Fork Spring/oil Replacement

[turtlecreek]

knowing that the gap ride is coming soon and that most of you are going to be 'encouraging' me to go faster, i think i need to replace my springs and fork oil. the 'silver ghost' is a great ride, but she was never made to haul an american that is as large as two japanese folks!

I have read over all the posts and didn't see anything on this:

when replacing the front springs, it seems as if the hard part is getting the oil out of the tubes. this 'requires' you to remove the forks.

i was hoping it might be a little easier (i am about as lazy as they come)

why can't you use a pump/syringe and put a tube down in the fork from the top and simply suck the oil out?

you can still lift the front end up and pump the forks to get circulation, but if you don't have to remove everything, it seems alot easier.

has anyone tried this? if not, why not? does anyone see any major issues with doing it this way?

open the top, pull out the spring, suck out the oil (while pumping forks), replace the oil (while pumping forks), put in new springs, close the top and viola!!

i am sure this wont work as someone surely would have done it, but then, I tend to be lazier than most :goofy:

[Guest]

I think it all depends on how badly you want to get any metal wear bits, gunk, and all the old oil out. If you haven't changed the oil since you purchased it in 03, I can pretty well guarantee that stuff has settled and you won't be able to just suck it out. Also, it will be pretty hard to accurately measure the replacement oil level in the forks with them on the bike, since it should be done vertical with fork collapsed, spring out. You could just dump it the same volume in each fork leg I guess.

IMO, I think taking them off and flushing with Kerosene and hanging to dry is the way to go. It really doesn't take that much more time.

[VFR4Lee]

We took the legs off and the springs out and pumped them up and down until the old oil was all out.

Then put in some fresh oil and pump some more to get the crap out.

Then reassembled. The old oil was dark, the new stuff nearly clear. :goofy:

For a heavier guy, you probably want stiffer springs. :thumbsup:

[vfrjim2002]

Just finished doing an oil change - spring replacement. Getting all the oil out takes a bit of time.

EDIT Step 0.5 I know it appears in the service manual, but I'll repeat it: you need to be certain to loosen the fork caps BEFORE you remove the fork legs.

Step 1. Remove the legs. (I can't imagine an effective procedure without doing this)

Step 2. Remove the cap and springs. (This is easier if you run the preload adjuster all the way out. After the cap is out of the leg, you'll need to run the adjuster in a bit to get a 14mm wrench on the lower section of the preload adjuster to separate the cap from the damper rod)

Step 3. Dump the fork leg out. Pump a number times.

Step 4. Cycle the damper rod several times. Let the leg sit upright for minute or so. Dump the leg again.

Step 5. Repeat step 4 until the damper rod offers no resistance to pushing or pulling and no more oil comes out of the fork. (This took several iterations)

Step 6. Refill.

Step 7. Cycle the fork tube a number of times.

Step 8. Cycle the damper rod a number of times. (Until you're certain you feel uniform resistance through compression and rebound strokes.

Step 9. Set the oil level. (see the FSM - several options here depending on spring choice)

Step 10. Reinstall springs and fork cap (be sure to get the spring in the correct way and washer/spacer sequence right)

[Dutchy]

I took them off this afternoon and will get back to them tomorrow............

#3rd Gens have it easy with a drain plug at the bottom of each leg. My 4th had the metal extrusions (look at the top of the leg on the right) but Mr Honda decided not to drill....

[Guest]

Taking them off makes it much easier to work on them. Not just for the settled bits of worn stuff, but for the purpose of pumping the damper rod and getting all the oil out of it as well.

I will say, however, that it was more time consuming getting them off than I thought it would be, what with the linked brakes, the removal of all the brake line brackets & junctions, the horn was in the way, yada yada yada...

I just did mine yesterday, wish I read this before hand - it would have given me ideas on how to do what I did. At no time did I ever feel the resistance gone from the damper rod, even after draining and pumping it MANY times... I thought that was odd. Once I did feel the resistance go away just for like the last inch or so of movement... but just like any fluid change, there is pretty much always going to be a little fluid you can't get. Regular service with fresh fluid is more important than getting that last cc or two out.

