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Barn Find - need help please


Jroberts3
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8 hours ago, VFR78 said:

Bloody hell Grum, I’ve gone cross eyed. You need to come out of retirement and open a motorcycle shop, specialising in Viffers. I’d be a customer!

But why does Grum start writing in ancient Latin whenever he talks about electronics😳 I don’t understand, literally. 

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Hello everyone.  Per Grum's and Danno's suggestions, I confirmed all injector and coil wires are the correct color and I measured all sensors for voltage and resistance.  I also pulled the throttle bodies and replaced all vacuum lines and made sure the L shaped vent hoses are connected to the underside of the airbox.  I found no leaks in the old hoses or T's, and the bike still behaves the same and will not start.  There are still no Fi codes, kickstand down, in neutral, kills witch run, ignition on.

 

There coils appear to have low output but video from my previous post shows decent spark.   I am beginning to wonder if the problem is a combination of the coils and possibly fuel pump too.  Let me explain.  The manual (p 5-48) says to turn the ignition on for 10sec and measure volume from the return hose.  The problem though, is the fuel relay kills the pump after (approx.) 1.5sec. and there is no way to perform the test.  This is what led me to jump the relay (improperly), and fry the ECU.  I was never able to get ANY fuel coming from the return line.  I tried direct 12v to the pump and bypassing the relay.  The only measurement I could get was the output volume of the mainline without a load.  I do not have a fuel pressure gauge with a banjo connection.  While the volume was good, I am starting to suspect the fuel pump may not be up to par under load.  Everyone I talk to says to replace the pump, it's 20yrs old after all.  What do you guys think?

 

Sensors & Electrical:

I am working with a cheap multimeter and my understanding of the settings is a bit fuzzy, please bear with me.

 

ECT:  2.44 Ohms  4.19v        (voltage slightly under spec 4.75-5.75)

 

MAP:  4.96v     WITHIN SPEC

 

TPS:  4.96v,  continuity exists between wire harness ground and TPS ground, no continuity between light green & ground -                     WITHIN SPEC

 

IAT:  2.61 Ohms  4.95v  WITHIN SPEC

 

Baro:  4.96v  WITHIN SPEC

 

COILS:  The manual has no specs for primary secondary resistance, but 3-5 Ohms seems to be the standard.  For voltage I set the multimeter (with peak voltage adapter), DC to 200v because the next lowest is 40v (this is where my understanding is fuzzy -not sure how this affects the reading).  Spec is anything over 100v so all of these appear to be lower than spec.  Again, not sure about the settings and how that effects the reading.  Please let me know.

 

Coil 3 - Primary 3.2 ohm, Secondary 2,021 ohm  -  Peak V 47.6

 

Coil 1 - Primary 3.2 ohm, Secondary 1,951 ohm  -  Peak V 51.9

 

Coil 2 - Primary 3.0 ohm, Secondary 2,017 ohm  -  Peak V 52.1

 

Coil 4 - Primary 3.0 ohm, Secondary 1,976 ohm  -  Peak V 51.6

 

That's all I have for now,  It's been a journey and still looking forward to getting her going.  Thanks all

 

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4 hours ago, Jroberts3 said:

I was never able to get ANY fuel coming from the return line. 

 

 :idea3: Ah Ha......This appears to be a Revelation!......

 

Fuel Flow Inspection test is on the Return Line NOT the Main Line. Looks like your bike is not starting due to inadequate fuel rail pressure!

 

Think you should have addressed the issue of No Return Line Fuel Flow way back, would have saved an awful lot of unnecessary checking and testing!

 

Assuming you don't have a completely blocked return hose, you could have a stuck closed FPR, or more likely a faulty Pressure Relief Valve within the pump or some other fault with the pump itself.

 

Have a good read of the Technical Features section pages 21-20 to 21-22.

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@Grum  With the bike having been parked for an extended period of time (years possibly), do you think there is any possibility of part of the fuel line or related components being clogged from the Ethanol used in US fuel?  

 

 

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7 hours ago, jroberts427 said:

@Grum  With the bike having been parked for an extended period of time (years possibly), do you think there is any possibility of part of the fuel line or related components being clogged from the Ethanol used in US fuel?  

 

 

Good point. Can't really answer that, good chance it will increase corrosion within the tank as well as the potential to absorb moisture because of its hygroscopic nature, who knows how this may effect components in the pump and fuel lines. Possibly the reason why he had to replace the injectors as two of them wouldn't pulse.

