Can Short People Get A Knee Down?

[VFR Capt.Bob]

I'm really surprised that we're even having to go this far with this discussion as some of the negative posters obviously watch racing and obviously see the pro's using much the same basic techniques(with personal variations of course) as we've been talking about. There's reason they do what they do the way they do it.

I really wasn't trying to be negative in my prior posts, sorry if I came across that way. I was just trying to get the point across that correct body position is from personal technique and experience. I guess if you want to put your knee and toe out 90 degrees at turn in you can, but IMO there is no reason to. When I was first starting to ride fast on the track I was doing the same thing, but as I've progressed in pace if my knee goes out more then 45 degrees I know I'm doing something wrong. You have tons of lean angle left in your pics. All I know is I don't do that, I win some races from time to time and I very, very rarely crash. (besides being smooth, that’s my goal every time I ride :D)

Fair enough, but as you've alluded to..everyone's style/technique can and will be different. I'm of the school that weight transfer is extremely important in terms of maintaining less bike lean angle which equals safety....and that's a major part of the reason that as you stated that I've got tons of lean angle left in the pics... EXACTLY!!!! That's a good thing in my mind....especially on the street.

As we've also talked about in this thread, as the bike's lean angle increases the knee is obviously forced more inward.

This thread started with the OP asking about dragging knees being a shorter person. Being shorter myself :idea3: , I felt like I could add some relevant info.

Jeremy mentioned the foot position aspect, which atleast he and I agree is the basis for all "correct" body position. So, I posted up a couple of foot postion pics as a basis for someone to start working on their body position. Your first post basically said that you'd never seen anyone fast ride like that. OK, fine...but obviously there are some pics here of guys riding pretty quickly using that basic foot concept.

You also said that there is no single "correct" technique but simply variations depending on each persons personal style etc. I agree...so I guess my question would be why bag on what Jeremy and I were saying...after all what we do works for us as well as many others. I think we've explained the rational behind our respective technique's pretty clearly.

Why not post up some pics of yourself with your personal riding style and explain what you do and why you do it? Maybe we can all learn something more in the process :blink:

Just a quick word regaurding having ridden with the Craigster on many occasions. He is as smooth and not straining a rider as I have ever ridden behind. True I only see him in the first few turns before he leaves me. His riding stresses consistent good form in every turn and above all riding in absolute control of his bike.

Getting your butt off of the seat allows your suspension to work freely. Legs allow some additional smoothing out of the ride. Anytime your bike is smoother it is potentially faster in the turns. Leaning off the bike negates a lot of needless and potentially upsetting coutersteering inputs that can wash out a front tire or create a tank slapper as the wheels try to re align themselves. At some point if your are going fast in the twisties you will have to choose to slow down or lean off the bike to maintain control.

[Guest]

Fair enough, but as you've alluded to..everyone's style/technique can and will be different. I'm of the school that weight transfer is extremely important in terms of maintaining less bike lean angle which equals safety....and that's a major part of the reason that as you stated that I've got tons of lean angle left in the pics... EXACTLY!!!! That's a good thing in my mind....especially on the street.

As we've also talked about in this thread, as the bike's lean angle increases the knee is obviously forced more inward.

This thread started with the OP asking about dragging knees being a shorter person. Being shorter myself :idea3: , I felt like I could add some relevant info.

Jeremy mentioned the foot position aspect, which atleast he and I agree is the basis for all "correct" body position. So, I posted up a couple of foot postion pics as a basis for someone to start working on their body position. Your first post basically said that you'd never seen anyone fast ride like that. OK, fine...but obviously there are some pics here of guys riding pretty quickly using that basic foot concept.

You also said that there is no single "correct" technique but simply variations depending on each persons personal style etc. I agree...so I guess my question would be why bag on what Jeremy and I were saying...after all what we do works for us as well as many others. I think we've explained the rational behind our respective technique's pretty clearly.

Why not post up some pics of yourself with your personal riding style and explain what you do and why you do it? Maybe we can all learn something more in the process :blink:

All I am talking about is the one picture of you with your knee and foot sticking out at 85-90 degrees from the centerline of the bike. I don't see people twisting around that much. That pic of Spies at the top of the page looks like he is sticking his leg out at 60 degrees or less from the centerline of the bike. I guess if you're going to put your knee down on the street you don't want max lean angle, but I don't drag my knee on the street very much (it's been years).

IMO if you stick your leg out that much you are losing a lot of bike control under braking as your turning in since you don't have as much grip on the tank.

This is from about three years ago. I've dropped quite a few seconds since these were taken.