Anyone ever experiment with non-stock oil weight?

[vfrjim2002]

Taking them off makes it much easier to work on them. Not just for the settled bits of worn stuff, but for the purpose of pumping the damper rod and getting all the oil out of it as well.

I will say, however, that it was more time consuming getting them off than I thought it would be, what with the linked brakes, the removal of all the brake line brackets & junctions, the horn was in the way, yada yada yada...

I just did mine yesterday, wish I read this before hand - it would have given me ideas on how to do what I did. At no time did I ever feel the resistance gone from the damper rod, even after draining and pumping it MANY times... I thought that was odd. Once I did feel the resistance go away just for like the last inch or so of movement... but just like any fluid change, there is pretty much always going to be a little fluid you can't get. Regular service with fresh fluid is more important than getting that last cc or two out.

Anyone ever experiment with non-stock oil weight?

FWIW. After considerable putzing with mine I managed to get the damper rods completely freed up. Then I put 5 ounces or so of new oil in each leg, cycled them to load the dampers and then drained them again. I can't really say whether that made a difference, but it made me feel better. As to oil. I installed racetech .95 springs with just under 10mm of baseline preload and used Maxima 7wt oil with the level set at 120mm. (I bought the springs from Aftershocks and Phil recommended 8mm of preload and a 125mm oil level. At the next service I'll replace seals and bushings and increase baseline preload to 15mm.) I also raised the tubes in the clamps about 3mm when I put them back in. I haven't had a chance to push things very hard, but my initial impressions have been very positive. The suspension is still pretty supple and seems to dive quite a bit less on the brakes.

[Chev]

Since no one mentioned it, and I am a bit OCD, I will.

After I dump the old oil out completely, I fill the leg back up and cycle through the full travel several times.

Then, I dump the fluid out again. You do not have to waste much fluid and I feel a little better about there being less little bits of stuff left in the final product.

I tend to run some fresh oil into a motor after it was "drained" too. To flush out whatever sediment was sitting around the drain plug.

[turtlecreek]

Since no one mentioned it, and I am a bit OCD, I will.

After I dump the old oil out completely, I fill the leg back up and cycle through the full travel several times.

Then, I dump the fluid out again. You do not have to waste much fluid and I feel a little better about there being less little bits of stuff left in the final product.

I tend to run some fresh oil into a motor after it was "drained" too. To flush out whatever sediment was sitting around the drain plug.

:wheel:

that is exactly what i intend to do it seemed the most logical way to get anything out of mine. i bought mine used (2003 bought in 2006 with 4k on it) and have put another 4k on it. not sure if that is a lot of miles with no change of fork oil or not, but i wanted to be sure and do it right the first time i did it for a base line.

[Guest]

FWIW. After considerable putzing with mine I managed to get the damper rods completely freed up. Then I put 5 ounces or so of new oil in each leg, cycled them to load the dampers and then drained them again. I can't really say whether that made a difference, but it made me feel better. As to oil. I installed racetech .95 springs with just under 10mm of baseline preload and used Maxima 7wt oil with the level set at 120mm. (I bought the springs from Aftershocks and Phil recommended 8mm of preload and a 125mm oil level. At the next service I'll replace seals and bushings and increase baseline preload to 15mm.) I also raised the tubes in the clamps about 3mm when I put them back in. I haven't had a chance to push things very hard, but my initial impressions have been very positive. The suspension is still pretty supple and seems to dive quite a bit less on the brakes.

Yes, forgot to mention, I did the "add several ounces and activate the damper rod and slider tube to work fresh oil in/old oil out and re-drain" before putting in the final fresh fluid.

ALSO - JIM - If you put stiffer springs in the forks, you should be using HEAVIER weight oil, not lighter! The main impact of the oil is to dampen the rebound of the spring after it has been compressed - you don't want it to spring back to forcefully/quickly. With a stronger spring, you want MORE damping, thus the need for a heavier weight oil.

Stock is SS8(10wt) so maybe a 12wt? You can also mix two weights to get an average; i.e. half 10wt and half 15wt will give you an effective 12.5wt oil.