Do some research on "Phase Separation" issues with Ethanol blended fuels!

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Greetings everyone, the new fuel pump kit arrived today and I installed it.  Unfortunately there is no change, the bike starts and idles up, then slowly dies after about 30 sec. (just like before).  Any throttle input and she dies immediately.  Also the bike likes to sit a minute or two before starting again.  A fried suggested I pull the headers to look for an obstruction.  I can do that but I've already confirmed good flow from the exhaust and there are no strange smells when running.  The return fuel line is clear and the fuel pressure regulator holds a 35psi vacuum.  Still no Fi codes.  To me it "feels" like the bike runs from the initial pump prime but then starves for fuel.  See attached 2 videos taken a few minutes apart.  Earlier DannoXYZ mentioned the fuel rail sticking open, is there a way to test for that?  "Another test is measuring actual fuel-pressure in rail. Unusual for them to fail in open position and not build any pressure, but it has happened."  I appreciate any suggestions.  Thanks

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jroberts3 said:

Greetings everyone, the new fuel pump kit arrived today and I installed it.  Unfortunately there is no change, the bike starts and idles up, then slowly dies after about 30 sec. (just like before).  Any throttle input and she dies immediately.  Also the bike likes to sit a minute or two before starting again.  A fried suggested I pull the headers to look for an obstruction.  I can do that but I've already confirmed good flow from the exhaust and there are no strange smells when running.  The return fuel line is clear and the fuel pressure regulator holds a 35psi vacuum.  Still no Fi codes.  To me it "feels" like the bike runs from the initial pump prime but then starves for fuel.  See attached 2 videos taken a few minutes apart.  Earlier DannoXYZ mentioned the fuel rail sticking open, is there a way to test for that?  "Another test is measuring actual fuel-pressure in rail. Unusual for them to fail in open position and not build any pressure, but it has happened."  I appreciate any suggestions.  Thanks

 

 

 

Do you have RETURN LINE FUEL FLOW?? 

 

Your Fi light is fully ON, this is not correct. Should be OUT after fuel prime!

 

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2 hours ago, Grum said:

 

Do you have RETURN LINE FUEL FLOW?? 

 

Your Fi light is fully ON, this is not correct. Should be OUT after fuel prime!

 

The Fi plug was jumped.  I removed the jumper and the Fi light now goes out right after pump prime.  Sorry about that.  I will check the return fuel Sunday.  I am tied up Saturday.

 

Thanks

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6 hours ago, Jroberts3 said:

The Fi plug was jumped.  I removed the jumper and the Fi light now goes out right after pump prime.  Sorry about that.  I will check the return fuel Sunday.  I am tied up Saturday.

 

Thanks

Can I ask why you're running or attempting to run the engine with the Fi diagnostic shorting link applied? Its only needed for Stored Code retrieval not Active/Current fault codes.

And if you remove the link and keep your Sidestand Down whilst testing your bike, then the Fi Light will immediately flash a code if it detects any active faults.

 

REMEMBER- When doing the Fuel Flow Inspection Page 5-57, 5-58. At the Fuel Cut Relay socket ONLY JUMP ONE OF THE BLACK/WHITE WIRES TO THE BROWN WIRE (NOT THE BROWN/BLACK). Or you will blow the tits off a second ECM! Double check this BEFORE switching on the Ignition.

 

If your fuel flow return line checks are O.K.  You need to verify that once your bike starts and before it dies. Is the Fuel Pump running?

After fuel prime, the moment the ECM sees crank pulses it fires up the Fuel Pump, your symptoms might indicate this is not happening.

You could easily check this by having a voltmeter probing the Brown 12v Fuel Pump wire. Or perhaps with your ear against the tank to hear the pump running.

 

Good luck.

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On 10/23/2021 at 4:15 AM, Grum said:

Can I ask why you're running or attempting to run the engine with the Fi diagnostic shorting link applied? Its only needed for Stored Code retrieval not Active/Current fault codes.

And if you remove the link and keep your Sidestand Down whilst testing your bike, then the Fi Light will immediately flash a code if it detects any active faults.

 

REMEMBER- When doing the Fuel Flow Inspection Page 5-57, 5-58. At the Fuel Cut Relay socket ONLY JUMP ONE OF THE BLACK/WHITE WIRES TO THE BROWN WIRE (NOT THE BROWN/BLACK). Or you will blow the tits off a second ECM! Double check this BEFORE switching on the Ignition.

