Got New Battery, Update On Previous Rr Mod, And Question

[VFRSuperfreak]

Hola paisanos VFRos; I hadn't posted in a while. Here's an update on some changes I made prior to this latest purchase.

Update 1;

I'm running on a gixxer 1k RR, not sure what model, only know it was a 1k cruiser, for some 3 years now, >10thou miles. Also have direct lines to batt POS and NEG from RR, and serviced the harness to avoid arcing.

The previous battery lasted well over 4 years, it was not a Yuasa I got it used with the bike!,. Perhaps due to the charging rate. which is thus;

14.25 at idle, cold.

14.50 at 4k rpm, lights off.

13.75 at idle with HID lights + brake pressed. (it recovers to 14.20 or so after a short while).

Update 2;

The new battery, this is a good brand right? The price was right, local Honda dealer said it was original equipment, I haven't bought a battery for soo long, I had to trust.

I'm thinking the charging rates are a tad high, perhaps due to the HID's lower draw. I'm thinking of adding driving lights, mirror mounted, regular bulbs, Those normally draw at least 4amp and up.

Thoughts? Jeers?

Thanks!

[2thdr]

Can't see the model number on the battery, but Yuasa is a good one and OEM. If you want to go heavy duty, search for the part number for the OEM battery on the ST1300...it is the same physical dimensions as the VFR supplied battery, but has more CCA and capacity. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong on the benefits...

Be sure to charge it at least overnight on a trickle charger before installing

[mk2davis]

Check the manual for specs, but those numbers don't look bad.

I wouldn't go through adding lights to try and change these. If your adding lights because you want more light, go for it.

[MBrane]

Those numbers look OK to me.

I have yet to get more than a couple years out of a bike battery, and my bikes rarely sit for more than a few days. Heat, and vibration will kill a battery just as well as letting the charge level drop too low for too long.

[mello dude]

Charging outputs are fine about exactly where you want them.

[VFRSuperfreak]

Thanks for the feedback!, yeah I do want a broader field of light ahead, surfaces around here are a nightmare. Plus I need the hi-lo visual effect. Presently there's only on-off, I can't signal using this. I do however have a bright LED white blinker at both ends.

What I did before (on my white 91), was mount some nice round lights at the mirror bases, then wire them to the high-beam wire with a relay. That bike btw never gave me any headaches electric-wise.

The batt model is YTX-12 BS, the local ebay-like outlet had them for about $110. (1,300 pesos), this was $70.usd. net at Honda. I bet my buddies have bought crappier chinese bricks for the same cash.

At this time I doubt I'll need higher CCA's, winter is just beginning, and here I'm not using heated accessories. This is my fav riding time of year, I'll probably ring up 4k kms by spring.

[vfrcapn]

Follow this chart to check your charging.

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

Sounds like you're good though with the V figures posted.

[VFRSuperfreak]

Soo, posted too soon, 4 days ago the batt "wasn't holding the charge", jump started it, went to the dealer, and was shown that the charger was only doing around 12 volt. noo way!

They told me that it may show a good charge rate when cold, and then this, when hot, when the stator goes. So they gave me instructions to remove the stator to bring for a rewiring or however it's called in english. They don't actually do that in this shop, recommended me to do it wherever I may trust, so I trusted them on that. I'm in the middle of it, a bit of oil came out, and I gotta now follow the wire so completely remove this thing.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/gallery/image/62617-vfr-problem-171028/'>

[VFRSuperfreak]

Ok so I got the stator redone, rewound. I installed it just now and it does not charge as it was before the problem developed.

Now; 11.5 at idle, lights on. 12.30 lights off. after 4 minutes of this, shut off and it didn't want to come back on. (the battery is brand new)

Before; it was charging as listed above; 14.50 at 2k RPM. It is using an RR from a Suz 1k, had been using it for 3 years now and all was well.

I'm trying to find the previous RR, the original one, that I took off 3 years ago, and test with that. I was never sure the original RR was a problem, just changed it because I found that other RR.

/edit -Thing is the rewound stator should work fine, with the same RR that was working before now? -yeah I know vfrcapn. Will check that Diagram right this moment.

Any suggestions welcome! Thanks.

