Can Short People Get A Knee Down?

[Guest]

I've never seen any one who is even remotely fast doing whats in the last pic with there foot.

Wow - and your toe doesn't drag? I've been playing with jamming the SOLE of my boot up against the bike to keep my toe from dragging (which it does sometimes even when I think I'm on the ball of my foot) - and that feels awkward as hell. And I don't even have big feet. Size 9. :cool:

Frick'in Tracy :goofy:

:blush:

Your "second" comment....look where you want to go not where you're going...ya know :biggrin:

Hehehe.....come to think of it, there's not a lot of difference in your (former) spandex pantz and your leathers...

:goofy: I know you lusted after that Spandex look :laugh:

Well, since we're getting more into the mechanics of the technique....foot position.

Completely agree with Jeremy as everything starts with foot position...if that's not right, the rest won't be either.

Here's a couple of foot pics(even on the VFR) that I shot for someone else here a while back to show what you're going for.

First pic is "basic" sport riding foot position, i.e. not cornering yet. Balls of the feet on the pegs with basically just your toes extending beyond the edge of the peg. This keeps you foot off the ground(clearance) and well as allowing you to have dexterity with peg input. Shot from the seated position looking down.

This shot is what Jeremy was describing with your heel and foot essentially being perpedicular to the bike. You always want to be set body-wise prior to corner entry so this is the point that you shift your foot position while simutaneously moving your body to the inside.

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So, start with this(feets) first off :cool:

Oh yeah, as far as hitting bots dots markers in the road....yeah have hit them, even cracked one of my sliders once :blink: You definitely know when you've hit one :beer: Mostly though it's just a matter of pulling your knee in a bit if you think you might be close...better to alter your lines to avoid getting that close :cool:

[jeremy556]

I've never seen any one who is even remotely fast doing whats in the last pic with there foot.

Ever heard of Freddie Spencer? :biggrin:

[Tightwad]

I got my knee down today, and my hip, shoulder and head! Don't do it that way!

[Trace]

I've never seen any one who is even remotely fast doing whats in the last pic with there foot.

Ever heard of Freddie Spencer? :biggrin:

Or you might want to have one of your remotely fast people try following Das Bone (who has been to that Freddie guy's school FOUR times) up Mulholland Drive and on into the canyons!

[Guest]

Freddies a drunk and he doesn't ride like that pic either. You seriously ride with your foot and knee 85-90 degrees pointing straight out like that pic shows? I'd say that I'm kinda fast and I can't see how I could twist around that much or ever need to. I only turn my foot about 45 degrees, but I only have to stick my knee out a few inches to touch the ground.

[Das Bone]

I've never seen any one who is even remotely fast doing whats in the last pic with there foot.

Well, I do believe there are quite a few guys on this very board that are "remotely fast" that do exactly that with THEIR feet.

If you want to get your knee out to give you the most weight transfer this is exactly what you need to do...and yes, this is exactly what was taught at FS.

It's a technique, and it has very specific reasons behind it. If you're not interested, then fine. Sorry, but your statement tends to indicate to me atleast that you know not where you speak or, at a minimum, aren't willing to entertain something new to you...your loss.

[toddulu]

Das Bone's been on this forum more in the past 2 days then he has in the past 2 years!!! :biggrin: :laugh: :beer:

[Guest]

I've never seen any one who is even remotely fast doing whats in the last pic with there foot.

Well, I do believe there are quite a few guys on this very board that are "remotely fast" that do exactly that with THEIR feet.

If you want to get your knee out to give you the most weight transfer this is exactly what you need to do...and yes, this is exactly what was taught at FS.

It's a technique, and it has very specific reasons behind it. If you're not interested, then fine. Sorry, but your statement tends to indicate to me atleast that you know not where you speak or, at a minimum, aren't willing to entertain something new to you...your loss.

Why do you need to put your knee out 85 to 90 degrees then? I've been lapped by some very, very fast people and I've never seen them doing that when they go by.

[TankSlapper]

It's pretty easy to get a knee down with a short bike.... :biggrin:

[jeremy556]

Using the toes pointed near 90 degrees technique does not mean your knee stays sticking out like that. Once it touches down, as you increase lean angle, you being the knee back in. I find that if I am lazy about it and don't point my toe enough, I end up wearing the out the toe of my boot where there is no toe slider, instead of the easy to replace toe slider. I think that this also increases boot ground clearance, which is helpful with the VFR's low pegs.

[Das Bone]

Why do you need to put your knee out 85 to 90 degrees then?

As far as this comment from your previous post:

" I'd say that I'm kinda fast and I can't see how I could twist around that much or ever need to".....I'd suggest stretching

And before I try and answer your question from this post, answer this simple, straight forward question for me.....what do you think is the purpose/reason for "hanging off" a bike? What's the goal that you're trying to achieve by hanging off?

[jeremy556]

And before I try and answer your question from this post, answer this simple, straight forward question for me.....what do you think is the purpose/reason for "hanging off" a bike? What's the goal that you're trying to achieve by hanging off?

