.

Another idea you could do is change to LED and HID bulbs. HID use about 2/3 the power for 3 times more light and LED use about a 1/10 the power of the stock bulbs. This is what I did.

Also, if you can find a way to richen up the mixture a little, the fan will run less. If your fan is stock and it's running above say 30 mph, it's not helping cool since it's trying to pull air in the opposite direction of the air flow created by the bike moving through the air. Because the air is actually working against the fan, the fan is actually drawing more current than normal do to the increased load. At that point the fan is could be a larger load than the lights. A switch for the fan might also be an idea for your problem.

Always using some type of battery tender or float charger will help keep your battery at peak and help absorb some of the high demand power cycles.

[timmythecop]

I dont know enough to know if this applies to modern bikes, but earlier bikes (espescially suzuki) had a master lights on-off switch and had a real problem with charging with the lights off. At least with the old systems, the load of the headlights was built in and when you subtracted that load, the R/R went nuts and pooped the bed.

maybe an electrical guy could expound on this for me.................

[SEBSPEED]

I dont know enough to know if this applies to modern bikes, but earlier bikes (espescially suzuki) had a master lights on-off switch and had a real problem with charging with the lights off. At least with the old systems, the load of the headlights was built in and when you subtracted that load, the R/R went nuts and pooped the bed.

maybe an electrical guy could expound on this for me.................

I concur, this would go for modern bikes too. The system is designed(however well or poorly) to make X amount of electricity, keeping in mind the draw of all the stock components. The extra is to compensate for resistance over time due to connections that get dirty, and also for accessories. The regulator is where all the extra gets dumped, and the more efficient you make the bike by using LEDs/HIDs, etc, the more the R/R has to burn off(literally).

Therefore, if you reduce the draw without adding other items to again increase the draw - you consequently ask more of the reg/rec and can expect it to at the least get smoking hot and fail early.

[AndyJ]

yup, thats the way to do it.. an on /off switch :laughing6-hehe:

There's one in every group.... :)

Battery's about two years old, so that may be part of the issue. I normally have it on a battery tender anytime I won't be riding the next day. This hasn't happened before or since, seemed like the worst combination of low speed/RPM etc with max electrical draw for a good hour straight of stop/creep. That plus the H4s drawing 110W vs 90W for the Hondology bulbs. I should be expecting it to idle with everything on and not discharge?

I guess I'll be checking the stator tomorrow...

[gll429]

yup.. thats me the 1 in every group.. and as much as i hate to say seb is wrong.. the r/r dumps the extra juice into the frame.. i have removed ALL the lights and guages and turnsigs and added a small 35 watt projector,and a strip led tail light... and put a simple on/off switch and put a TINY battery from a 50 cc on the bike.

that was 4 years ago.. and it still has the same r/r.. i texted and asked when reading this ..

as for my first post.. i had assumed that all the other stuff was taken care of. :laughing6-hehe:

[AndyJ]

yup.. thats me the 1 in every group.. and as much as i hate to say seb is wrong.. the r/r dumps the extra juice into the frame.. i have removed ALL the lights and guages and turnsigs and added a small 35 watt projector,and a strip led tail light... and put a simple on/off switch and put a TINY battery from a 50 cc on the bike.

that was 4 years ago.. and it still has the same r/r.. i texted and asked when reading this ..

as for my first post.. i had assumed that all the other stuff was taken care of. :laughing6-hehe:

Until Thursday I thought it was all taken care of too...

Did a new RR & VFRNess right after I got the bike, always goes on a battery tender, & never any trouble until this one event. I just don't expect a vehicle to be able to power everything at low rpm for that long without discharging, whether we're talking bikes, cars, airplanes, or whatever.

From what you guys are telling me, it's not quite a direct comparison.

OK so am I understanding correctly:

The mfr designs the system to put out exactly what's needed to power the stock electrical equipment, any excess gets burned up as heat in the RR. But there's also variability with RPM, like when you do an idle & 5000rpm voltage test. So if you add load, there's a bit of reserve output and you can spin it faster to get enough output, but if you reduce load, it just adds to stress on the RR?

OK Next stupid question for the gurus- based on my searches around VFRD, the euro VFRs apparently have a headlight on-off switch. Are they using different RRs/stators to make it work properly?

[gll429]

if you have a new working r/r.. get some silver heat transfer compound from a computer store.. and a 10 buck fan.. and ground your green wires from the r/r to the FRAME.. ditto for the main harness. find the main ground wire in the harness and ground it to the frame.. front, mid, and back. :laughing6-hehe:

some states have a law that says you must have a headlight on at all times.. but they dont say how BIG.. get some led flash lights from $1 store and wire it up clean under the fairing.. and hook up an on/off switch for the main lights. :beatdeadhorse:

[JES_VFR]

The other day while riding in stop & go traffic, my battery discharged to the point it shut the bike off. I was able to get going by unplugging the headlight bulbs and bump starting it (fortunately someone stopped to help bump, as it was uphill). Everything checked out fine when I got home; I think the fan running constantly along with 2 H4s and everything is just too much when crawling along at idle for an hour.

So, along with ordering a Signal Dynamics voltage monitor, my plan to avoid a repeat is to make the headlights switchable so I can unload the electrical system while idling or creeping along. Looking at the wiring diagram, I'm thinking the easiest way to do this would be to put a switch inline with the white wire on the headlight relay (same wire that goes to the hi/lo switch.)

Well there is a lot of stuff here.

First off, That DAMN fan!!

