Starter for 10....

[WillMitch]

Hello everyone... New here, so hopefully you'll excuse my ignorance around VFR's and send me a few pointers to help!!

 

I have built a couple of Ducati's before and they are quite agricultural compared to the Honda's and especially the VFR. I bought a 5th Gen 2001 engine and frame and have also bought a pre HISS / VTEC ignition and ECU (think it is a first model Gen 5 ignition). I want to test the starter circuit and get the thing running with a bit of 'Easy-Start' or something like that. Indecently this is a project build (not a restoration), which I will share on the forum if I get past this bit!

 

I have rigged things up as you can see in the pics, but would like to ask the question of the forum. What do I need to ensure I have hooked up, so I can switch on the key, select run and flick the starter switch to get the thing turning over. I know a VFR like things to be in order, whereas a Ducati will start if you can jam a lolly-pop stick in the ignition!

 

So, I have done the following:

 

- Plugged in ECU

- Connected ignition barrel and key

- Connected tilt switch

- Connected the injector bodies to the loom

- Connected the starter motor / battery to the starter solenoid

- Connected engine stop relay

- Connected main ground and battery ground

- Connected coils

 

I am just pulling this together, so this isn't the result of 4 weeks banging my head against a wall, just looking for a checklist really to avoid the head-banging in the first place. Needless to say, with the above connected I get nothing... not even a click.

 

Do I need to connect a few more relays etc?

 

Help welcomed.

 

Will

 

 

 

 

[Skids]

Gold engine casings? Don't recall a 5th Gen with those but could be wrong.

 

Can't help with the list but one of colonials will be along when they wake up I'm sure.

[MBrane]

Clutch-sidestand interlock is the first thing that comes to mind.

[Grum]

Think you should systematically go through this diagram of the Starter Circuit, check the wire colour codes and with a multimeter verify start to end point for each wire. Check for continuity of all switches on the drawing, and make sure Main Fuse A 30amp and the 10amp Starter Sub Fuse are both good.

 

The red highlighted section just shows the power side and the green being the ground side.

 

Get this right and you should have it cranking, getting the engine going is another story!

 

Trust you have the Service Manual.

[WillMitch]

This is excellent... Thank you guys for the input and the diagram is especially useful Grum... I don't have the official manual (need to order that), only the Haynes, which is sort of helpful.

 

I'll keep you posted on how it goes.

 

Incidentally Skids, the gold casings were a mod of mine. I like the old racing look (RC 30 / 45) which is where this build is headed... Apologies to the VFR purists, but this was a parts bike anyway and incomplete, so no chance of bringing it back to life as standard!

 

Cheers,

 

W

[Grum]

14 hours ago, WillMitch said:

.. I don't have the official manual (need to order that), only the Haynes, which is sort of helpful.

No need to order the manual, you can download it from this forum! Just go the the attached link.

The Gold components you've done look great, looks like you've been busy with Gold Leaf!

Good luck with the build.

 

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/search/&tags=diy

[St. Stephen]

4 hours ago, WillMitch said:

Incidentally Skids, the gold casings were a mod of mine. I like the old racing look (RC 30 / 45) which is where this build is headed... Apologies to the VFR purists, but this was a parts bike anyway and incomplete, so no chance of bringing it back to life as standard!

 

 

 

Those gold cases are pretty cool, even if you don't like the color--it's HRC!

 

[Bren]

That gold is 😋

 

Spray paint or powder?  Got a colour name or code please?

 

On the other hand don't tell me or I'll be pulling bits off again to get them done! That's the colour and shade I imagined before I started mine 😢

[St. Stephen]

6 hours ago, Bren said:

That gold is 😋

 

Spray paint or powder?  Got a colour name or code please?

 

On the other hand don't tell me or I'll be pulling bits off again to get them done! That's the colour and shade I imagined before I started mine 😢

 

Hey Bren, not sure if you are responding to me or WillMitch.

 

If me, those are original factory engine cases for my 2003 RC-51.  Larger view:

 

 

[WillMitch]

 

Well, made some progress... Thanks for the pointer towards the manual. Extremely helpful and thoroughly comprehensive.

 

As a result of a little patience and some trial and error, I have a functioning starter circuit. The thing spins up nicely on the handlebar switch, which is a mini result. Next I need to get a bit of fire in the hole. I have ordered a bunch of relays and will have a tinker at the weekend.

 

I might stick a build thread up on the forum, if that's of interest?

 

Also, Bren if you are referring to the gold paint on the cases I painted, then I have attached a pic. I bought these years ago for a different project and thought I would use them on this one. I actually really like this shade of gold... A bit brighter than the RC-51 gold in the above image.

 

Will

[bmart]

Yes on the build thread!

[Bren]

8 hours ago, WillMitch said:

 

Well, made some progress... Thanks for the pointer towards the manual. Extremely helpful and thoroughly comprehensive.