KIT_8520.JPG

KIT_8265.JPG

[marid2apterbilt]

Why are all the tall guys in this thread?

Cause you short people cant reach the pavement :idea3:

[jeremy556]

this guy is relatively short:

courtesy of motorcycleusa.com

So much for "looking through the turn"

[Guest]

So much for "looking through the turn"

I'm sure he saw it on the out lap of the first practice session. :idea3:

[Das Bone]

Fair enough, but as you've alluded to..everyone's style/technique can and will be different. I'm of the school that weight transfer is extremely important in terms of maintaining less bike lean angle which equals safety....and that's a major part of the reason that as you stated that I've got tons of lean angle left in the pics... EXACTLY!!!! That's a good thing in my mind....especially on the street.

As we've also talked about in this thread, as the bike's lean angle increases the knee is obviously forced more inward.

This thread started with the OP asking about dragging knees being a shorter person. Being shorter myself :fing02: , I felt like I could add some relevant info.

Jeremy mentioned the foot position aspect, which atleast he and I agree is the basis for all "correct" body position. So, I posted up a couple of foot postion pics as a basis for someone to start working on their body position. Your first post basically said that you'd never seen anyone fast ride like that. OK, fine...but obviously there are some pics here of guys riding pretty quickly using that basic foot concept.

You also said that there is no single "correct" technique but simply variations depending on each persons personal style etc. I agree...so I guess my question would be why bag on what Jeremy and I were saying...after all what we do works for us as well as many others. I think we've explained the rational behind our respective technique's pretty clearly.

Why not post up some pics of yourself with your personal riding style and explain what you do and why you do it? Maybe we can all learn something more in the process :cool:

All I am talking about is the one picture of you with your knee and foot sticking out at 85-90 degrees from the centerline of the bike. I don't see people twisting around that much. That pic of Spies at the top of the page looks like he is sticking his leg out at 60 degrees or less from the centerline of the bike. I guess if you're going to put your knee down on the street you don't want max lean angle, but I don't drag my knee on the street very much (it's been years).

IMO if you stick your leg out that much you are losing a lot of bike control under braking as your turning in since you don't have as much grip on the tank.

This is from about three years ago. I've dropped quite a few seconds since these were taken.

I don't really find it an issue in terms of control when braking honestly. I get plenty of anchor with my outside knee and am able to trail brake etc. with no problem.

I, like most if not all of us started riding with a very upright style using little or no body and relying entirely on countersteering. Then I learned to start using the body with the rotate around the tank style of body positioning with the knee out a bit and that was a definite improvement in terms of feel, control etc. Then I learned to ride the way I do now and have found that by far for ME atleast, this "style" if you will has been far better in terms of control, feel, confidence, safety, etc. Different strokes for different folks and all.

Bottom line is if what you do works for you and you're happy with it...then that's great. :cool: People can decide for themselves which path they want to take hopefully getting enough "real" info to make an educated choice. :fing02:

Thanks for posting up your pics

Capt Bob....thanks for the kind words dude....guess I owe a you breakfast now, huh :laugh:

[Das Bone]

Here's a couple of vid links that I found a while back(and just remembered) that some may find helpful/interesting.

This is Nick Ienatsch and Ken Hill, former instructors with FS school and now with the new Yamaha Champions school based at MMP doing an short body position seminar.

These are the guys that I was fortunate enough to study with. It's a bit difficult to hear some parts due to background noise, but still good.

And here's a vid of the two of them playing on a couple of Buell 1125's at a Carolina Motorsports Park track day :fing02:

[Brown81]

That is an interesting discussion on body position FOR TRACK RIDING.

Again, it should be noted that Nick Ienatsch would encourage riders to learn to ride while hanging off on the track, and that it could be useful to know for STREET riding.

HOWEVER, he would NOT tell anyone to ride this way on the street. In fact, if one were to want to know how Nick felt about street riding, they should look to his book entitled "Sport Riding Techniques" where he will explain (with photos even) what his feelings are about the correct street riding body positioning.

I can tell you it is not dragging knee and hanging off. Don't want to rain on the parade and be a "Negative Nancy" but for goodness' sake, if we are going to use Nick as an example, let's tell the whole story!

I can tell you Ken Hill does not ride around here on the street dragging his knee around and hanging off. He will still blow anyones' doors off.

Here's a couple of vid links that I found a while back(and just remembered) that some may find helpful/interesting.

This is Nick Ienatsch and Ken Hill, former instructors with FS school and now with the new Yamaha Champions school based at MMP doing an short body position seminar.

These are the guys that I was fortunate enough to study with. It's a bit difficult to hear some parts due to background noise, but still good.

