Member Contributer tyrroneous Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 Alright, kinda goofy question here. And before I proceed, let me first state that I understand that getting a knee down is not really an indicator of speed or skill level or riding competence. However, that doesn't mean I don't wanna know what it feels like to rail with my knee kissing the tarmac. Okay, now onto the question...I'll be taking my VFR to a trackday in October. This will be my second trackday but my first on the VFR. My first trackday back in June was done on my wife's SV650. In pictures I was close to getting a knee down, but her bike has been lowered and I was dragging pegs like crazy. With the VFR being a larger bike than the SV, what are my chances of getting a knee down? I'm 5'6". Bike is at stock height with, sadly, stock suspension. Sag is correct. Tires are Pirelli Diablos. Track is Barber Motorsports Park. Will it be physically impossible? Will I have to hang off like Tony Elias to make the magic happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 . . . . . . . . . . getting a knee down is not really an indicator of speed or skill level or riding competence. My son use to go to ridiculous gyrations and hanging off his SV just so he could "get a knee down". Made him a totally dangerous rider to the point my riding buds wouldn't ride with him. Young, dumb, and full of c**. Some people hang off the bike to the point of not being in control of their bike just to get a "knee down". If it happens, fine, if it doesn't, don't worry about it. Control of your machine is what is important, not dragging body parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It's possible. Focus on being smooth, which = fast, then the knee thing will come on it's own. Body position is important! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer YoshiHNS Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 I'm kind of the same position as you. Try as I might I couldn't get my knee down this weekend despite probably 50 good hairpins. But I wasn't concentrating on getting my knee down in the sense of throwing myself over to touch. Just worked on good corner entry speed and hanging off a 'comfortable' amount. End result, my riding felt solid and felt and probably was riding faster by the end of the day. Sure would be nice to get a nick on the pucks, but I'll take the smooth riding over it anyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I find I hang off the bike a fair amount, as I feel I have more control....but I have only touched my boots a few times, never dragged a peg. I don't have knee pucks so if I felt it was close I would pull my knee up to prevent the possibility. I imagine your pegs will fold first, but it should still be possible to get the knee to touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Question for all of you out there (Jeremy) who are super knee draggers: Have you ever clipped an RPM (raised pavement marker - those reflectors glued to the pavement along the yellow lines) with your knee puck? Did it nearly take your leg off? Body height may have something to do with the ease with which you can do it. There's a pic of Jeremy floating around on VFRD somewhere of him getting ready to leave the CROT at the GAP. Good bet he was on his high schools round ball team. He's pretty tall. I'm 6'-2" tall but only have a 31" inseam - that's my excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tyrroneous Posted August 25, 2009 Author Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yeah, I'm in agreement that riding in an extreme manner just to get a knee down is rediculous. And I'm old enough and mature enough to not do that. I guess I was just wondering if the geometry of the VFR (peg height, seat/peg relationship, etc.) would allow a short person to drag a knee assuming good body position? I have gotten toes, pegs, and headers to touch down before, just never a knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmythecop Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I'm 5'9" but most importantly, I have a 29 inch inseam, so I'm not very long legged. I have had no problems lately, but I really owe it to the mighty Michelin Pilot Road 2s. They inspire so much confidence that you can lean forever. If you are postioning you body correctly, you'll get her down in no time. (although our frog-legged friends prolly ground sooner). Dont forget to put your upper body out and in also. You dont have to look like Jamie Whitham or anything, but the weight of your upper body on the inside will make stuff stable. Try to look under the imaginary mirror. some photos to show that you dont have to drag the gas tank to scuff yer pucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 It's not just your body position/pposture but your foot's position on the peg, ball of the foot on the tip of the peg, and almost more importantly what you do with your other leg... this leg is used like a "hook" with the back of your knee (your "kneepit" hahaha) on the edge of the seat, where it changes from horizontal to vertical, and the inside of your knee (or just above it) digging into the tank so you don't slide off... your hands should still be loose on the bars... the inside of my forearm (the one on the same side as the "hook" leg) often rests on the tank... you've got to be fairly spread-legged unlesss your lean angle is extreme... if your lean angle is extreme, you'll possibly