There are hints in the picture that Timmy posted :beer:

[Brown81]

.....what do you think is the purpose/reason for "hanging off" a bike? What's the goal that you're trying to achieve by hanging off?

Trying to shave time off your laps?

I tend to agree with sportrider:

Yes, you can do it, but I'd save it for the track, with a track bike. Learning the correct technique on a VFR can be awfully expensive when you toss it making mistakes, and down right dangerous if you hit some immoveable or oncoming object. Quite frankly, knee down is exploring the performance envelope, and there's not a lot of margin of error left when you try it. You must do a lot right, including proper entry speed, proper vision, relaxed grip, proper throttle control, and proper body position, to name a few, to make it through safely. I agree with what others have noted, the knee down achievement is more a result of riding correctly than a result you can force.

Hanging way off with a knee down is not the ideal body position on the street, imo. One can easily carry an insane amount of speed on the street never even coming close to draggin a knee.

Also, imo, the optimum street riding body position is a far more upright "covering position". I guess if you want to look cool for the camera, and have a set of turns that you KNOW are clean, it's cool to drag a knee on the street for fun I guess?

But aside from Freddie Spencer (who I suspect is teaching these techniques for track riding, not street riding) I can't think of too many professionals who teach this type of body position for the street. Track riding is totally different than street riding.

Just my opinion. :beer:

[jeremy556]

Hanging off the bike allows you to go through a given corner at a given speed while using less lean angle and increasing all of your safety margins. Once you have the technique correct, other than looking like "Ricky Racer," I see no downside.

[Brown81]

Hanging off the bike allows you to go through a given corner at a given speed while using less lean angle and increasing all of your safety margins. Once you have the technique correct, other than looking like "Ricky Racer," I see no downside.

I do not believe it increases ALL your safety margins at all. It actually decreases some of them. Your sight lines are diminished with your head by the mirror. This alone is about as important as anything in fast street riding. Head needs to be much higher. Your control of the bars are diminished a LOT. No way hanging off improves control of the bars. If it did, than every motorcyclist would be doing it, including flat track racers who do the complete opposite.

Gravel, deer, oncoming cars, these are the realities of the street. Hanging off does nothing to deal with these obstacles. It actually makes it harder to deal with them.

Your contention is really only true for the track. Well, road track anyway. Street riders would benefit from an understanding of what hanging off does, as well as an understanding of why flat track and motoX riders do and why. The optimum street riding position is somewhere in between all these styles.

Again, just my opinion. But I think you would find even Freddie Spenser would agree. Even if he doesn't, Nick Ienatsch certainly does.

[jeremy556]

I'll concede the visibility part. In some corners, specifically blind right handers, I typically don't move my head down and inside to increase my sight line.

I disagree on control of the bars - I can do anything at the bars while hanging off that I can when bolt upright, no difference to me.

Gravel, deer, oncoming cars - when hanging off, I have more room to tighten my line to a point that would cause a lowside if sitting upright, can still go wider, accelerate, and brake just as well as upright.

[Brown81]

I'll concede the visibility part. In some corners, specifically blind right handers, I typically don't move my head down and inside to increase my sight line.

I disagree on control of the bars - I can do anything at the bars while hanging off that I can when bolt upright, no difference to me.

Gravel, deer, oncoming cars - when hanging off, I have more room to tighten my line to a point that would cause a lowside if sitting upright, can still go wider, accelerate, and brake just as well as upright.

Lowsiding is a product of speed too fast for the conditions, not of lack of hanging off. If one is on the street and incapable of tightening their line in any turn without hanging way off and dragging a knee, then I encourage everyone on this board to intellectualize whether or not that is prudent street riding. Believe me, I am not talking about riding like a grandma here. I don't think I have ever come even close to the speed limit when out in the mountains, lol.

As for control of the bars. I can't get my head around that, but I'll take your word for it.

At any rate, by all accounts you are a good rider. We can agree to disagree. I don't mean to sound preachy, I just felt this discussion needed a counterpoint. Everyone can decide for themselves the best way to ride on the street.

[Guest]

Ride within your style and limits of feeling safe and comfortable. Don't do something because it looks cool or Valentino Rossi does it. If that were the case, we'd all be wearing two ear rings.

My best riding partner and I vehemently disagree about where on the road we should ride. I ride about 18-24" right of the center line. He rides about 18" from the edge of the pavement. We each have our reasons. I can say that us wanting two completely different parts of the road has saved our asses on many ocassions. It makes for some close safe riding. Point is, I'm comfortable where I ride, he's comfortable where he rides.

Jeremy rides with his knees on the pavement, Brown81 doesn't. Each to their own.

[Guest]

Why do you need to put your knee out 85 to 90 degrees then?

As far as this comment from your previous post:

" I'd say that I'm kinda fast and I can't see how I could twist around that much or ever need to".....I'd suggest stretching

And before I try and answer your question from this post, answer this simple, straight forward question for me.....what do you think is the purpose/reason for "hanging off" a bike? What's the goal that you're trying to achieve by hanging off?