[vfrjim2002]

ALSO - JIM - If you put stiffer springs in the forks, you should be using HEAVIER weight oil, not lighter! The main impact of the oil is to dampen the rebound of the spring after it has been compressed - you don't want it to spring back to forcefully/quickly. With a stronger spring, you want MORE damping, thus the need for a heavier weight oil.

Stock is SS8(10wt) so maybe a 12wt? You can also mix two weights to get an average; i.e. half 10wt and half 15wt will give you an effective 12.5wt oil.

Mizr,

The "heavier oil for stronger spring" theory is the same one I was raised on. However, all the knowledgeable advice I got and a lot of recent experience suggests it doesn't hold any longer, at least not for our bikes. It seems the forks on VFRs are notorious for being undersprung and overdamped. It's as if Father Honda decided use overly soft springs and then cranked up the compression damping to help control fork dive. IIRC, when 'slammer did the fork spring mod on his bike (or it may have been a buddy of his) he went with heavier fork oil and promptly had his forearms hammered into jelly. When he went to a lighter weight all was well.

On the expert advice front, just about everyone I've talked to advised going lighter. Phil (at aftershocks), a local bike guru (he was Steve Wise's factory mechanic when Wise raced M/C for Honda), and I'm pretty sure somebody mentioned that Max (at Traxxion) said the same thing. You might try going heavier, I know I was a hard sell on the lighter stuff myself. All I can say for sure is, so far, running 7wt the front end works quite a bit better than it did before.

[Dutchy]

It's as if Father Honda decided use overly soft springs

Father Honda OEM even used a cilindrical piece of metal instead of full-size spring.......

[vfrjim2002]

It's as if Father Honda decided use overly soft springs

Father Honda OEM even used a cilindrical piece of metal instead of full-size spring.......

Yep, and Racetech's springs are shorter than the OEMs. It's not all bad, though. The spacer material is probably lighter than an equal length of the spring, and the spacer makes it easier to precisely set baseline preload. (and the same spring can be used/sold for a number of different applications)

Is that a hyerpro above the oem?

[Dutchy]

Is that a hyerpro above the oem?

Nope, Wilbers (to match the new rear shock; although I suspects they are more or less the same).

Looked at the Hyperpro (they are a dutch company afterall) but the purple color is euh what can I say positive? Hhmm it isn't pink? :P

Hyperpro for VFR

[enzed_viffer]

Meh.

When my fork oil (VTR1000) was changed by my Bike Guy he eschewed all that labour-intensive stuff and did this instead:

1. Removed front wheel and axle.

2. Removed damper rod bolts from bottom of fork with rattle gun, and pumped old oil out.

3. Replaced bolts, removed caps, poured in measured amount of new oil.

4. Replaced caps and front wheel.

The whole thing took but a few minutes.

The VFR hasn't had its fork oil changed in the 27 munce since I bought it, as my Bike Guy inspected it and said it was OK. I concur.

What?

WHAT?!?!

So it wasn't flushed out, disassembled, cleaned, measured to the nearest fraction of a millimetre, agonised over!

It works, and it has to be a heck of a lot better than it was.

[turtlecreek]

called aftershock today after reading HS's post on heavier vs lighter oil. told them they sent me 5 wt and was that right....mistake on their end as they use 5 wt after doing valve job too. HOWEVER, not sending 10 wt or heavier, but 7 wt as the gentlemen said in earlier post. won't know until i try it next week, but that is what they are recommending.....

[Guest]

To Jim:

Regarindg the 7wt oil...

HMMMMMMM.... Yeah, I guess its a different philosophy, different way of solving the same problem. I guess its the same thing as re-valving using more pliant valving, which would reduce damping similarly.

Maybe I will try a lighter oil with my stock springs just to see what is what.

So if stock Honda SS8 fluid = 10wt, what is their next lighter fluid? SS5 which would be, wait, let me guess, 7 wt?? Gotta love it...

PS - BTW, I installed .95 springs (or were they .90...?) in my previous 4th gen last year, and they were much springier! Actually I run 155 lbs and now think I would have been better off with maybe .85's.....