And here's a vid of the two of them playing on a couple of Buell 1125's at a Carolina Motorsports Park track day :cool:

[Das Bone]

Brown81...are you speaking in terms of having spoken to Nick about the technique aspect for street riding or are you going off the book?

Have you been to one of their schools as well?

Thanks

[Brown81]

Brown81...are you speaking in terms of having spoken to Nick about the technique aspect for street riding or are you going off the book?

Have you been to one of their schools as well?

Thanks

I am talking about his at length comments in his book regarding "street riding". Why would I need to speak to him personally about it?

Why, did he personally tell you that this is the correct position to be in while street riding while you were at the track school??

[Brown81]

100_2141.JPG

This seems pretty clear.

In the B photo he even starts by saying : "This Racer...." whereas the other photos he says "This rider".

No professional instructor or even rider I have ever seen or known drags knees on the street. None. Sure, they might get froggy on a turn they know well and throw a knee out. But, not really. Mostly the guys I see doing it are guys that do a trackday every now and then or maybe a class or two here and there.

I have never even read a book where anyone even so much as suggested it. Lee Parks, Keith Code, you name it.

The reason why is because with the position Nick recommends above, any speed limit can easily be doubled with plenty of room to spare, so why bother hanging way off and dragging a knee puck? To me, that is like getting in my Simpson Nomex suit and Simpson helmet to make a run through the hills in my Boxter. It's just overkill is all. I wouldn't even think of wearing knee sliders. I'd feel ridiculous, personally.

Again, just throwing out my opinion. Sorry to disagree.

[Das Bone]

Brown81...are you speaking in terms of having spoken to Nick about the technique aspect for street riding or are you going off the book?

Have you been to one of their schools as well?

Thanks

Why, did he personally tell you that this is the correct position to be in while street riding while you were at the track school??

Yes, I have spoken with him personally back in an '05 class I think it was, and let's just say that his answer was a bit different then the book/Pace....mainly due to the book being geared more towards the "average" street rider and the fact that it's very difficult to teach many of the techniques at a high level by way of the printed word. The "in person" experience is geared much higher and handles more advanced techniques understandably.

Regardless, we all should do what we feel makes the most sense once there's a thorough understanding of the pros and cons.

[Das Bone]

This is mainly for Slow :cool:

Here's a vid clip of an interview with Ben Spies at the YCS. Cool to watch on it's own for sure, but slow check out the instructors foot position at about 12 seconds in while he's leading and demoing for the group of students following him...and they're going really slow

http://roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=37980

At this point we've all expressed our thoughts and reasons why we personally do what we do. Doesn't seem like we are going to change each others minds at all so maybe we should just agree to disagree at this point and move forward opening up the thread for any questions that some may have or?????

Just MHO :491:

[jeremy556]

100_2141.JPG

This seems pretty clear.

In the B photo he even starts by saying : "This Racer...." whereas the other photos he says "This rider".

No professional instructor or even rider I have ever seen or known drags knees on the street. None. Sure, they might get froggy on a turn they know well and throw a knee out. But, not really. Mostly the guys I see doing it are guys that do a trackday every now and then or maybe a class or two here and there.

I have never even read a book where anyone even so much as suggested it. Lee Parks, Keith Code, you name it.

The reason why is because with the position Nick recommends above, any speed limit can easily be doubled with plenty of room to spare, so why bother hanging way off and dragging a knee puck? To me, that is like getting in my Simpson Nomex suit and Simpson helmet to make a run through the hills in my Boxter. It's just overkill is all. I wouldn't even think of wearing knee sliders. I'd feel ridiculous, personally.

Again, just throwing out my opinion. Sorry to disagree.

Things like liability and sport image come to mind here.

Most of the really fast track/race guys I know don't ride on the street much if at all any more, however I have seen plenty of white number plates (with WERA/CCS numbers on them) at Deal's Gap, and let's just say, they don't riding the 'pace.'

[sportrider]

I responded several pages back. As I recall, the OP was talking about getting a knee down on a VFR. FWIW, and it being the internets it may not be worth much, I'm with Brown -- I still don't see how you could safely or economically push the performance envelope on the street and on a vfr. Or why you would even want to . . ..

My recommendation remains: take it to the track, and while your there, ride a track bike that is set up for clearance and for crashing. This way, you stand less of a chance of dragging or levering hard parts, and if you toss it in the learning process, which you likely will, the sliders and track fairing flexibility may well just give the ride more character, not cost you over $3K in OEM replacement pretty parts. Plus, the 80 feet 80 mph rule applies, so the repaint jobs don't need to be perfect. :cool:

[Brown81]

Brown81...are you speaking in terms of having spoken to Nick about the technique aspect for street riding or are you going off the book?

