Wrong Fluid For Clutch?

[Ranger77]

My clutch lever had been a bit finicky for awhile and finally one morning I threw the bike in gear and she wanted to take off with the clutch lever held. Pulled the slave cylinder and it was leaking around the piston. Kinda rusty looking. I replaced the fluid 2-3 years ago and I think I used Vavoline Syn Power. All it says on the bottle is it exceeds dot 3 & 4. I know the FSM says to use Dot 4. I guess I didn't do a good job cleaning out the old fluid and this stuff mixed with it and finally blew through the seals? I got the replacement parts for the slave, but should I get a new master piston set (#3 on fiche)?

Even if I should get a new master piston, I want to get this back together since I haven't ridden her for what feels like 2 months. The spiders are taking over. What fluid would you guys recommend. Just plain old Dot 4 of any brand?

I don't see this on the fiche but is there any way to replace the window? Mine is faded and cracked from sun damage.

This is when I first pulled the slave.

Today while pulling everything and cleaning.

[CatiePotatie]

Any brand should do fine imo, but definitely Dot 4

Dot 4 of any kind will mix perfectly with old Dot 4, Dot 3 will not and the non-mixing can cause problems

Dot 5.1 or whatever it's called is silicon based and compressible, only for specific situations and rarely in a street orientated vehicle.

That's some tasty looking brown goop you got in there :P

[CHUCK2]

I've got DOT 5 in mine & has worked fine for many years now (knock on wood).

[mello dude]

I've used the Valvoline Syn Power or now its just called Valvoline Synthetic Brake Fluid for a dozen years or so and it has performed with no issues. --- I seem to remember that I had read something in the tech section way back that the Sport Rider moto rag crowd uses it,and since they did, it would be fine to go to.

http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/valvoline/dot-3-4-brake-fluid/28

--- Pulling a line of the information listed....

• Surpasses specifications SAE J1703, FMVSS No. 116 and DOT 4 Motor Vehicle Brake Fluid

Surpasses Dot 4 specs, sounds like it should be fine...........

[BusyLittleShop]

This topic has always been a hot one, D.O.T. 3 brake fluid versus

D.O.T. 4, versus D.O.T. 5. Which is best? Isn't D.O.T. 5 the hot

set-up? Why are there different kinds to begin with, and what are the

pros and cons of each? Let's explore all that, and hopefully in the

process eliminate the hype and misinformation that often surrounds

this subject.

Air? From Where? Let's begin at the beginning. A brake system is not a

sealed system. A physics principle known as Boyle's Law in a

round-about way establishes that a fluid cannot leave a container

unless air can follow it. If the vent in your gas tank plugs up, for

example, fuel will eventually stop flowing. Similarly, a brake system

is, like a fuel tank, vented to atmosphere, usually at its highest

point, the reservoir. (Ever notice that little notch?) Thus a brake

system has continuous access to air.

The Problem with Moisture But that means it also has continuous access

to moisture, for air naturally has moisture in it, to varying degrees.

All brake systems have moisture in them, all the time, and this is

unavoidable. There are two inherent difficulties with this that brake

system designers must contend with. First, as moisture increases in

the brake fluid, it tends to collect around the system's moving parts,

particularly the pistons. If this moisture is allowed to increase, the

pistons and surrounding areas will begin corroding and brake function

will be seriously impaired. Corrosion is a big deal in brake systems,

as anyone who has restored a vintage vehicle will attest. Nasty.

The other problem with this continuous exposure to moisture is that

moisture makes the brake fluid more compressible. You don't want any

compressibility in a brake system. For every millimeter that the lever

or pedal moves, you expect a proportionate movement of the brake pads

against the disc. If you don't have that, you have an unreliable and

dangerous brake system. Unfortunately, brake fluid becomes more

compressible as it increases in water content. Water contains

hydrogen, and in response to heat cycles the brake fluid soon has air

mixed into it as well as moisture.

Consumer-Friendly Brake Fluid Brake system designers consider these

issues thoroughly. To reduce the effect of both corrosion and

compressibility, virtually all vehicle manufacturers use and specify a

kind of brake fluid that is designed to not only accept significant

amounts of moisture, but even to neutralize it by dispersing this

moisture evenly throughout the system, thus preventing its

concentration in any one area. It's actually kind of amazing what

brake fluid does, when you think about it.

What Does the D.O.T. Rating Mean? Eventually, however, because of this

designed-in moisture management, the fluid gets overloaded and must be

replaced. So important is this fluid replacement point that vehicle

manufacturers have traditionally called for a maximum of a two year

period of use of the fluid. By that time, the fluid will have started

to turn golden, then light brown, indicating that it has absorbed

progressively more moisture. Eventually, if left unchanged beyond the

recommended service interval, the fluid will become dark brown,

indicating high amounts of water absorption and thus badly

contaminated fluid.