[turtlecreek]

I just finished installing .95 racetech springs on my 2003. Sag went from 50+mm with max preload, to 30mm with min preload. (its raining so no ride report as of yet)

I began thinking about all the geometry issues and had a question:

assuming the following:

1. front forks are now raised to 50mm at top of nut cap from the previous 44mm

2. rear sag is at 35mm at maximum preload

questions:

1. didn't i just make turn in performance worse by raising the front by 10mm or so (some triangulation of 50mm-30mm=20mm sag change) even though I lowered the tubes in the forks 6mm?

2.I know that I need to get a stronger spring in the rear, but will have to wait until I can pay for a new 929 shock and spring mod, so in the mean time, wouldn't the correction be to shim the back with a 5mm stack to get a +10mm-15mm (is it a 2 or 3 times factor for shim hit vs actual height increase) in the back.

any other suggestions or thoughts about the relationship between front and rear sag/ride heights?

i have read over all the sag discussions and didn't see anything that answered this question.

[spud786]

I just finished installing .95 racetech springs on my 2003. Sag went from 50+mm with max preload, to 30mm with min preload. (its raining so no ride report as of yet)

I began thinking about all the geometry issues and had a question:

assuming the following:

1. front forks are now raised to 50mm at top of nut cap from the previous 44mm

2. rear sag is at 35mm at maximum preload

questions:

1. didn't i just make turn in performance worse by raising the front by 10mm or so (some triangulation of 50mm-30mm=20mm sag change) even though I lowered the tubes in the forks 6mm?

2.I know that I need to get a stronger spring in the rear, but will have to wait until I can pay for a new 929 shock and spring mod, so in the mean time, wouldn't the correction be to shim the back with a 5mm stack to get a +10mm-15mm (is it a 2 or 3 times factor for shim hit vs actual height increase) in the back.

any other suggestions or thoughts about the relationship between front and rear sag/ride heights?

i have read over all the sag discussions and didn't see anything that answered this question.

just remember how ever it feels it will soften after a few hundred miles, if the bike feels good on the front end but way to high up, raise the frks in the clamp there buy dropping the front end, I wouldnt go more that about 49mm on fork tube height above the top clamp as your dust seals may slam against the lower clamp on a full bottom.

[turtlecreek]

I was able to get in the maiden voyage of the 'new and improved' VFR. For all who have not tried it, it is much easier than I thought and quite worth it. No pictures and scarce on details below as there are plenty of 'how to' posts already.

I paid about $120 for springs and oil and it took me all of 3 hours to remove the forks and replace the oil and springs. I did not remove the cartridge from the forks. I simply inverted the forks and dumped and pumped the oil out, replaced with new springs, spacer and oil and reinstalled.

I ran a quick route with a couple of curves in it and hammered the brakes pretty hard. The nose diving is gone AND the bike is firm in the corners.

I came back and decided to add 5mm of shims to the rear as I did not feel that the 'quickness' was all the great at this point. I went to Pep Boys and they gave me some shims shaped in a 'U' and I was able to simple remove my seat, lift the tank and slip the shims in around the top of the shock mount screw after loosening it a few turns.

WOW! It feels like the bike lost 50lbs. I definitely like the new ride. I hope to do a longer ride tomorrow, but at this point it seems almost like a different bike. I was able to get to about 85mph and no instability issues. My final specs are:

SAG Front: 30mm

SAG Rear: 35mm (7 clicks, all she's got)

Front Forks: 50mm to top of fork nut plate

Rear Shock: 5mm shim (15mm height adjustment)

Front Preload: 1 turn in from minimum

Fork Oil: 7 wt, 5.5" from top of fork

.95 aftershock spring

As a point of reference, I weigh 260lbs

Also, I did not use any additional stands or lifts to do any of this. I simply put it on the center stand and used dumbbells on the seat to hold the front wheel of the ground when working on the forks and let it sit naturally on the front wheel to add the shim to the rear shock.

The ride was not rough at all with these settings. It was incredibly light on the turn ins. I was weaving the bike as I went down the road and prior to this change, it felt like I was running a 70's caddy. By this I mean super stable, but slow to turn. Now it actually 'flicks' when I push on the bars.