even find you're tucking your knee INWARD a little... but yeah... if you're going to drag your knee, you should be hanging off the bike... the more upright the bike, the more you'll have to hang off but the less sense it makes to be dragging your knee.. it's an odd sensation at first and you shouldn't be over anxious to drag your knee, get used to hanging further and further off the bike... I use slicks on my VTEC at the track and off course the extra grip allows me to drag my knee puck all day with total confidence,,, oh, and it's not so smooth a sensation as you might think... the aphalt isn't usually a perfectly plane surface... it's relatively rough and bumpy compared to what you might expect. The object of dragging a knee is not dragging the knee in itself, it serves as a marker so you know when you're getting to the bike's/tyres lean limit, back quite a a bit of air pressure off (ask the tyre guy at the track to adjust your tyre pressure, they usually guide you for free on this one)... this will give you better traction/tracking... the more important thing is to track right... I didn't even scrape the kneepad once at a track day and wasn't concerned as I actually got better times... once you realize how it works, it loses a lot of importance, at least in my case... have fun... PS: hanging off the bike right is more important than dragging the knee, as it is essential to counteracting the centrifugal force whilst still maintaining the tyre's optimal "contact patch" with the asphalt, instead of (dangerously) leaning the bike over more in order to effect said counterbalance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Brown81 Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 No, it's not possible. That's why Dany Pedrosa, Randy Mamola, Casey Stoner and most racers are so unbelievably tall. Just kidding, sorry to be a smartass. :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Das Bone Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 I'll chime in here a bit as I'm 5'7". First off...dragging a knee has nothing to do with height but all to do with body position/technique. For example, many pro racers are a fair bit shorter than any of us that have posted at this point, and they obviously drag knees all the time. Many of the body position points have already been mentioned here so I'll try not to be redundant. Understand that weight shift to the inside does many things for you and dragging a knee is just a result of this. Generally, correct technique if one is trying to run at a quick pace in the most safe way involves "hanging off". Moving your body(correctly) the the inside allows the bike to remain more upright, giving you more ground clearance and traction at a given lean angle as well as aiding the bikes ability to change direction more fluidly as you're able to use different points of input more effectively than "just" CS. Moving your body to the inside incorrectly tends to make things worse than if you were to ride in an upright/traditional style. The reason I mention this is it's crucial to do it correctly for safety as well as the benefits that proper technique will give you. As was mentioned, upper body position is equally important as the lower body. This is where you'll see lots of folks trying to hang off and drag a knee make the most common mistake....crossing up. "Crossing up" is where someone will have their lower body off the bike, but will have their upper body come back across the centerline of the bike...this basically negates any benefits that one would get from moving their lower body off the bike. Just look at some photos from any of the weekend rides at the Gap or out here in the Santa Monica Mtn canyons and you will see this "crossed up" form a lot. Not good! As far as the way to achieve "proper" technique....of course there's different opinions on that so maybe we should hold off on that discussion for now :biggrin: Anyway, here's some pics for example of a 5'7" guy Hope this helps some. _DSC6716.jpg craig8 crop 1.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Brown81 Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 I think I saw this guy in the Santa Monica Mountains: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trace Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Anyway, here's some pics for example of a 5'7" guy Hope this helps some. First, that Das Bone guy is fulla sheeot. He's no motorcyclist, he's a guitar virtuoso and has been known to be in Big Hair Spandex Wearing Metal Bands. Go here: http://www.craigcollinsturner.com/Welcome.html Oops....I guess he really IS a serious rider.....you can go to the second page of Photos, or you can watch his excellent Bike Video as he carves the canyons in SoCal. Second, in the upper picture, I'd probably be target fixating BIGTIME on that guardrail that's poking out there from the right! :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 I think I saw this guy in the Santa Monica Mountains: Oooh bad technique there Doohan... crossing up!! hahaha He's leaned over so far that he can't fit between the bike and the tarmac... hahaha feck me!! You see what I mean about getting to the point where you actually have to tuck your knee inward?? hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFR Capt.Bob Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 Yeah, I'm in agreement that riding in an extreme manner just to get a knee down is rediculous. And I'm old