The importance of monitoring brake fluid's water content is further

demonstrated by the fact that in the U.S., a brake fluid's most

important classification is determined by the Department of

Transportation, an arm of the National Highway Traffic Safety

Administration. The D.O.T.'s rating communicates how contaminated with

water the fluid can be and still work properly. In essence, how

consumer-friendly it is. This is where the numbers 3, 4, and 5

actually come from. The D.O.T.'s rating focuses on the compressibility

issue, and measures a brake fluid's ability to resist boiling into a

very compressible gas even when new. This of course reflects upon its

compressibility over time as well, after it has aborbed moisture and

become incrementally more compressible. This is the fluid's so-called

boiling point, which for most brake fluids centers around nearly 500

degrees Fahrenheit when new, and rapidly decreases with water content.

Incidentally, D.O.T. 3 brake fluid is for all practical purposes

obsolete. D.O.T. 4, a rating that came about in response to the

emergence of sintered metal brake pads during the early 1980s, has

replaced it, being still a glycol fluid but with a slightly higher

boiling point. Glycol brake fluid containers now are labeled "D.O.T.

3/4," presumably to eliminate confusion, as the two fluids are nearly

the same. However, this seems to have merely raised more questions in

most people's minds. The short of it is, if using purely organic

(almost exclusively aftermarket, and usually, racing) brake pads,

D.O.T. 3 will suffice. Otherwise, use D.O.T. 4.

Glycol Brake Fluids

Virtually all vehicle manufacturers specify one kind of brake fluid,

whose base is alcohol. As we have already explored, this eminently

ubiquitous alcohol (actually glycol) brake fluid is suited to the

realities of vehicle ownership. It neutralizes moisture, turns color

in direct proportion to moisture content, disperses moisture so that

it doesn't concentrate, and resists heat related degradation that

leads eventually to increased compressibility. Glycol brake fluid is

clearly extremely forgiving, maintenance-wise. In fact, vehicle

manufacturers use it because they are quite aware that the average

owner will never change his brake fluid, let alone do so at the

recommended maximum two-year intervals!

There are disadvantages to glycol brake fluid however. For one thing,

the very attribute that enables it to accept moisture actually causes

it to attract moisture, as any alcohol product will. For this reason,

brake fluid suppliers recommend that only small amounts be kept on

hand, and that a tight seal be kept on any unused fluid. (In the old

days, it used to be available only in metal cans.) Another

disadvantage, and a significant one, is that glycol fluid is

chemically caustic, meaning that it damages other materials. It

effortlessly removes paint and does strange things to plastic. (Even

after it is wiped off, glycol fluid causes catalytic embrittlement, a

chemical reaction on the molecular level that leads quickly to deep

cracks. The ABS plastic used in motorcycle bodywork is especially

susceptible.)

Silicone Brake Fluids

In years past, all brake fluids were glycol. Then D.O.T. 5, a silicone

fluid having a higher temperature rating, emerged, initially to meet

the higher boiling point requirements of racing use. (Race car brake

systems include oil-cooler-like heat exchangers and ceramic pads.)

Silicone fluid was able to withstand the most heat of any brake fluid,

so it earned a reputation as a racing brake fluid. However, silicone

brake fluid has properties very different from glycol fluid, and has

its own pros and cons. On the advantage side, silicone fluid will not

harm paint or plastic, and does not aggressively attract additional

moisture as glycol fluid does. On the disadvantage side however,

silicone fluid aerates easily. Harley-Davison, one of the sole current

OEM users of silicone fluid, warns buyers to let the fluid sit at

least an hour before using it. The trip home in the saddlebag is

enough to aerate silicone brake fluid until it looks like a freshly

poured soft drink. Silicone fluid is also slightly more compressible

than glycol fluid, does not change color to tip the user to its

moisture content, and worst of all, neither accepts or disperses

moisture, making systems using it more corrosion prone, and requiring

much more frequent fluid changes. Silicone brake fluid also lacks

glycol fluid's naturally occuring lubricity, making it incompatible

with the mechanical valving in some antilock braking systems.

A third brake fluid category could be included, if we were to consider

bicycles. Their hydraulic brake systems use mineral oil, that is, baby

oil. About the same consistency as glycol fluid, mineral oil is still

not the best thing around paint, but in most other respects it is

fairly non-corrosive. Like silicone fluid however, it does not deal

well with moisture.

Which is Best?