Hanging off the bike moves the center of gravity of the bike allowing me to use less lean angle. On my F2 if I did that I would run out of ground clearance before the apex. All I'm trying to say is that picture looks overly exaggerated in my opinion and you look like the rider (you?) is straining to get a knee down on the street.

[Das Bone]

Why do you need to put your knee out 85 to 90 degrees then?

As far as this comment from your previous post:

" I'd say that I'm kinda fast and I can't see how I could twist around that much or ever need to".....I'd suggest stretching

And before I try and answer your question from this post, answer this simple, straight forward question for me.....what do you think is the purpose/reason for "hanging off" a bike? What's the goal that you're trying to achieve by hanging off?

Hanging off the bike moves the center of gravity of the bike allowing me to use less lean angle. On my F2 if I did that I would run out of ground clearance before the apex. All I'm trying to say is that picture looks overly exaggerated in my opinion and you look like the rider (you?) is straining to get a knee down on the street.

OK, not quite sure but it seems like your first and second sentences contradict? Probably my misunderstanding of what you're saying.

The point I was trying to make and that I think you seem to agree with from the first sentence is that yes, the main point of using a hanging off style(hate that phrase actually :cool: ) is weight transfer to the inside allowing the bike to remain more upright, yes? As we've talked about and seem to agree on, this gives one the benefit of less bike lean angle meaning you've got more clearance, more traction, which means a larger safety margin. This is all good to my way of thinking. This is not even getting into the additional control benefits that result from this technique, i.e. style of riding

So to get back to your foot position issue... by positioning your foot the way that I showed, the knee gets kicked out farther towards the inside which means more weight further inside than if you were to keep your foot at a 45 degree angle and your knee out a couple of inches as you've said you do.

So, if the point is weight transfer to the inside as we seem to agree upon...then the reasoning behind this further rotated foot position should be clear.

As for your comment about me straining to get a knee down...not at all. That's simply the result of the foot positioning that I use which does indeed kick the knee out creating that "triangle of light" through the inside leg. Whether you choose to take that at face value is your choice of course, but I can definitely say, I'm not straining to get the knee down at all ( that's not the purpose anyway) but simply a result of my personal riding technique.

[JBAXX]

Ok, since we're on the subject...

I find that as I hang off (usually 1 cheek off the seat, move head to inside mirror/grip area, point knee out) I find myself "hanging on" to the bars as I carry more lean angle. Not good for steering, but I'm working on it.

How about some advice on anchoring, keeping the hands light, and peg-weighting.

[jeremy556]

Ok, since we're on the subject...

I find that as I hang off (usually 1 cheek off the seat, move head to inside mirror/grip area, point knee out) I find myself "hanging on" to the bars as I carry more lean angle. Not good for steering, but I'm working on it.

How about some advice on anchoring, keeping the hands light, and peg-weighting.

Interesting, I find the more I hang off, the better the controls feel and the more I am relaxed on the bars.

Before you start moving your body around on the bike, be "standing" on the pegs, so that you are barely, if at all, touching the seat with your butt. You should be able to move your body around on the bike with your hands off the handlebars, because that is more or less what you will have to be doing to be able to move around smoothly.

Try concentrating on making sure to move your shoulders inside and down along with your head, and pay special attention to resting your outside arm on the tank, and keeping your inside arm loose. Make sure your outside knee is firmly planted in the tank to brace yourself under braking. Remember to do all of these things before you begin your turn.

I keep most of my weight on the inside peg from braking up until the apex, then keep weight on the outside peg from the apex on. I'm not exactly sure on the physics and reasoning behind this method, as I read it in a book at some point and have just always used it. There was some explanation about maximizing traction and moving the center of gravity.

[Jon28]

That foot thing gets tougher if you have, let's say, size 13 feet... :blush:

I'm right there with you bro! I can't seem to hide my boots enough when cornering! I used to worry about touching my knee down....now I could careless. Unless I'm on a track....it really doesn't matter. I focus on proper body position, throttle control, and most importantly being smooth.

Smooth is fast, and fast is smooth.

[jeremy556]

That foot thing gets tougher if you have, let's say, size 13 feet... :blush:

I'm right there with you bro! I can't seem to hide my boots enough when cornering! I used to worry about touching my knee down....now I could careless. Unless I'm on a track....it really doesn't matter. I focus on proper body position, throttle control, and most importantly being smooth.

Smooth is fast, and fast is smooth.

Shoe size shouldn't make that big of a difference, just put your toes on the pegs, and the rest of your foot wherever it fits. The heel guards kind of end up in the middle of the sole of my foot.

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

[vfrcapn]

A lot of good points here. In these pics it suggests hanging off without the upper body lowered is best (39 degree angle)? The track days I've attended the instructors tried to get me crouched down on the tank and hanging off, head where the mirror would be. Any opinions?