enough and mature enough to not do that. I guess I was just wondering if the geometry of the VFR (peg height, seat/peg relationship, etc.) would allow a short person to drag a knee assuming good body position? I have gotten toes, pegs, and headers to touch down before, just never a knee. I only read to this post to start my reply. I'm 5'8" and have never touched a knee down. But to answer your question in the simplist form. Yes I have seen people my heigth and shorter drag a knee at will on a VFR. Said people have taken multiple track school programs and been riding 2 to 3 times a week on familiar roads. They are more experienced and skilled than I am. Don't go to your track day even thinking about dragging a puck cause your attention is better spent elsewhere. The position of your boots to your pegs affect your ability to turn your knee away from your bike. Your method of controling the bike must be very smooth and predictable. More importantly your lines through the track have to be spot on. Yes you will have to feel comfortable leaning off the bike to touch a knee down. I am currently working on that part of the equation. I'm 45 and yes I still have the need to feel proficient enough on a motorcycle to touch a knee down in a controlled environment. First time I scraped a peg I nearly jumped out of the seat. I also started dirt bike riding again to feel comfortable with a squirming bike that breaks traction constantly to overcome my fear of lost traction. Go on youtube and search for video short seminars on leaning off and dragging a knee. Also study the track you are going to so you can nail your lines right away and not have to figure so many things out. Above all stay relaxed and ride your own ride. Ask on of the track day monitors to have you tag behind him if you wish to go faster than your comfort level is allowing you. JMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFR Capt.Bob Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 I'll chime in here a bit as I'm 5'7". First off...dragging a knee has nothing to do with height but all to do with body position/technique. For example, many pro racers are a fair bit shorter than any of us that have posted at this point, and they obviously drag knees all the time. Many of the body position points have already been mentioned here so I'll try not to be redundant. Understand that weight shift to the inside does many things for you and dragging a knee is just a result of this. Generally, correct technique if one is trying to run at a quick pace in the most safe way involves "hanging off". Moving your body(correctly) the the inside allows the bike to remain more upright, giving you more ground clearance and traction at a given lean angle as well as aiding the bikes ability to change direction more fluidly as you're able to use different points of input more effectively than "just" CS. Moving your body to the inside incorrectly tends to make things worse than if you were to ride in an upright/traditional style. The reason I mention this is it's crucial to do it correctly for safety as well as the benefits that proper technique will give you. As was mentioned, upper body position is equally important as the lower body. This is where you'll see lots of folks trying to hang off and drag a knee make the most common mistake....crossing up. "Crossing up" is where someone will have their lower body off the bike, but will have their upper body come back across the centerline of the bike...this basically negates any benefits that one would get from moving their lower body off the bike. Just look at some photos from any of the weekend rides at the Gap or out here in the Santa Monica Mtn canyons and you will see this "crossed up" form a lot. Not good! As far as the way to achieve "proper" technique....of course there's different opinions on that so maybe we should hold off on that discussion for now :laugh: Anyway, here's some pics for example of a 5'7" guy Hope this helps some. _DSC6716.jpg craig8 crop 1.jpg Yeah, that's the guy! :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Das Bone Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 Anyway, here's some pics for example of a 5'7" guy Hope this helps some. First, that Das Bone guy is fulla sheeot. He's no motorcyclist, he's a guitar virtuoso and has been known to be in Big Hair Spandex Wearing Metal Bands. Go here: http://www.craigcollinsturner.com/Welcome.html Oops....I guess he really IS a serious rider.....you can go to the second page of Photos, or you can watch his excellent Bike Video as he carves the canyons in SoCal. Second, in the upper picture, I'd probably be target fixating BIGTIME on that guardrail that's poking out there from the right! :laugh: Frick'in Tracy :laugh: :goofy: Your "second" comment....look where you want to go not where you're going...ya know :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trace Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Frick'in Tracy :goofy: :laugh: Your "second" comment....look where you want to go not where you're going...ya know :biggrin: Hehehe.....come to think of it, there's not a lot of difference in your (former) spandex pantz and your leathers... As far as lookin' where ya want to do....that always sounds correct and easy...until a guardrail is pokin' out there at ya!! I guess that's why it's "fixation"!! :491: Also....I think we might have bombed your website's server when a dozen guys were watching your Mulholland run. