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Can Short People Get A Knee Down?


tyrroneous

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A lot of good points here. In these pics it suggests hanging off without the upper body lowered is best (39 degree angle)? The track days I've attended the instructors tried to get me crouched down on the tank and hanging off, head where the mirror would be. Any opinions?

I always try to combine image 3&4, hanging off and upper body low to keep the COG as low and as far inside as possible. That should put the Yellow/Clear circle representing the COG at about the same vertical position as picture 4 (between the fairing and fender) and same horizontal as picture three (to the inside of the headlight). Maybe get something like 36 degrees of lean angle for the same speed.

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A lot of good points here. In these pics it suggests hanging off without the upper body lowered is best (39 degree angle)? The track days I've attended the instructors tried to get me crouched down on the tank and hanging off, head where the mirror would be. Any opinions?

I always try to combine image 3&4, hanging off and upper body low to keep the COG as low and as far inside as possible. That should put the Yellow/Clear circle representing the COG at about the same vertical position as picture 4 (between the fairing and fender) and same horizontal as picture three (to the inside of the headlight). Maybe get something like 36 degrees of lean angle for the same speed.

Thanks, that's what I suspected. Now to get out and practice some more. Never had a knee down myself but it'll happen when it does, probably should get out for some more track days.

One thing that does concern me is I have the rear of the VFR raised up and I'm using some higher rearsets. If I get to the point of dragging a peg, or knee, I don't know if that would take me beyond the tire's limits. I guess it's a feel thing and I don't have a feel for the limits, at least in my street riding.

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Thanks, that's what I suspected. Now to get out and practice some more. Never had a knee down myself but it'll happen when it does, probably should get out for some more track days.

One thing that does concern me is I have the rear of the VFR raised up and I'm using some higher rearsets. If I get to the point of dragging a peg, or knee, I don't know if that would take me beyond the tire's limits. I guess it's a feel thing and I don't have a feel for the limits, at least in my street riding.

Seriously, practice in the garage with the bike on a stand, it helps.

I have the rear end raised as well. You will not exceed modern sport tire's capabilities with a VFR's ground clearance, even with every aftermarket goodie and modification. You will be dragging knees, pegs, headers, stands, and fairings (in about that order) and crashing, long before you run out of tire. :blush:

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KneeDown7.jpg

A lot of good points here. In these pics it suggests hanging off without the upper body lowered is best (39 degree angle)? The track days I've attended the instructors tried to get me crouched down on the tank and hanging off, head where the mirror would be. Any opinions?

I always feel the most comfortable/stable/fastest when I am focused on the above technique. Something else I also try to do is "push" my inside shoulder forward.

5S7E3544.jpg

5S7E3072.jpg

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.....what do you think is the purpose/reason for "hanging off" a bike? What's the goal that you're trying to achieve by hanging off?

Trying to shave time off your laps?

I tend to agree with sportrider:

Yes, you can do it, but I'd save it for the track, with a track bike. Learning the correct technique on a VFR can be awfully expensive when you toss it making mistakes, and down right dangerous if you hit some immoveable or oncoming object. Quite frankly, knee down is exploring the performance envelope, and there's not a lot of margin of error left when you try it. You must do a lot right, including proper entry speed, proper vision, relaxed grip, proper throttle control, and proper body position, to name a few, to make it through safely. I agree with what others have noted, the knee down achievement is more a result of riding correctly than a result you can force.

Hanging way off with a knee down is not the ideal body position on the street, imo. One can easily carry an insane amount of speed on the street never even coming close to draggin a knee.

Also, imo, the optimum street riding body position is a far more upright "covering position". I guess if you want to look cool for the camera, and have a set of turns that you KNOW are clean, it's cool to drag a knee on the street for fun I guess?

But aside from Freddie Spencer (who I suspect is teaching these techniques for track riding, not street riding) I can't think of too many professionals who teach this type of body position for the street. Track riding is totally different than street riding.

Just my opinion. :beer:

I agree with Brown. . .. :laugh:

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.....what do you think is the purpose/reason for "hanging off" a bike? What's the goal that you're trying to achieve by hanging off?

Trying to shave time off your laps?

I tend to agree with sportrider:

Yes, you can do it, but I'd save it for the track, with a track bike. Learning the correct technique on a VFR can be awfully expensive when you toss it making mistakes, and down right dangerous if you hit some immoveable or oncoming object. Quite frankly, knee down is exploring the performance envelope, and there's not a lot of margin of error left when you try it. You must do a lot right, including proper entry speed, proper vision, relaxed grip, proper throttle control, and proper body position, to name a few, to make it through safely. I agree with what others have noted, the knee down achievement is more a result of riding correctly than a result you can force.

Hanging way off with a knee down is not the ideal body position on the street, imo. One can easily carry an insane amount of speed on the street never even coming close to draggin a knee.