Have you been to one of their schools as well?

Thanks

Why, did he personally tell you that this is the correct position to be in while street riding while you were at the track school??

Yes, I have spoken with him personally back in an '05 class I think it was, and let's just say that his answer was a bit different then the book/Pace....mainly due to the book being geared more towards the "average" street rider and the fact that it's very difficult to teach many of the techniques at a high level by way of the printed word. The "in person" experience is geared much higher and handles more advanced techniques understandably.

Regardless, we all should do what we feel makes the most sense once there's a thorough understanding of the pros and cons.

So, he just says a bunch of bullshit in the book, and saves the truth for the real Rossi's out there huh?

Yeah, I bet. :fing02:

[Brown81]

100_2141.JPG

This seems pretty clear.

In the B photo he even starts by saying : "This Racer...." whereas the other photos he says "This rider".

No professional instructor or even rider I have ever seen or known drags knees on the street. None. Sure, they might get froggy on a turn they know well and throw a knee out. But, not really. Mostly the guys I see doing it are guys that do a trackday every now and then or maybe a class or two here and there.

I have never even read a book where anyone even so much as suggested it. Lee Parks, Keith Code, you name it.

The reason why is because with the position Nick recommends above, any speed limit can easily be doubled with plenty of room to spare, so why bother hanging way off and dragging a knee puck? To me, that is like getting in my Simpson Nomex suit and Simpson helmet to make a run through the hills in my Boxter. It's just overkill is all. I wouldn't even think of wearing knee sliders. I'd feel ridiculous, personally.

Again, just throwing out my opinion. Sorry to disagree.

Things like liability and sport image come to mind here.

Most of the really fast track/race guys I know don't ride on the street much if at all any more, however I have seen plenty of white number plates (with WERA/CCS numbers on them) at Deal's Gap, and let's just say, they don't riding the 'pace.'

Right. He only says it because of sport "image" but in reality he is out dragging knee and hanging off with his friends up the mountains on the weekend right?

Sure. Yep.

Here in the BayArea we have:

Laguna Seca

Sears Point (infineon)

Thunderhill

all pretty close.

Know plenty of dudes with "white number plates". See them riding too. Big Whup.

This means they are decent TRACK riders. In fact. I know a few with these plates who have never been licensed to ride anything on the street. Didn't Elena Myers get hers when she was like 12 years old?

I can promise you there are kids out on the track that will blow you away and have never driven a car. Elena would blow your doors off. That doesn't mean she could survive the street.

Again, you fellas seem to be unable or unwilling to differentiate the track from the street. I don't know why this is? These are two different environments. In fact, you couldn't get any different!

[jeremy556]

Wow, you are very emotional on this subject, and I doubt that a phone call from Nick, telling you he hangs off when he rides on the street would sway you, so no point in continuing discussion.

[Brown81]

Wow, you are very emotional on this subject, and I doubt that a phone call from Nick, telling you he hangs off when he rides on the street would sway you, so no point in continuing discussion.

Emotional? LOL.

Can you go ahead and point out where you thought my post was "very emotional"?

I think this is just a tactic to somehow make mockery of someone who has disagreed with you and posted actual content to back up that disagreement. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I really am. Just trying to post a bit of counterpoint, and I am sorry if you feel you have some kind of authority on the subject and that I or many of the others who have disagreed do not.

But, you are correct, even if Nick himself came on here telling me to hang off and drag knee on the street I still would not. Even though we all know without a doubt he would never in a million years do that. The idea he (a trained professional) would go on an internet forum and try to teach folks how to drag knee on the street is laughable beyond all words of expression. Which is why I find it so bizarre that you would take it upon yourself to do it.

At any rate. I am out of the thread, and think there is plenty of content for grown-ups to make their own decisions. Happy riding!

[timmythecop]

Just fling knee sliders at each other from 20 paces at dawn.

[jeremy556]

Wow, you are very emotional on this subject, and I doubt that a phone call from Nick, telling you he hangs off when he rides on the street would sway you, so no point in continuing discussion.

Emotional? LOL.

Can you go ahead and point out where you thought my post was "very emotional"?

I think this is just a tactic to somehow make mockery of someone who has disagreed with you and posted actual content to back up that disagreement. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I really am. Just trying to post a bit of counterpoint, and I am sorry if you feel you have some kind of authority on the subject and that I or many of the others who have disagreed do not.