 

If your fuel flow return line checks are O.K.  You need to verify that once your bike starts and before it dies. Is the Fuel Pump running?

After fuel prime, the moment the ECM sees crank pulses it fires up the Fuel Pump, your symptoms might indicate this is not happening.

You could easily check this by having a voltmeter probing the Brown 12v Fuel Pump wire. Or perhaps with your ear against the tank to hear the pump running.

 

Good luck.

Hello everyone.  The Fi jumper was left connected by mistake.  I did the fuel flow test and the new pump puts out 300cc @10sec. at the return hose.  The pump operates during cranking too.  Is it possible for the pressure regulator to test ok but not perform?  I ask because the return volume is double the amount in the manual.  It holds vacuum and does not spill fuel with the vacuum line removed.  Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.  

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Return-volume depends upon input-flow vs. how much petrol is being used at time. At idle, so little is used, that return volume should be similar to input flow. If new pump flows more than old one, then return flow would also increase (injector usage remains same). Although pump-flow is inversely proportional to pressure. We'd have to get pressure vs. flow chart for that particlar pump to know for sure though.

 

Safe way to monitor pump operation is to back-probe fuel-pump connector with LED test light (or multimeter). If connector has power, then can assume pump is working. Can also confirm this assumption by disconnecting pump connector and powering pump directly from battery, thus leaving harness & ECU completely out of test.

 

We need to measure and test dynamic conditions now as something changes 30-seconds in. Does seem to be fuel related?

 

1. use rubber T and connect vacuum-gauge to FPR vacuum line. Monitor vacuum at start-up and observe any changes 30-sec in as engine dies

 

2. connect pressure-gauge to fuel-rail. 

  2a. note fuel-pressure when pump primes

  2b. note fuel-pressure when engine 1st starts

  2c. note pressure 30-secs later when engine dies

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Just to be clear with where you are at!

- Your original Fuel Pump would fail the Fuel Flow Inspection, as you stated you could never get fuel from the Return Line. But you had good or possibly bad flow from pressure line!!??

 

- Your New Pump now gives well beyond minimum flow and you state.... "The return fuel line is clear and the fuel pressure regulator holds a 35psi vacuum" 

Are you saying you have correctly done the Fuel Pressure Inspection and measured 35psi? 35psi vacuum what are you talking about?

 

You need to confirm by monitoring the Fuel Pump power, that means both its 12v feed on the Brown wire and its own Ground on the Green wire, NOT frame ground or battery Negative.

You need to verify that there is NO loss of Fuel Pump power Or ground, just Before your engine stalls.

 

If all is ok with the above power check then the only thing that can mess with Fuel delivery given you have new working injectors is the FPR!

 

 

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Thanks for your help Danno and Grum.  Here is where I am at.  I do not have a fuel pressure gauge as I need to wait till next paycheck to get one.  Today was the first time fuel came out of the return line. But keep in mind when I first attempted the test, I blew the ECU after a few seconds.  Perhaps it's more accurate to say I couldn't complete the test.  As far as volume is concerned, both pumps exceed spec by 100cc or more.  I was nervous jumping the fuel cut relay and triple checked how to do it per the manual and Grum's instructions.  I got nothing, no prime or noise.  I double checked again Black/White to Brown/Grey (not Brown-Black).  Still nothing.  Super nervous now, I decided to test in the natural state with the spark plugs and jumper removed.  Turned key, got prime.  Pushed button, engine cranked and plenty of fuel came out of the return line.  Then I saw Danno's reply and I installed a T between the vacuum line and FPR.  Here's where things get weird, the bike would not start, ugh!!  Removed T, still no start.  Removed vacuum line from FPR, no start and no fuel from vacuum side of FPR.  Reinstalled vacuum line to FPR, no start.  Removed vacuum line from FPR and tried to pull a vacuum.  NO VACUUM!!  Are you kidding me! (someone show me the way to the nearest mental institution),  I've put a vacuum on that stinking FPR probably 8-10 times and EVERY TIME it held 35psi steady.  After a couple beers I was able to accept reality and tried to start several more times, still no start and no FPR vacuum.  So I'm thinking I'm in the market for a FPR?

Thanks again guys for taking the time to type detailed responses.  I know its time consuming and probably frustrating. I really appreciate it.

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6 hours ago, Jroberts3 said:

As far as volume is concerned, both pumps exceed spec by 100cc or more.

Mate. You stated you could not EVER get return line fuel flow from the original pump. And your stated fuel flow test was incorrectly checked from the pressure line Not the return line!!!!

