zektiv Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 So my buddy and I have been rebuilding a 95 vfr 750, and we finally got it to the point where we were ready to start it up, but instead of the glorious sounds of ignition we got clicking, with the occasional high whine. I made a short video of it, I hit the starter the times and you can clearly hear the "clack" sound and on the third attempt you hear the whining. The battery is brand new. We drained the oil and changed out the clutch, and we just flushed out the coolant. The last time it started was about a month and a half ago when I first acquired it and it seemed to start up just fine, turning over nicely. Since then we've drained all the fluids out and rebuilt the clutch, master and slave, front forks, and I added an aftermarket fuel pump (the original went bad apparently and the previous owner was running it gravity fed.) We also cleaned and relined the fuel tank (which was filled with rust). I've put it into 1st gear and tried rolling the rear wheel, but I get no movement. In neutral it free wheels just fine. I see fuel in the in-line fuel filter (new) but I don't know if the fuel pump is actually running (no noise). Not sure if that's relevant. Any ideas, thoughts, suggestions, etc would be much appreciated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mk2davis Posted September 24, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 24, 2015 How much pressure is your fuel pump putting out? I can't watch your video at work. From what I'm reading, it may be a starter solenoid issue. I'd run some jumpers from the battery to your starter and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 How much pressure is your fuel pump putting out? I can't watch your video at work. From what I'm reading, it may be a starter solenoid issue. I'd run some jumpers from the battery to your starter and see what happens. I'm very new to this - but learning a lot as I go lol. I'll attempt to locate the starter and run jumpers to it... Just to be clear, I'm literally attaching jumper cables from the battery posts to the starter somehow...? I'll see if I can find more details on this procedure before attempting it of course; any advice on doing this without killing myself or my bike is also appreciated.The fuel pump is (supposedly) putting out the correct flow (can't recall right now the exact lps but I did verify that before purchasing it. That being said it is not OEM.) It doesn't make any noise when the key is turned, however, so I gotta think it's simply not pumping any fuel or it's a very, very, very quiet unit. If it isn't working could it be preventing fuel from continuing on into the motor? Thanks! Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer ecn Posted September 24, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 24, 2015 if you rebuilt the clutch, on the gen 5, there is an idler gear on a shaft that can fall out when you pull the cover. If you re-install the gear flipped over, it will bind and the starter will not spin. It would be cool to hear that I was not the only person to discover this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 if you rebuilt the clutch, on the gen 5, there is an idler gear on a shaft that can fall out when you pull the cover. If you re-install the gear flipped over, it will bind and the starter will not spin. It would be cool to hear that I was not the only person to discover this. I wonder if this is also true about the gen 4... We were pretty careful but it's a possibility. I can crack open the case again - its on the side stand now so I should be able to do so without losing all the oil right?Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Just a tip, make sure the fuel petcock under the tank is on the on position.........don't ask how I know this.... That high whining sound cannot be the fuel pump, as the pumps on these bikes are pulse type pumps, so the sound they make is more of a slow "tuk..... tuk...... tuk" sound. As for the loud clicking sound, that could be the starter solenoid, but maybe the starter could not turn over the engine for some reason. Check for a maybe a hydrolock condition with the cylinders. Also check on the condition of the starter pawl clutch as those have been know to sometime crack and break up on people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer mk2davis Posted September 24, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 24, 2015 On the third gen, the fuel pump doesn't run all the time and wont be heard on key on. At least mine isn't. My original though was that if the pump pump was putting out to much pressure, gas is blowing right past your floats. Before jumping the starter, you may want to pop off your spark plugs and make sure there is no liquid in there. And yes, jumping the starter is just jumping the starting. Actual jumper cables might be a bit cumbersome, but alligator clips on the thicker gauge wire would do the trick. You're just trying to figure out if the problem is starter/engine related or wiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 Is this what you're referring to? I can't even get it out much less rotate it, but it wiggles a bit back and forth in place. Not sure how I'd install it backwards, I can't even remove it lol. Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 24, 2015 Author Share Posted September 24, 2015 Cranked this a couple of times to see if that might help move things... Figured that the bike hasn't been cranked up for almost two months, maybe it's locked up for some reason. Anyway, pretty tough to move but it does (albeit begrudgingly). Cycled it a few times and heard some sighing from this area: Tried firing it up, and it gave like a tiny little nudge of a turnover, a scoche of that sound, and then went back to the clack and occasional whine. I believe the whine to be the starter motor not being able to crank... It was really tough to cycle the pistons. I'm done futzing with it for tonight but any additional thoughts or advice is appreciated! Is it possible that the pistons are hydrolocked? From my (admittedly limited and sometimes frighteningly inadequate) experience I remember that being the death knell of a car's motor. Is this something I can fix? Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Here's a link to a post I found while googling everything I could think of. It's for a cbr but the outcome/cause was certainly interesting. http://www.fireblades.org/forums/honda-cbr-600/77782-cranking-engine-hand-what-sort-resistance.html Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted September 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 25, 2015 The good news vs the CBR's problem in the link is that your 4th gen VFR has gear drive for the cams, so there's no possibility of the cam timing being off and having a valve interfering with the pistons. When rotating an engine against compression, the resistance will increase and decrease as each piston comes up on its compression stroke in succession. What would be concerning would be the resistance is high and constant. If it were mine I would remove all 4 plugs and see how the engine turns over by hand. It should be readily turned with the socket and ratchet. If there's fluid in the cylinders that should become apparent with the plugs out. If that's good, reinstall and check out the starter, solenoid and electrical connections, including the kill switch. If that all checks out then I'd remove the clutch cover and check the starter clutch as described above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 When rotating an engine against compression, the resistance will increase and decrease as each piston comes up on its compression stroke in succession. What would be concerning would be the resistance is high and constant. When I hand cranked it, the pressure did indeed vary as it cycled - it wasn't high and constant. Thanks for the battle plan; I'll attempt to troubleshoot each item in turn. Here's to hoping it's something inexpensive! Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BCmcrider Posted September 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 25, 2015 Are you sure it's not just a low battery? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magsz Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 We picked up a new battery today and installed that so no, not the battery...unless the new battery is somehow dead which would surprise me. Its a Shorai (SP) Battery right off of the shelf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 25, 2015 Author Share Posted September 25, 2015 Are you sure it's not just a low battery?Definitely not. I originally thought that might be the case so it was the first thing we addressed. As magsz said, I've got a brand new Shorai battery installed.We've got our work cut out for us lol. Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhubarb Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Just because a battery is new doesn't mean it's good. Is it the 14 or 18 amp Shorai and what is the voltage? If it's been charged with a desulfating charger or if the output has dropped to 6 volts or less it's toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Dutchy Posted September 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 25, 2015 With a little effort and bike in neutral, you should be able to turn the cog #7, grip the outer section with your hand It looks hower that the little axle (#6) is not in (it probably is stuck to he engine/clutch casing as you took it off) if so, ring #8 fell out too, did you place that on the front of the cog? Looks like it on the picture The ring #8 It must be at the rear of the cog (is a biatch to do, need thin fingers or use a pair of long pliers while you wiggle in the axle. If that littleaxle is stuck to the engine cover (it always does so for me), clean it put a put of rubber tape around it and GENTLY use vice grips to rotate it out. it says put in a new o ring but imho that is optional. As I said the little axle #6 always comes out when I pull the cover. If it does with you and the large cog #7 skips a tooth no worries, it doesnot matter as long as the axle is in. Donot attemt to put the clutch cover on with the axle stuck to the cover, it will not slide in the hole and if you start tightening the bolts you may cause damage Now if this is your issue? I do not know.... The download section has the 3-4th gen manual including troubleshoot guides, have a look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer paulmeisterpk Posted September 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 25, 2015 This still seems to me like a battery, starter, or connection issue. Check to see that you have 12 volts at the starter with the starter switch engaged. If you do not, then you may have a bad solenoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BCmcrider Posted September 25, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 25, 2015 In the video, twice or three times, the solenoid pulled in but starter didn't spin. One attempt, solenoid closed and starter spun but sounded lazy. Sounds like low voltage. If something was stuck physically, you'd likely get one or the other I'd think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted September 25, 2015 Share Posted September 25, 2015 Cranked this a couple of times to see if that might help move things... Figured that the bike hasn't been cranked up for almost two months, maybe it's locked up for some reason. Anyway, pretty tough to move but it does (albeit begrudgingly). Cycled it a few times and heard some sighing from this area: Tried firing it up, and it gave like a tiny little nudge of a turnover, a scoche of that sound, and then went back to the clack and occasional whine. I believe the whine to be the starter motor not being able to crank... It was really tough to cycle the pistons. I'm done futzing with it for tonight but any additional thoughts or advice is appreciated! Is it possible that the pistons are hydrolocked? From my (admittedly limited and sometimes frighteningly inadequate) experience I remember that being the death knell of a car's motor. Is this something I can fix? Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk That's the thermostat..... hope you do not have a blown head gasket..... with coolant leaking into the cyclinder(s) and air getting into the cooing system when you spin the motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 26, 2015 Author Share Posted September 26, 2015 That's the thermostat..... hope you do not have a blown head gasket..... with coolant leaking into the cyclinder(s) and air getting into the cooing system when you spin the motor. Crap, that sounds ominous! A blown head gasket? What should I be doing to check for that??? Should I take a video of the engine turning so you guys can listen to it? Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Posted September 26, 2015 Share Posted September 26, 2015 That's the thermostat..... hope you do not have a blown head gasket..... with coolant leaking into the cyclinder(s) and air getting into the cooing system when you spin the motor. Crap, that sounds ominous! A blown head gasket? What should I be doing to check for that??? Should I take a video of the engine turning so you guys can listen to it? Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk I just theorized that as manually spinning a motor should not get the water pump to circulate enough coolant that you can hear it go through the thermostat assembly/hoses, so maybe vacuum or pressure from a piston is getting thorugh to the cooling system through a blown gasket??.... but that's just a theory from me you might check out...., so do not panic yet...... Is the oil looking OK?? No foam/water mixed in it?? or are you seeing oil in the coolant?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted September 26, 2015 Member Contributer Share Posted September 26, 2015 How does it turn over without the plugs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 26, 2015 Author Share Posted September 26, 2015 How does it turn over without the plugs? Haven't had a chance yet to do it. As you know I have to take off the gas tank and push the radiator to take out the plugs and I've had a couple of long days at work. My goal is to pull the plugs and check for fluid tomorrow afternoon, apres-travaille. While I'm doing that I'll bypass the solenoid and see if I can isolate the starter.Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zektiv Posted September 26, 2015 Author Share Posted September 26, 2015 Discovered this during testing of the starter solenoid when I disconnected the rectifier... Here's a shot of the inside of the rectifier: Aside from that the outside of the rectifier looks normal-ish... I don't think it's an OEM model though... Could this be the problem? While I wait on feedback from you guys (and thank you BTW for all your help so far) I'm pulling the plus and checking out the cylinders. Thanks! Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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