[2thdr]

I would also start looking for ground problems. Check ALL connectors you can find for signs of overheating, melting, burning wires and/or connectors. It's a tedious process. There are lots and lots of threads on these issues. You may want to invest in a VFRness from member Tightwad. How is your stator to R/R connector?

[VFRSuperfreak]

I would also start looking for ground problems. Check ALL connectors you can find for signs of overheating, melting, burning wires and/or connectors. It's a tedious process. There are lots and lots of threads on these issues. You may want to invest in a VFRness from member Tightwad. How is your stator to R/R connector?

Went there when I changed the RR just now. All connectors are fine at the RR harness, altho the ground did have a bit of dark corrosion on it. Sprayed it with WD40, then;

Connected the old, original RR, (it was quick, because I didn't change the harness, I just ran extra neg and pos wires from it, using taps, direct to the battery bolts, 3 years ago when I changed the RR). fired it up with jumpstarter wires from the car, disconnected them, and the multimeter showed even lower charge; 9.2 volt, at the battery bolts. I have two multimeters, which I tested separately at the car's battery. They work.

All things are pointing to the rewound stator? To recap; Brand new battery, Yuasa. Using used RR from Gixxer 1k as had been using for 3 years, all was well up until December, the prev. battery which served me well for over 4 years was not holding charge. Changed it, then the stator quit charging when hot. Rewound it, now we have <12v charge at idle.

Thanks again.

[MBrane]

You need to test voltage from the stator itself.

[VFRSuperfreak]

You need to test voltage from the stator itself.

Just did that, altho following the electrosport guide it was a bit dificult, I think because the guide was made too general and it says to isolate two wires away from the 3 yellow ones, closest to the engine. This doesn't match a VFR setup; Only 3 yellow ones are coming from the stator.

So I tested among these 3, and got very little, to no charge between them. However I'm not sure I'm testing right. I attached 3 spade connectors to the socket side coming from the stator, as shown, to ease testing.

I guess it's going back to the shop, but I suspect a wire between the stator winding, and the harness, got damaged, there's no way I'm not getting any charge from a newly rebuilt stator.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/gallery/image/62658-from-stator-2013-01-10-171213/'>

[mello dude]

^^^^^ --- I also find the electrosport chart shall we say "annoying" to follow. So, here is a "keep it simple stupid" list to check your charging system.

These are R/R quick checks---

--- With voltmeter at battery get voltages -- idle volts? 5000 rpm volts? What’s the numbers? Should be in 13ish min idle and in 14s at revs.

- Check stator

- 1. Pull connector apart. Set meter to resistance. Check pin to pin, 3 yellow wires, A to B, B to C, C to A. What’s the numbers? 3 separate readings --Should be less than 1.0 ohms. (Engine off)

- 2. Check continuity from each A,B,C pin to ground, -- -should be infinity - nada nothing. no continuity. -- 3 separate checks. (Engine off)

- 3. Crank it back up. Do another pin to pin thing, but set meter on AC volts. idle and 5000 rpms. What's da numbers? Should start 15 -20ish and climb 50ish and more. Again – 3 readings

- Repeat hot.

Write down the numbers and tell us what it is.

[VFRSuperfreak]

^^^^^ --- I also find the electrosport chart shall we say "annoying" to follow. So, here is a "keep it simple stupid" list to check your charging system.

These are R/R quick checks---

--- With voltmeter at battery get voltages -- idle volts? 5000 rpm volts? What’s the numbers? Should be in 13ish min idle and in 14s at revs.

- Check stator

- 1. Pull connector apart. Set meter to resistance. Check pin to pin, 3 yellow wires, A to B, B to C, C to A. What’s the numbers? 3 separate readings --Should be less than 1.0 ohms. (Engine off)

- 2. Check continuity from each A,B,C pin to ground, -- -should be infinity - nada nothing. no continuity. -- 3 separate checks. (Engine off)

- 3. Crank it back up. Do another pin to pin thing, but set meter on AC volts. idle and 5000 rpms. What's da numbers? Should start 15 -20ish and climb 50ish and more. Again – 3 readings

- Repeat hot.

Write down the numbers and tell us what it is.

Ok had to leave for an aft. shift but just before I got a chance to run some of these tests. -Some, because the stator is just not giving any juice.

Those checks on point 2 above would've been handy as it is I only tested V. and Ohms between the yellow wires.