Also, imo, the optimum street riding body position is a far more upright "covering position". I guess if you want to look cool for the camera, and have a set of turns that you KNOW are clean, it's cool to drag a knee on the street for fun I guess?

But aside from Freddie Spencer (who I suspect is teaching these techniques for track riding, not street riding) I can't think of too many professionals who teach this type of body position for the street. Track riding is totally different than street riding.

Just my opinion. :beer:

I agree with Brown. . .. :laugh:

I'm no expert on technique but till I started bring my heal up and pointing my toe out it never happened.

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Well since it seems everyone is posting Race bike pics and only a few are posting VFR pics knee dragging Let me add a few, Both on and off the track...

As for the Big feet discussion I have size 13 and very rarely drag a toe. I have also seen Jeremy's boots (WOW) but he is a lot more comfident and able than I am..

On the street..

photo1xgs.jpg

Another, Knee is almost touching..

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At the Track.. The bike was real close to Low siding. Knee down, then drug the peg for a second and the Bars started to oscillate.. Note foot position and the fact my knee isnt pointing way out there.. Note in the sequence not shown Here, I moved my upper boddy more to the inside once the bars started to Oscilate and it was all good again,,

image001olm.jpg

another track pic.. Note foot position, Yes I put my knee way out there then bring it in as a feeler guage as lean angle increases... Also note lean angle of the SV650 behind me.. Im using a good bit less lean..

375624906506b6b2fa9co.jpg

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AGV Sport Forza 2pc, 2yrs old and holding up well. Good suit for the Money..

Gap trash wears a 1pc and has tested it in the Asphalt Luge..

yea, i noticed his too. Mine is a 1 piece in the same colour as you have. seems like a lota product for cheap. why did you loose the writing on the front, other than the awful looks? scratch your tank?

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AGV Sport Forza 2pc, 2yrs old and holding up well. Good suit for the Money..

Gap trash wears a 1pc and has tested it in the Asphalt Luge..

yea, i noticed his too. Mine is a 1 piece in the same colour as you have. seems like a lota product for cheap. why did you loose the writing on the front, other than the awful looks? scratch your tank?

Didnt like the looks. If it wasnt such a pain to remove I would remove them all.. Logo should have went on the back, not the front IMHO..

And yes.. Lotsa protection for cheap, There are several schools that offer them for there students and I have yet to see a seam fail on them.. I have seen many rashed up examples hanging out at Deals Gap..

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If weighting the inside peg, foot position and all that stuff is so "important" why have the MotoGP riders been doing the foot dangle under hard braking and turn in for a few years? Sure foot position is important, but sticking your knee and foot out at 90 degrees at turn it doesn't do anything for you IMO. It's all about your personal technique. How many of you would look at B. Spies's style and say he is doing it wrong if you didn't know who he is and how fast he is? There is no "right" way.

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If weighting the inside peg, foot position and all that stuff is so "important" why have the MotoGP riders been doing the foot dangle under hard braking and turn in for a few years? Sure foot position is important, but sticking your knee and foot out at 90 degrees at turn it doesn't do anything for you IMO. It's all about your personal technique. How many of you would look at B. Spies's style and say he is doing it wrong if you didn't know who he is and how fast he is? There is no "right" way.

Good question...

Maybe there having a relapse back to there Dirt track Days ? :blush:

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If weighting the inside peg, foot position and all that stuff is so "important" why have the MotoGP riders been doing the foot dangle under hard braking and turn in for a few years? Sure foot position is important, but sticking your knee and foot out at 90 degrees at turn it doesn't do anything for you IMO. It's all about your personal technique. How many of you would look at B. Spies's style and say he is doing it wrong if you didn't know who he is and how fast he is? There is no "right" way.

I have heard of the foot dangle thing but never really seen it, I tried searching youtube but can't find it (I don't watch the races), can you give an example? I had assumed it was done under hard braking before turning, I can't imagine how they can move their body around very well with one foot off the peg. Most of the on-board videos I did see, showed them with a knee stuck out far, then retracted as lean angle increased.

I looked up some videos of Ben Spies as well, and it appears he does exactly as we have been saying, in fact he seems to be particularly exaggerated, with his entire body hung so far off, by mid turn, his knee is almost back straight forward and he is nearly dragging a hip and elbow. Here is a screen grab from the first video that came up.

benspies.jpg

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If weighting the inside peg, foot position and all that stuff is so "important" why have the MotoGP riders been doing the foot dangle under hard braking and turn in for a few years? Sure foot position is important, but sticking your knee and foot out at 90 degrees at turn it doesn't do anything for you IMO. It's all about your personal technique. How many of you would look at B. Spies's style and say he is doing it wrong if you didn't know who he is and how fast he is? There is no "right" way.