6 hours ago, Jroberts3 said:

Removed vacuum line from FPR and tried to pull a vacuum.  NO VACUUM!! 

What??... "NO VACUUM" don't fully understand what you mean here!

6 hours ago, Jroberts3 said:

I've put a vacuum on that stinking FPR probably 8-10 times and EVERY TIME it held 35psi steady.  

How are you measuring 35psi when you apparently don't have a pressure gauge to properly carry out the Fuel Pressure Inspection Test??

- If you have a pressure gauge on the pressure fuel line and have the fuel pump continuously running then Yes, I would imagine with an artificial vacuum applied to the FPR you should see fuel pressure changes. Fuel pressure should decrease with increasing vacuum applied to the FPR.

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On 10/25/2021 at 4:32 PM, Jroberts3 said:

 I installed a T between the vacuum line and FPR.  Here's where things get weird, the bike would not start, ugh!!  Removed T, still no start.  Removed vacuum line from FPR, no start and no fuel from vacuum side of FPR.  Reinstalled vacuum line to FPR, no start.  Removed vacuum line from FPR and tried to pull a vacuum.  NO VACUUM!!  Are you kidding me! (someone show me the way to the nearest mental institution),  I've put a vacuum on that stinking FPR probably 8-10 times and EVERY TIME it held 35psi steady.  After a couple beers I was able to accept reality and tried to start several more times, still no start and no FPR vacuum.

Something is wrong with testing methodology and/or equipment.

 

First vacuum is opposite of pressure (psi) and are lower pressures than atmospheric. So on pressure-gauge, vacuum would read as negative psi, or in.Hg or mm.Hg. Or with absolute pressure gauge, readings are in kpa or atm or bar.

 

Please explain how you did above step. What kind of equipment you hooked up. And post photos of how you connected everything.

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Greetings everyone, sorry I didn't respond for a few days.  I had to travel for work on short notice.  I will post a pic of my vacuum pump.  I had it connected where the vacuum hose connects to the FPR.  While away I ordered a new FPR and installed it today.  The bike still does not start.  The few times it started from before seem to be a fluke.  I will order a fuel pressure gauge and rule that out as a possible cause.  Considering the fuel system has all new components, I'm wondering what else it could be?  

IMG_20211104_142216216_HDR.jpg

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On 10/22/2021 at 5:58 PM, Jroberts3 said:

... The return fuel line is clear and the fuel pressure regulator holds a 35psi vacuum.  Still no Fi codes...

 

On 10/25/2021 at 4:32 PM, Jroberts3 said:

... I installed a T between the vacuum line and FPR.  Here's where things get weird, the bike would not start, ugh!!  Removed T, still no start.  Removed vacuum line from FPR, no start and no fuel from vacuum side of FPR.  Reinstalled vacuum line to FPR, no start.  Removed vacuum line from FPR and tried to pull a vacuum.  NO VACUUM!!  Are you kidding me! (someone show me the way to the nearest mental institution),  I've put a vacuum on that stinking FPR probably 8-10 times and EVERY TIME it held 35psi steady.  After a couple beers I was able to accept reality and tried to start several more times, still no start and no FPR vacuum.  ...

Something is seriously wrong here. So you've got standard vacuum/pressure gauge with vacuum-pump... so far so good...

 

uc?export=download&id=1sMpBFRFb_M-PN93Nm

 

However, you'll notice that gauge reads 0-30 in.Hg vacuum to left (absolute zero pressure) and 0-30 psi pressure to right (3x atmospheric pressure, zero=1atm)

 

uc?export=download&id=12jz1W3gqbiqjhY8lL

 

Nowhere on this dial does it say 35psi???

1. Take photo of how you have this device connected to FPR and vacuum-T

2. Take photo of gauge saying "35psi"

3. Are you using pump-handle in any way?

 

Again, as mentioned before, you don't want to change system in any way or introduce outside influences. Might be good idea to pick up measurement-only vacuum-gauge. https://www.harborfreight.com/fuel-pump-and-vacuum-tester-62637.html

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Thanks Danno, I really appreciate you hanging in there.  Today the bike started and I was able to get video of the vacuum in action (finally)!  I've had the gauge from Harbor Freight for a while, but the bike didn't start with (or without), it connected.  Also in trying to rule out the fast wax, I disconnected it to see what happened.  It doesn't make much difference at all.  Today it started several times with it closed and with me adjusting it by hand.  Holding the SV's all the way open made it harder to start while anything less than all the way open did not effect the starting or running.  The vacuum gauge appears to show low vacuum as it never stabilizes in the green zone.  Please let me know what you think.