So, this is the problem, no voltage at all coming out of the 3 yellow wires, tested disconnected from the first harness, engine running.

Ohms; ther's only 3.4 from center to one, but that's it, between the others it's open. No resistance showing. It's like two wires are not connected to aything inside the rotor casing. This thing is going back.

Still I'm curious tho, guy is reputable, it's all he does in a big shop. He was working on a newish Ducati, yeah, you know ,if you can make Ducati's electrics work...

Will try to test for continuity before running back, it's 60kms return to his shop!

Thanks.

[kaldek]

That new stator is stuffed mate.

Also, re-wiring stators is a pig of a job. How much did they charge you? Rick's motorsport electrics sell brand new stators for this bike for $140

[MBrane]

Looks like somebody screwed up the rewind. It happens. Like mentioned above it's a tedious job. Like winding a bunch of tiny guitar pickups, and splitting them into thirds.

[Bassie]

Did you test the converter from AC to DC? It could be damaged as such not providing enough DC voltage.

The stator gives AC, but it's DC that charges the battery, if there is something broken in the convertor there it won't charge either.

Did you check DC voltage without the battery connected? At 5000RPM is should read about ~14V DC, if the battery is broken it could bring it down to very low levels too.

[VFRSuperfreak]

That new stator is stuffed mate.

Also, re-wiring stators is a pig of a job. How much did they charge you? Rick's motorsport electrics sell brand new stators for this bike for $140

And done. (I avoid ordering from USA because I'm in Mexico. fewer parts, but more craftsmen, just wish they were more consistent).

So, this little rewinding job done last Friday at 5pm. (I guess), got fixed today. I brought it back, dude spotted a mistake in the winding, and fixed it.

I just installed it, all with the proper dielectric grease on all contacts, new hand-cut asbestos seal and silicone on the stator casing.

The new readings, taken at the battery poles, everything connected:

Idle, engine warmed up to analog temp indicator in the middle.

Lights off 15.10

Lights on 12.80 -( I know, this is on the low side, will check the last bit of wiring; RR harness to battery, again, and replace connectors if it doesn't improve).

Lights and Fan on 12.60 (yes I have a manual override fan switch, it's a 4th gen).

At 3k RPM:

Lights off 14.70

Lights on 14.50

Lights and Fan on 14.50

Those numbers look close as to when it last worked and was tested. The battery is new and was on a trickle charger while parked. It fired up without a hitch.

Thanks everyone!

[MBrane]

As long as you don't spend much time idling looks your you're back in business. 15 volts for an extended period will cook your RR/battery.

[kaldek]

Lights on 12.80 -( I know, this is on the low side, will check the last bit of wiring; RR harness to battery, again, and replace connectors if it doesn't improve).

Nope that's normal - at idle the stator can't put out enough power for the bike to maintain 14 volts when all the lights are on.

[Bassie]

Lights on 12.80 -( I know, this is on the low side, will check the last bit of wiring; RR harness to battery, again, and replace connectors if it doesn't improve).

Nope that's normal - at idle the stator can't put out enough power for the bike to maintain 14 volts when all the lights are on.

That is not a problem, as you don't need to charge the battery all the time.

These batteries are charged anywhere between 12,8 and 14,4V.

And if they are full, the don't charge anymore.

I fail to see why you need 14V all the time.

The stator won't burn if the voltage is too low to charge, it would more likaly burn when you drained the battery and then go into the high RPM's.

As with a higher voltage the amps go up and it could be too much.

For sure it won't burn at low RPM's.

A simple calculation demonstrates this:

Let's say the battery has 1Ohm as value, just to show you why it's at high RPM and not a low.

Low RPM = 13V and battery = 12V, diff between them is 1V.

High RPM = 15V and the battery is 12V, diff between them is 3V.

So the power drawn according to the Law of Ohm => V = A x Ohm, or reworked to what we need A = V / Ohm gives:

Low RPM => 1V / 1Ohm = 1 Amp

High RPM => 3V / 1Ohm = 3 Amp

Ergo, idle is not the problem but loading at high voltages will burn the stator.

Normally there should be a limiter on the max loading.

It's just an example, but high voltage it putting more Amps on the circuit.