Codewriter (and others) may disagree with me when I say that FNG suck-in fan design is a total turd, but at least we agree that the worst thing it can possibly do is stay running when you start moving again, and I mean at anything over say 15mph. He is absolutely on the correct path with the air flowing in is adding load to the fan. Way more than you are supposed to have to deal with.

So my first suggestion is get the VTR fan blade and swap it out.., then the flow from the fan matches the natural moving flow from the bike, so once the fan spins up to speed there should be no more big amp loads on the system.

Next (not done beating on the fan design yet), The R&R dumps any extra electricity into the plate behind it and then into the subframe as heat. But if the fan is running, then there is no cool airflow through the rear of the bike. All the heat removed from the left rad is just pumped around the engine/frame/exhaust and back across the R&R/subframe combination. That can't help cooling of the R&R or it's ability to properly charge the battery, which is also getting baked by all that heat.

Adding a switch to the headlight circuit is going to add resistance to the whole circuit, you added H4's for more light, but if you add the switch, your going to be dropping the voltage to them. You'll loose less if you use a relay to before the white wire gets to left beam switch, but that is still going to drop a few tenth's of a volt.

I've been running h4s in my 01, pretty much since I got it new. And while one day I'll upgrade gauge of wire to the relays up under the instruments and forward to the bulb sockets (Assuming I don't do HID's first), can't complain about the load they have added to the charging system or the light that they throw.

But I thing that your really missing the problem. The headlights are not the problem, It's the cooling fan that's killing you.

I'd suggest you look at the following things.

1. Check the charging system, go through the electromotive trouble shooting diagram. if that all checks out (and it sounds like you've already done most of it). Don't forget to get the battery load tested, I've had a couple of bike batteries show 12.8 volts until tested, then they plummet to 8 or 9V.

2. Get the VTR fan and swap it out. It literally is a bolt in modification. If I lived closer to you, I be setting a date for you to come over here and I'd do it.

Its not hard and it will go a long way towards handling any cooling problems you have.

3. Check your coolant and replace it. IF you are using the Honda approved EG coolant, I'd mix it 65% distilled water/30%EG coolant/15% a water wetter type product (I like hyper lubes super coolant). Whatever you use, do not use a total mix that is less than 50% water, and I would shoot for more like 70% water, unless you totally get away from the Ethylene Glycol coolants.

Personally, I would get away from the eg mixes for a number of reasons, and go with one of the NO WATER PG coolants (like Evans NPG+).

[V4 Rosso]

I should be expecting it to idle with everything on and not discharge?

I don't think so. Lights, fan, FI and ignition will probably pull a lot more load than the stator can deliver. So if you often find yourself in heavy traffic like that, an on/off switch might be the solution.

OK Next stupid question for the gurus- based on my searches around VFRD, the euro VFRs apparently have a headlight on-off switch. Are they using different RRs/stators to make it work properly?

No, same RR but we laneshare so creeping along with the other traffic and the engine rpm at idle is unknown to us :fing02:

[AndyJ]

Update: I did my own pseudo load test - just left the key on/engine off with a voltmeter on the battery. It started off at 11.9, slowly dropped to 11.4, then fell off the cliff to 7.8 in a few minutes. I was expecting a pretty linear discharge rate. Bad battery?

Stator checks out OK. I let it run at idle with the fan on, voltage was 12.8 fan off, when the fan kicked on it went down to 12.1-12.2, then started very slowly drifting below 12. I did have a minor revelation that if ever in that situation again, you could use the 'choke' as a kind of idle-up. Set at 2000rpm, voltage with the fan on was 13+.

[Guest]

What's a "few" minutes? With the key on and only low-beams lit, I would think you should get 20 or more minutes before it crashes like that. Batt is probably quite weak at this point since they don't do well after deep discharge. Don't know about 5th gen, but I think 6th gen has sufficient power output for fan on at idle. I did some testing once which appeared to show that the fan and high beams use about the same amount of power individually. So, by that logic, if the charging system can maintain 13V+ at the battery during idle with high & low beams on, then low beams + fan should be OK too. I currently get 13.25V (idle, H&L beams, no fan).

[kaldek]

Update: I did my own pseudo load test - just left the key on/engine off with a voltmeter on the battery. It started off at 11.9, slowly dropped to 11.4, then fell off the cliff to 7.8 in a few minutes. I was expecting a pretty linear discharge rate. Bad battery?

Stator checks out OK. I let it run at idle with the fan on, voltage was 12.8 fan off, when the fan kicked on it went down to 12.1-12.2, then started very slowly drifting below 12. I did have a minor revelation that if ever in that situation again, you could use the 'choke' as a kind of idle-up. Set at 2000rpm, voltage with the fan on was 13+.

Dude - your voltage is way too low. It should be at least 13.5 volts at idle (14 volts is better) and should not drop. There are only a couple of reasons for it ever dropping:

1. You have a 2002 model VFR with an original model stator that can't put out enough juice at idle to keep 14 volts when under full load (i.e. high beams on). Because of this, when the stator starts to go, they have charging problems which are more apparent because there's no headroom for a drop in stator output at idle.
   
2. Your stator is snorked and will slowly get worse until it stops putting out power altogether.
   
3. Your battery is snorked due to being run dead flat. Maintenance-free batteries don't like being flattened. When they go down to fully dead, they tend to break and not hold a charge ever again. Your battery might be stuffed because the stator wasn't charging it, so make sure the stator FULLY checks out. You say the stator "checked out OK". What do you mean by this - did you check the AC voltage across all three pins when the engine was running?
   

FYI, the required voltages for the stator are something like 39 volts AC at idle, and 65 volts AC at 5,000rpm. The reading must be the same (or very, very close) across all three pins. That being pins 1-2, 1-3, and 2-3.