As you may have noticed by now, instead of looking at brake fluid as

D.O.T. 3/4 versus D.O.T. 5, we should see the issue as glycol versus

silicone. This represents the larger division of type, and comparing

D.O.T. ratings just isn't significant, especially since D.O.T. 5

fluids are now available in glycol formulation. Glycol fluids have

improved until they now meet D.O.T. 5 standards. D.O.T. 5.1 for

example, is a glycol fluid designed for certain ABS systems having

mechanically cycling proportion valves. So now we have D.O.T. 3, 4, 5,

and 5.1, with all but the 5 designation being glycol, while the 5 is

silicone.

The real way to compare brake fluids is by deciding what is important

to you. Is silicone fluid's safety around paint and plastic more

important than yearly changes and a softer action? Its higher boiling

point, the reason for its development and at one time its strong suit,

is now academic, since D.O.T. 5 glycol (5.1) fluids are now widely

available. Glycol fluid therefore is, for most of us, the better brake

fluid, and the best just may be the 5.1, if the highest boiling point,

which is really a moisture tolerance measurement, matters.

On the practical side, beware that glycol and silicone brake fluids

are hugely incompatible with each other. Mixing even small amounts

will create a sludge that looks amazingly like Italian salad dressing

and is about as effective as a brake fluid -- meaning, not. Of further

consideration is that, in some cases, the hardware designed for one

fluid will not accept the other. Brake caliper and master cylinder

seals, hoses, and other parts won't always work correctly when the

type of fluid is changed.

Summary

Over the years, the debate has continued as to which is the best

fluid. Racers and custom builders have traditionally promoted silicone

fluid, and many street riders have assumed this meant it was good for

them also. However, silicone is the highest-maintenence of all brake

fluids, one that demands frequent attention. While this is acceptable

in a race setting, it is less so in everyday commuting. The plain fact

remains that vehicle manufacturers use glycol fluid because, with its

being designed for the average consumer, it poses the least liability

to them. In reality, the answer to the usage question is simple -- the

brake fluid type the manufacturer recommends is the best. In most

cases this will be the glycol fluid, the one that is designed to meet

all of your brake system's demands and do so with very little fuss.

Boiling point of Glycol based brake fluids

DOT 3 205 °C (401 °F)

DOT 4 230 °C (446 °F)

DOT 5.1 270 °C (518 °F)

Boiling point of Silicone based brake fluids

DOT 5 260 °C (500 °F)

[mello dude]

Debate? What debate? Does Valvoline Syn Fluid meet specifications and requirements? Yes

[Ranger77]

Im really just trying to figure out the cause of the sludge.

Also, what speedbleeder # is it for the slave cylinder?

[spud786]

Ive been using the valvoline syn power for years and years. The key is frequent flushing of the resovoir, to avoid the buildup that your seeing, by constantly removing sludge and renewing fresh clean fluid in the resovior. The clutch really really contaminates and builds sludge very quickly if you dont do this a couple times per year. Early in the bikes life is very important.

I recall when I firstt flushed my oem fluid, Only a couple thousand miles , sludge was already there. Anyone thats gone a couple years on oem fluid, probably has already sustained damage.

But the main point, your going to get sludge in the clutch no matter what, its all about keeping it at bay so it doesnt cause a failure.

[MBrane]

Looks like incompatible fluids to me. You can't mix silicone with glycol.

I use DOT4 myself, and bleed it once a year or after every track day whichever comes first.

[Duc2V4]

Im really just trying to figure out the cause of the sludge.

Also, what speedbleeder # is it for the slave cylinder?

Another Valvoline user here and so far no issues. The speed bleeder part is SB8125 or SB8125L. The 'L' has a slightly longer bleed nipple

[MeyekulBayrd]

The cause for the sludge is you waited two to three years years to flush your clutch fluid. It should be flushed at the minimum annually just like your brakes. When he fluid gets dark it's time. Just get the valvoline dot 3/4 synthetic for $8 and flush it.

You'll need a rebuild kit or another slave if it's leaking. I just bought another slave on ebay.

[Duc2V4]

Oh yeah, I would get the stainless steel version. I bought my kit from wiremybike.com

[Ranger77]

The cause for the sludge is you waited two to three years years to flush your clutch fluid. It should be flushed at the minimum annually just like your brakes. When he fluid gets dark it's time. Just get the valvoline dot 3/4 synthetic for $8 and flush it. You'll need a rebuild kit or another slave if it's leaking. I just bought another slave on ebay.

I under stand that but the point is the last time I changed it, there was no crap in it and who knows how many years old that stuff was because it was years after I bought the bike.

Ebay had some stainless steel lines for a good price but I'm not finding them any more. Hmmm.

[Guest]

DOT 4 is recommended as others said. My clutch system was like that too, I would clean it out every year to ensure smooth operation. Also would be good to ensure that gasket is in good condition. I put a new gasket and spring on the clutch slave and it made a world of difference in shifting,I had a major clog in my line after letting it sit still for about 5 months.