Looks to me Honda made a design-flaw if it burns or your battery has a broken (shorting) cell and such not being diff 3V but 4.2V....it will push the amps even further.

[huntinggunns]

That new stator is stuffed mate.

Also, re-wiring stators is a pig of a job. How much did they charge you? Rick's motorsport electrics sell brand new stators for this bike for $140

And done. (I avoid ordering from USA because I'm in Mexico. fewer parts, but more craftsmen, just wish they were more consistent).

So, this little rewinding job done last Friday at 5pm. (I guess), got fixed today. I brought it back, dude spotted a mistake in the winding, and fixed it.

I just installed it, all with the proper dielectric grease on all contacts, new hand-cut asbestos seal and silicone on the stator casing.

The new readings, taken at the battery poles, everything connected:

Idle, engine warmed up to analog temp indicator in the middle.

Lights off 15.10

Lights on 12.80 -( I know, this is on the low side, will check the last bit of wiring; RR harness to battery, again, and replace connectors if it doesn't improve).

Lights and Fan on 12.60 (yes I have a manual override fan switch, it's a 4th gen).

At 3k RPM:

Lights off 14.70

Lights on 14.50

Lights and Fan on 14.50

Those numbers look close as to when it last worked and was tested. The battery is new and was on a trickle charger while parked. It fired up without a hitch.

Thanks everyone!

Those numbers look really close. As far as the slighlty low voltage at idle, are you sure you have the idle RPM set correctly. The tachometers on these bikes are not accurate enough to set the idle speed correctly. Use an actual digital test unit to check the idle speed to be sure. I bet if you raise the idle speed about 50 to 100 RPM your voltage output will be spot on at idle.

[Bassie]

12.8V with lights on at idle is just fine.

I have more problems with Lights-off-idle....the voltage is way too high.

Did you check the amps that goes into the battery?

Did you check the standard voltage of the battery?

Just because you are able to make it to 15+ volts tells me the battery is broken and not charging, else you would not reach that voltage at all.

A broken battery that can't be charged doesn't draw amps and as such the voltage will be very high. (typical a broken battery).

Your battery alone, should do about 12~12.8V even with lights on, if it drops below 12V then you know the battery is broken as you can put the voltage up to 15+ volts as well.

[VFRSuperfreak]

12.8V with lights on at idle is just fine.

I have more problems with Lights-off-idle....the voltage is way too high.

Did you check the amps that goes into the battery?

Did you check the standard voltage of the battery?

Just because you are able to make it to 15+ volts tells me the battery is broken and not charging, else you would not reach that voltage at all.

A broken battery that can't be charged doesn't draw amps and as such the voltage will be very high. (typical a broken battery).

Your battery alone, should do about 12~12.8V even with lights on, if it drops below 12V then you know the battery is broken as you can put the voltage up to 15+ volts as well.

Seems the good times were short lived. I've now been stranded twice as the engine won't turn, Initially I blamed the RR so I got a new one, albeit a cheap one so that's gotta go if the problem persists. Meantime I'm very interested on how you got to the above conclusions, (set to bold my me).

Only asking because that's exactly what I'm suspecting, and because I've never come across these pointers, and I think I've inhaled all of the available webpages on this.

Ok so, this is what's happening now, with rewound stator, new RR, and new battery;

2-5k RPM and hot; 15.7volts (reading while riding).

Hot, Idle, lights on; 12.8volts. Except if I sit idle for too long, lights dim!!. -When cold, the idle voltage is between 14.5 and 15volt, it fluctuates. (I bought one of these RR's that has 6 leads, the extra being connected to switched power as per instructions.)

However, since I also suspected a parasitic draw, I tested, and it came to this; 137maH. Reading other posts about this, I reckon this is 120mah too high, but came here and posted on an old "parasitic, dead yuasa" thread, linked here.

I'm totally willing to dish out more $$ for a better RR, just wish I had some feedback on a), the battery as suspect, altho it's a month old. and b) the parasitic load.

Thanks everyone!. Pls let me know on the above questions Bassie!.

/edit; Standard voltage; meaning key off first thing in the AM? = 12.90v or so 5% -/+

And amps going on the battery; haven't. I have both a small and bigger multimeters, I'll do this test next. Right now I have it a regular sized, automatic "Die hard" charger on it, won't leave it overnight. altho it's 4am now.