 

As a result of a little patience and some trial and error, I have a functioning starter circuit. The thing spins up nicely on the handlebar switch, which is a mini result. Next I need to get a bit of fire in the hole. I have ordered a bunch of relays and will have a tinker at the weekend.

 

I might stick a build thread up on the forum, if that's of interest?

 

Also, Bren if you are referring to the gold paint on the cases I painted, then I have attached a pic. I bought these years ago for a different project and thought I would use them on this one. I actually really like this shade of gold... A bit brighter than the RC-51 gold in the above image.

 

Will

Damn! Damn! Damn!

 

Thanks 😊 

 

Now my inner voices are telling me to find this paint "just in case". This was how I imagined my wheels...

 

Thanks @St. Stephen I didn't mean the standard HRC colour but if you have a paint code though I am very easily swayed in my attempt to make my POS bike look somewhat nice. One day I will give up 😇

 

+1 on the build thread!

 

[WillMitch]

Not managed to get near the bike over the last few weeks, but had a tinker this weekend. I’m going to leave a question here and see what happens!

 

I have managed to get the bike to spin over and have added a fuel tank, fuel and various relays.

 

When I switch on I get the pump priming, but I don’t get a spark. I measured voltage at the coils (12v at the black primary) and ground at the coloured terminal. However, ground disappears after hitting the start switch… feels like a deliberate ‘switch’ like the fuel relay is cutting in and breaking the circuit.

 

I am currently charging the battery, because my tinkering has started to drain it.

 

What should I be checking… imagining you were a home mechanic with limited electrical knowledge, but keen to learn and able to take some direction, even if it requires a multi-meter?

 

Thoughts / questions welcome… 

 

PS. Build thread will appear once I get the old unit to show signs of life!

[DannoXYZ]

Here's what I show for '00-01 ignition coils

 

 

blk/wht = power feed full-time from engine-stop relay with key ON/kill=RUN

coloured = open until grounded by ECU to fire coils

 

How are you measuring ground on coloured wires? If you backprobe both coil terminals, you should be measuring +12v battery voltage on BOTH of them with no connection to ground whatsoever. Then ECU momentarily grounds to fire coils. Duration is too short to measure with multimeter. Can see flashing if you connect solenoid light. Or looks like this on oscilloscope, battery-power most of time, with momentary 5ms pulses of ground.

 

 

Solenoid test light, also works on injector circuits: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0028QGU6C/

[WillMitch]

Wow… you’ve skipped a few classes there! Okay, I think I understand. What I thought I was doing was checking for a negative on the coloured terminals, but didn’t know quite how to do it, so was just looking for continuity to the Earth on the frame.

 

I’ll do a bit of research and check a few more things. I have also just ordered a clock set, so I can check codes. One came up on eBay!

 

Thank you.

[Grum]

Do you have the Neutral Switch or Sidestand Switch working?

Make sure you are seeing a Ground (from the Neutral Switch through the Clutch Diode) at B10 of the ECM this should be a Green/Red wire. OR a Ground on B21 from the Sidestand Switch being Up, a Green/White wire. Without a Ground at the ECM from at least one of these inputs,  Ignition will Not be enabled.

[DannoXYZ]

5 hours ago, WillMitch said:

Wow… you’ve skipped a few classes there! Okay, I think I understand. What I thought I was doing was checking for a negative on the coloured terminals, but didn’t know quite how to do it, so was just looking for continuity to the Earth on the frame.

 

I’ll do a bit of research and check a few more things. I have also just ordered a clock set, so I can check codes. One came up on eBay!

 

Thank you.

Yes, that's correct. Did you measure this ground with coils and ECU plugged in?

 

Should not be ANY continuity to earth at all before cranking. Unless you've got internal short to earth in ECU.

 

Try measuring for connection to earth again on coloured wires with ECU disconnected. Ohms = ???

 

 

[WillMitch]

6 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

Yes, that's correct. Did you measure this ground with coils and ECU plugged in?

 

Should not be ANY continuity to earth at all before cranking. Unless you've got internal short to earth in ECU.

 

Try measuring for connection to earth again on coloured wires with ECU disconnected. Ohms = ???

 

 

Will do… for context, this is the current state of play (see pic)

 

So this is a build of discovery and learning, rather than a stock machine I’m troubleshooting (just to make things a little more complicated for you all).

 

The difference in quality, complexity and refinement of a late 90’s Honda makes the other bikes I’ve done (Ducati’s) look like Duplo.

 

Patience required!!

[DannoXYZ]

Yes, Honda has incredible engineering and quality. In 2022, they sold 4.1-million autos and 17-million motos!!!

[WillMitch]

Latest update is after the arrival of a clock set from eBay, I have established there is a fault code.

 

The fault code is 18, which suggests a faulty Cam Pulse Generator. The description simply says ‘engine does not start’. That sounds about right to me.

 

 I’m going to clean up the connections (ran out of daylight) and see what difference that makes. Failing that I’ll just replace it.