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmythecop Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 or just buy a 2009 wobbleyableson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jeremy556 Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 The real key is foot position. Until you have that down, you will probably not get your knee down without lowsiding on a VFR. Point your inside toe as close as possible 90 degrees from the front of the bike. This will make your knee stick straight out to the side, and put your toe slider in proper position. Try it with the bike on a stand. Upper body position is much more important for actual speed, IMHO. I see a lot of people like the guy with the red X at the top of this forum, with their upper body the wrong way and their knee on the ground. If they would concentrate on upper body position instead, they would go faster with or without dragging a knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jeremy556 Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 Question for all of you out there (Jeremy) who are super knee draggers: Have you ever clipped an RPM (raised pavement marker - those reflectors glued to the pavement along the yellow lines) with your knee puck? Did it nearly take your leg off? Body height may have something to do with the ease with which you can do it. There's a pic of Jeremy floating around on VFRD somewhere of him getting ready to leave the CROT at the GAP. Good bet he was on his high schools round ball team. He's pretty tall. I'm 6'-2" tall but only have a 31" inseam - that's my excuse. Yes, it hurts like HELL. Also clipped them with toe sliders and that hurt even worse. Now I try to take better lines that keep me away from those and/or pull my knee up when I am close to one. I'm only 6'3" but have a 36" inseam. Despite being tall, I was always terrible at basketball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer jeremy556 Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 Never mind. I just read the rest of the thread, not much else to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soichiro Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Question for all of you out there (Jeremy) who are super knee draggers: Have you ever clipped an RPM (raised pavement marker - those reflectors glued to the pavement along the yellow lines) with your knee puck? Did it nearly take your leg off? Body height may have something to do with the ease with which you can do it. There's a pic of Jeremy floating around on VFRD somewhere of him getting ready to leave the CROT at the GAP. Good bet he was on his high schools round ball team. He's pretty tall. I'm 6'-2" tall but only have a 31" inseam - that's my excuse. I'm an inch shorter than Jeremy, inseam 34. It does make it easier. Yes I have clipped on of those markers, hurt like hell. I learned real quick to stay away from the double yellow. I find if I am trying to get a knee down I go much slower. I use 2 positions while hanging off. 1 butt cheek or both. I have seen riders crash and nearly crash just trying to get a knee down instead of focusing on the turn. This pic. is a pefect example. Max lean, textile pants, knee not on the ground, I had to pull it up. At first I had to stretch for it. If I really get a good lean I barely stick my knee out and it drags. Knee way out there. 2008_0703July30192.jpg 8.jpg Just touring, less hanging off. gallery_7288_3389_32486.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Das Bone Posted August 25, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted August 25, 2009 Frick'in Tracy :goofy: :blush: Your "second" comment....look where you want to go not where you're going...ya know :biggrin: Hehehe.....come to think of it, there's not a lot of difference in your (former) spandex pantz and your leathers... :goofy: I know you lusted after that Spandex look :laugh: Well, since we're getting more into the mechanics of the technique....foot position. Completely agree with Jeremy as everything starts with foot position...if that's not right, the rest won't be either. Here's a couple of foot pics(even on the VFR) that I shot for someone else here a while back to show what you're going for. First pic is "basic" sport riding foot position, i.e. not cornering yet. Balls of the feet on the pegs with basically just your toes extending beyond the edge of the peg. This keeps you foot off the ground(clearance) and well as allowing you to have dexterity with peg input. Shot from the seated position looking down. This shot is what Jeremy was describing with your heel and foot essentially being perpedicular to the bike. You always want to be set body-wise prior to corner entry so this is the point that you shift your foot position while simutaneously moving your body to the inside. 100_0465.JPG 100_0471.JPG So, start with this(feets) first off :cool: Oh yeah, as far as hitting bots dots markers in the road....yeah have hit them, even cracked one of my sliders once :blink: You definitely know when you've hit one :laugh: Mostly though it's just a matter of pulling your knee in a bit if you think you might be close...better to alter your lines to avoid getting that close :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 That foot thing gets tougher if you have, let's say, size 13 feet... :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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