 

Thanks Again

 

    

 

 

 

 

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I don't understand why you are trying to measure the vacuum on the FPR line! As long as there is a vacuum evident then thats all that matters there is no value given or test specified! The most common issue with the FPR is a ruptured diaphragm, less common would be jammed, blocked for some reason or broken spring. You don't have any issues as you've fitted a new one.

What really matters regards the FPR is your Fuel Rail Pressure. It's been mentioned numerous times to check this. The test also mentions to remove FPR vac hose and block it. At idle you should see 36psi. Your engine runs long enough to check this.

Running this test will also verify that the fuel pump is Not mysteriously shutting down Prior To the engine dying.

 

Also your measurements for the ECT are not good...

"ECT 2.44 Ohms  4.19v  (voltage slightly under spec 4.75-5.75)"

If you are probing the terminals on the ECT where the Green/Orange and the Yellow/Blue wires go to, then at 68degF you should read 2.2 to 2.7k ohms. Also the 5v reference voltage on the Green/Orange wire (ignition to On) needs to be within the range of 4.75 to 5.75v

Note - The third wire of the ECT being the Green/Blue is for your Instrument Panel readout.

Are you sure that when repairing rodent damage to both oil pressure switch and neutral switch that there was no damage to the ECT wiring as well?

The ECT is critical for cold engine starting fuel enrichment, something to think about.

Another thing to remember..... If you have any doubts about the MAP Sensor you can swap it with the Baro Sensor for fault finding, they are exactly the same device.

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Vacuum has direct relation to fuel-pressure in fuel-rail and resultant AFR. By maintaining fixed pressure-differential between injector inlet to outlet regardless of load-conditions (intake-manifold vacuum), it's much, much easier to calculate required injector duty-cycle. A 4-ms pulsewidth injects exactly same amount of petrol regardless if engine is at idle or WOT. 

 

1. native FPR pressure is 2.5-bar, 36psi. However, very rarely would this pressure ever be present in fuel-rail.

 

2. under actual operating conditions, such as at idle, rail pressure would be 2.5-bar (36psi) - 20in.Hg (-10psi) or about 26psi at idle. This is true test of FPR, If it doesn't reduce pressure properly to 26psi, then engine will get loaded up with too-rich mixture and eventually die.

 

So now we have useful indicator of idle vacuum, clearly something is wrong. Not sure why it's fluctuating so wildly, it's clue of some sort. This would also detrimentally affect MAP-sensor as it would see huge variation in output voltage. While MAP-sensor always has higher variations at idle and smooths out at higher-RPMs, it's usually not this wild!  Look for cracked lines and Ts in system. Especially going to MAP-sensor. You really want stable vacuum-signal of 20-22in.Hg at idle.



I suggest putting original FPR back in so we don't have additional possible errors introduced into system. Next measure fuel-rail pressure at idle under 2 conditions:

 

1. FPR vacuum-hose disconnected and plugged. What is pressure in fuel-rail up to point engine dies?

2. FPR vacuum-hose connected. What is pressure in fuel-rail up to point engine dies?

 

3. is time to engine dying different with hose disconnected or connected?

 

4. disconnect all sensors, key ON, measure 5v sensor reference voltage at ECM connector. What is this voltage?

More data from un-molested system will be valuable in narrowing down what actual problem may be.

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Thank you for the suggestions guys, It may take a bit for me to perform the tests as I am waiting for the fuel line gauge with banjo adapter.  Also please keep in mind that sometimes the bike will not start under any condition and run time is random.  Yesterday's run was with the fast wax disconnected, which brings me to a question I've had about the SV's.  Should the bike start when these are closed all the way?  I ask because when I had the throttle bodies off to replace the vacuum lines, I tested (with my mouth), the four brass air passages into the SV's. (where the tubes attach) and the one next to the factory set SV always let air thru even when closed.  I believe it was cylinder two.  I thought it might be normal but figured I'd ask you guys to make sure.  Also, attached is a quick overview vid of the vacuum line routing I did.  

 

 

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Leave 'noid-light connected to injector-harness. Does it blink when bike has "no start" condition?

Look in manual for SV adjustment. There is a stopper that determines their almost-closed setting. They should allow a little bit of air through. All valves should be synced at that position.

 

The fluctuating idle vacuum would seem to indicate someone sort of vacuum-leak in manifold. 

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