I have heard of the foot dangle thing but never really seen it, I tried searching youtube but can't find it (I don't watch the races), can you give an example? I had assumed it was done under hard braking before turning, I can't imagine how they can move their body around very well with one foot off the peg. Most of the on-board videos I did see, showed them with a knee stuck out far, then retracted as lean angle increased.

I looked up some videos of Ben Spies as well, and it appears he does exactly as we have been saying, in fact he seems to be particularly exaggerated, with his entire body hung so far off, by mid turn, his knee is almost back straight forward and he is nearly dragging a hip and elbow. Here is a screen grab from the first video that came up.

benspies.jpg

I agree, that pic looks pretty much the same technique wise to the pics we've posted :blush:

gallery_326_40_3976841.jpg

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I'm really surprised that we're even having to go this far with this discussion as some of the negative posters obviously watch racing and obviously see the pro's using much the same basic techniques(with personal variations of course) as we've been talking about. There's reason they do what they do the way they do it.

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I have heard of the foot dangle thing but never really seen it, I tried searching youtube but can't find it (I don't watch the races), can you give an example?

at 13 seconds

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I have heard of the foot dangle thing but never really seen it, I tried searching youtube but can't find it (I don't watch the races), can you give an example?

at 13 seconds

That is odd; does he do that all the time? I have done that a couple times when I got a cramp :blush:

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I have heard of the foot dangle thing but never really seen it, I tried searching youtube but can't find it (I don't watch the races), can you give an example?

at 13 seconds

That is odd; does he do that all the time? I have done that a couple times when I got a cramp :blush:

Yes, he does it on any corner where there isn't another corner close after. He said he started doing it almost by accident (in 2005, IIRC?), and it felt 'so right' that he just continued to do it. Other riders saw him, and in case he was getting some small but critical advantage, started copying him. He said recently he was going to charge these guys €1 per corner for using his move! If there is any advantage to this technique (other than mental), it would be that it gets the centre of mass just fractionally further in towards the corner, due to the weight of the leg. I reckon for most people, the lessening of control would negate that. But hey - flatrackers and motocrossers take their inside foot off the peg to slide the bike, so I guess once you're used to it, it just becomes a habit.

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I'm really surprised that we're even having to go this far with this discussion as some of the negative posters obviously watch racing and obviously see the pro's using much the same basic techniques(with personal variations of course) as we've been talking about. There's reason they do what they do the way they do it.

I really wasn't trying to be negative in my prior posts, sorry if I came across that way. I was just trying to get the point across that correct body position is from personal technique and experience. I guess if you want to put your knee and toe out 90 degrees at turn in you can, but IMO there is no reason to. When I was first starting to ride fast on the track I was doing the same thing, but as I've progressed in pace if my knee goes out more then 45 degrees I know I'm doing something wrong. You have tons of lean angle left in your pics. All I know is I don't do that, I win some races from time to time and I very, very rarely crash. (besides being smooth, that’s my goal every time I ride :D)

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I'm really surprised that we're even having to go this far with this discussion as some of the negative posters obviously watch racing and obviously see the pro's using much the same basic techniques(with personal variations of course) as we've been talking about. There's reason they do what they do the way they do it.

I really wasn't trying to be negative in my prior posts, sorry if I came across that way. I was just trying to get the point across that correct body position is from personal technique and experience. I guess if you want to put your knee and toe out 90 degrees at turn in you can, but IMO there is no reason to. When I was first starting to ride fast on the track I was doing the same thing, but as I've progressed in pace if my knee goes out more then 45 degrees I know I'm doing something wrong. You have tons of lean angle left in your pics. All I know is I don't do that, I win some races from time to time and I very, very rarely crash. (besides being smooth, that’s my goal every time I ride :D)

Fair enough, but as you've alluded to..everyone's style/technique can and will be different. I'm of the school that weight transfer is extremely important in terms of maintaining less bike lean angle which equals safety....and that's a major part of the reason that as you stated that I've got tons of lean angle left in the pics... EXACTLY!!!! That's a good thing in my mind....especially on the street.

As we've also talked about in this thread, as the bike's lean angle increases the knee is obviously forced more inward.

This thread started with the OP asking about dragging knees being a shorter person. Being shorter myself :blush: , I felt like I could add some relevant info.

Jeremy mentioned the foot position aspect, which atleast he and I agree is the basis for all "correct" body position. So, I posted up a couple of foot postion pics as a basis for someone to start working on their body position. Your first post basically said that you'd never seen anyone fast ride like that. OK, fine...but obviously there are some pics here of guys riding pretty quickly using that basic foot concept.

You also said that there is no single "correct" technique but simply variations depending on each persons personal style etc. I agree...so I guess my question would be why bag on what Jeremy and I were saying...after all what we do works for us as well as many others. I think we've explained the rational behind our respective technique's pretty clearly.

Why not post up some pics of yourself with your personal riding style and explain what you do and why you do it? Maybe we can all learn something more in the process :fing02:

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