The only issue I felt was that the 15mm rise to the rear actually seemed to push me out of my corbin seat and on to my wrists more. I find it hard to believe that this small change could do this, so I hope it is in my head. Only time will tell.

Thanks to all the details everyone posted on this as it made implementation a breeze.

Next up: 929 shock

[vfrjim2002]

The only issue I felt was that the 15mm rise to the rear actually seemed to push me out of my corbin seat and on to my wrists more. I find it hard to believe that this small change could do this, so I hope it is in my head. Only time will tell.

Thanks to all the details everyone posted on this as it made implementation a breeze.

Next up: 929 shock

Congratulations. This is really a pretty easy job. I used a gallon paint can under the headers when I did mine. What length spacers did you wind up with? Mine are just over 107mm (7mm longer than stock. By my crude measurements, the RT spring is just over 20mm shorter than the OEM). This leaves me with about 8mm of preload adjuster exposed.

As to the nose-down pitch sensation, you've taken one the more aggressive geometery changes I've seen. I'm sure you've seen it, but the spec on the fork tube mounting is 41mm from clamp to the top of the tube (bottom of the cap). It sounds to me like you've dropped the front of the bike by 8mm and raised the rear by 15. The reason you feel like you're doing a handstand is, well, you're doing a handstand. I'm curious to hear what, if anything, happens in bumpy corners at higher speeds. Good luck.

[turtlecreek]

i cut my spacers so that the total length was the same with 2 washers as the old spring, spacer washer combo. this was a mistake as the preload is out to minimum at this point, thus sticking up almost an inch. i will open it up and cut down the spacer some time in the future. oops, to answer, i don't know the length...sorry. i think it was 120mm, but not positive. that seems to match the numbers you show. I need to cut it down about 10mm which would put me almost exactly were you are.

bumpy hi speed corners, hhhmmmmmm, nope, don't do those here :P

yeah, someone mentioned stepping out or spinning up to much with large changes like i did, but I am hoping that my large weight will help anchor it down some...we'll see!

[VFR4Lee]

15mm may not seem like much, but it seems that it is in the case of suspension. :D

[turtlecreek]

so you have me thinking about my recent shock/fork change job.

HOW MUCH IS TOO MUCH????

Not to beat this to death, but I am trying to understand the relationship between sag, shock/fork settings and overall front/rear geometry.

With my bike in stock condition, I was at 50mm front sag, 35mm rear sag with compression at max. this gives me a +15mm (+ being front lower from even 30/30 sag setting base line)(50mm-35mm)

after mods (new springs on front, raised front forks 7mm, raised rear by 15mm (5mm shim) I am at:

30mm front sag, 35mm rear sag. this gives me a new total of +13mm (30mm+7mm-35mm+15mm) or 2mm LESS AGGRESSIVE nose down

I guess what I am saying is it seems to me that my geometry is actually LESS aggressive because my SAG was so poor before and that I am not really going way overboard on my raising/lowering.

am I off base and trying to over simplify? I definitely thought I noticed the bike being MUCH quicker to respond, but maybe that was just because the spring rate is higher and it isn't wallowing.....

please show me the light :idea3:

[Guest]

so you have me thinking about my recent shock/fork change job.

With my bike in stock condition, I was at 50mm front sag, 35mm rear sag with compression at max. this gives me a +15mm (+ being front lower from even 30/30 sag setting base line)(50mm-35mm)

after mods (new springs on front, raised front forks 7mm, raised rear by 15mm (5mm shim) I am at:

30mm front sag, 35mm rear sag. this gives me a new total of +13mm (30mm+7mm-35mm+15mm) or 2mm LESS AGGRESSIVE nose down

I guess what I am saying is it seems to me that my geometry is actually LESS aggressive because my SAG was so poor before and that I am not really going way overboard on my raising/lowering.

When I do the math I think you are 2mm MORE aggressive (nose-down).

Front went up by 20, you brought it back down 7 (now its 13 higher). Then you raised the rear MORE that an equal amount with your 5mm spacer (the ratio is 3 from shock to rear axle) by raising the rear 15mm (while keeping rear sag the same).

Does this make sense?