But, you are correct, even if Nick himself came on here telling me to hang off and drag knee on the street I still would not. Even though we all know without a doubt he would never in a million years do that. The idea he (a trained professional) would go on an internet forum and try to teach folks how to drag knee on the street is laughable beyond all words of expression. Which is why I find it so bizarre that you would take it upon yourself to do it.

At any rate. I am out of the thread, and think there is plenty of content for grown-ups to make their own decisions. Happy riding!

I can't find a sentence in your post that is not full of condescending, sarcastic, bullshit.

You called Das Bone a liar, then you even admit that the point you were arguing (Nick's opinion), even if you were proven wrong, you wouldn't care.

You are not posting counter points, you go on ranting about 12 year old that are faster than I am, which has nothing to do with what anyone else in the thread is talking about.

[marid2apterbilt]

The OP even states in his post he will be doing a trackday..

Alright, kinda goofy question here. And before I proceed, let me first state that I understand that getting a knee down is not really an indicator of speed or skill level or riding competence. However, that doesn't mean I don't wanna know what it feels like to rail with my knee kissing the tarmac.

Okay, now onto the question...I'll be taking my VFR to a trackday in October. This will be my second trackday but my first on the VFR. My first trackday back in June was done on my wife's SV650. In pictures I was close to getting a knee down, but her bike has been lowered and I was dragging pegs like crazy. With the VFR being a larger bike than the SV, what are my chances of getting a knee down? I'm 5'6". Bike is at stock height with, sadly, stock suspension. Sag is correct. Tires are Pirelli Diablos. Track is Barber Motorsports Park. Will it be physically impossible? Will I have to hang off like Tony Elias to make the magic happen?

So if someone decides to take there knee dragging abilities to the street its there choice, Right or wrong..

[Brown81]

Wow, you are very emotional on this subject, and I doubt that a phone call from Nick, telling you he hangs off when he rides on the street would sway you, so no point in continuing discussion.

Emotional? LOL.

Can you go ahead and point out where you thought my post was "very emotional"?

I think this is just a tactic to somehow make mockery of someone who has disagreed with you and posted actual content to back up that disagreement. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I really am. Just trying to post a bit of counterpoint, and I am sorry if you feel you have some kind of authority on the subject and that I or many of the others who have disagreed do not.

But, you are correct, even if Nick himself came on here telling me to hang off and drag knee on the street I still would not. Even though we all know without a doubt he would never in a million years do that. The idea he (a trained professional) would go on an internet forum and try to teach folks how to drag knee on the street is laughable beyond all words of expression. Which is why I find it so bizarre that you would take it upon yourself to do it.

At any rate. I am out of the thread, and think there is plenty of content for grown-ups to make their own decisions. Happy riding!

I can't find a sentence in your post that is not full of condescending, sarcastic, bullshit.

You called Das Bone a liar, then you even admit that the point you were arguing (Nick's opinion), even if you were proven wrong, you wouldn't care.

You are not posting counter points, you go on ranting about 12 year old that are faster than I am, which has nothing to do with what anyone else in the thread is talking about.

Right. Who's emotional now?

Cheers.

[Das Bone]

So, he just says a bunch of bullshit in the book, and saves the truth for the real Rossi's out there huh?

Yeah, I bet. :excl:

Wow Brown :mad:

I'm always amazed at people that are soooo sure about conversations that they were not even there for....and yeah, you've certainly been keen to toss inuendos and barbs at people. :angry:

Apologies to the OP for all this BS :fing02:

Another perfect example of why I don't post here much anymore....................

[sportrider]

The OP even states in his post he will be doing a trackday..

Alright, kinda goofy question here. And before I proceed, let me first state that I understand that getting a knee down is not really an indicator of speed or skill level or riding competence. However, that doesn't mean I don't wanna know what it feels like to rail with my knee kissing the tarmac.

Okay, now onto the question...I'll be taking my VFR to a trackday in October. This will be my second trackday but my first on the VFR. My first trackday back in June was done on my wife's SV650. In pictures I was close to getting a knee down, but her bike has been lowered and I was dragging pegs like crazy. With the VFR being a larger bike than the SV, what are my chances of getting a knee down? I'm 5'6". Bike is at stock height with, sadly, stock suspension. Sag is correct. Tires are Pirelli Diablos. Track is Barber Motorsports Park. Will it be physically impossible? Will I have to hang off like Tony Elias to make the magic happen?

So if someone decides to take there knee dragging abilities to the street its there choice, Right or wrong..

I agree with that. I was taking care to point out the physical risks and huge dollar costs of exploring the performance envelope on VFR, and the very real risks and costs of doing so on the street should one ever be inclined to try. For the OP, I was hoping to make that choice an informed one. :fing02: