Alternators, regulators, stators oh my!!

[Guest Poncharello]

Sooo, not many here know me, but just take my word for how retarded I am when it comes to electronic diagnosis and generally anything wiring or testing related. Spee and SikD can attest to this if you need lolz.

Hokay, so, here's my problem:

I'm freezing my ass off going/coming from work so I invested in some heat gear (suuuuuuuper sweet!!!) but as of now it's too much wattage for my stock system to handle. It's draining the battery to the point where the bike starts cutting out while I'm riding it if I have full electrical power to *everything.

Here's *everything:

Heated grips (idk watts), Jacket liner (90w), and gloves (24w).

Here's yet to come:

Heated pant liner (35w) and socks (18w), HID low/hi beams (might decrease the wattage a lil??), Maybe LED brake/running light

My initial solution:

I figured my battery is 8 years old, prolly need a new one. So I just (yesterday) put a new Shorai heavy duty Lithium Iron battery in the Viffer and this morning riding out I got twice as far on full power (almost all the way to work!) as I did with the oem battery, however the same thing happened. Bike started to cut out due to lack of electrical power.

:Edit:

Here's some questions and responses I have received from my other (http://www.http://sloriders.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5672) (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17536800#post17536800) forums:

Originally Posted by

GrizzledOl'Bastard

I know it's disgustingly cold where your riding but you can cheat a little buy not running your heat gear at full power? If I might ask, who builds your shit? (Heated Gear). What kind of controller are you using to modulate your gear? A Gerbings controller like I run utilizes a pulse control system. It pulses energy to the gear. It's not just "on" with constant free flowing energy to the item. This helps with the load to some degree. If you have heated gloves, fuck the grips. Another way to cheat the system a little.

I try to only use my gear if I absolutely have to (at least for right now), but in the future I'd *like* to be able to use some or all of it whenever I please. All of my stuff is from 1st Gear (

Warm & Safe

) except for the

grip warmers

.

This

is the controller I'm running and I believe it does the pulse thing. And I've only been using the grips when I don't have the heated gloves on.

Originally Posted by

GrizzledOl'Bastard

This may seem pretty elementary but heated gear is designed to be snug, not loose like we normally wear our clothing. It should be the second layer on your body and snug so it transmits heat that is not lost in dead air space. Air is a shitty conductor of heat, and cold for that fact. Doing it this way will allow lower settings saving you wattage.

My gear is as snug as it can be without ripping when I move, but like you said, it's disgustingly cold out there so it takes a lot to keep warm. I'm playing with different layers of clothing in between the liner & the jacket, but it's a tight squeeze.

Originally Posted by

GrizzledOl'Bastard

Lastly, I'm not familiar enough to know what year your ride is. Many of the earlier models had inherent R/R issues so that needs to be cleared up now, too. Anytime your voltage drops below about 13.6-13.8V while your rolling, you will end up in a battery depleted situation like you are now. Not only will that kill your battery, but it will fry your charging system. In the meantime, can you connect to a battery charger when your not riding? The charging system is not designed to recharge a depleted battery,but just top-off a slightly used battery.

I've got a 2003 Honda VFR 800 (ABS Model), there is a recall on the

wiring harness and brakes

that I have yet to look into to see if it has been done. I'll be getting on that shortly. I do have a trickle charger at my disposal and have been using it as necessary.

Any help/ suggestions would be greatly appreciated, thanks folks!

[spud786]

You bought a unproven battery and too many are having issue with the lithiums to even bother, I have zero faith in that choice, ST1300 agm battery is the Proven choice. I presently run a scorpion st1300 agm and hold 14.7 to 14.9 volt with RD and electric vest, even at idle with those on full blast Im over 14 volt battery read. Back with the original vfr agm and about 40,000 mile on it the same idle condition with electrics and RD, i dropped into the high 12's at idle.

Id get a st1300 battery agm, run all OEM components, and check all wiring for good mechanical and electrical continuity. Are you holding above 14.5 volt with no electics turned on while riding, If not Id start there

Its also possible you have a degrading stator, but id start with a base with no electrical, or reduce you current load and see how much it comes up.

[Baileyrock]

Hi and welcome.

I see your from frozen CA.

First off STOP! Buy no more heated gear than you already have as the VFR has little Extra capacity. Be sure to NEVER run your Hi Beams when running any heated gear as they alone eat up(100w) almost half of any reserves( approx.250w total).

Start with a basic Charging system test. Battery should hold 12.7v + min. or it needs charged or replaced, then check voltage at 5k should be 14v+.

I know that 02 VFR had their Alt. recalled, but can't remember if the 03 was also included. They did NOT increase total wattage output at all, but they Did start full charging at a lower rpm as it was people running in stop & go traffic (read low rpms) who were having charging issues.

If you don't have a Honda Service manual you can download it from out "Files" section.

BR

[Guest]

HID hi beam conversion installed, only running heated gloves as that's a necessity where I'm riding (14 F).

Just tested voltage @ the battery and here are the results:

Just sitting, the battery registers at 13.1v with no measurable leakage.

Idle is 700-1000 rpm @ 12.5v

2500 rpm @ 12.8v

3000 rpm @ 12.8v

4000 rpm @ 13v

5000 rpm @ 13v

So something is obviously wrong with the charging system. I have yet to test the stator and regulator/rectifier.

Talking with CG, they are suggesting replacing/upgrading these components with ones from Electro Motorsports that claim a 20% charging gain over OEM parts. Any thoughts on that? I'd include a link to the parts, but I'm unable to find Electro Motorsports online. New R/R and stator are running for $239.90 (S = $139.95, R/R =$99.95)

Also, they ripped me a new one for going with the Shorai battery instead of a much cheaper gel cell. They said the Shorai battery is probably half my problem as the power curve has a sharp drop off(?), I didn't really follow it all too well but basically they were saying that it's a race battery for race applications and no wonder I can't power all my stuff. In which case my thought was, well no battery is meant to run all the electrical stuff on its own, that's what the stator & r/r is for, right?? Ugh, now I'm getting that all too familiar headachy feeling

Getting a multimeter tomorrow and testing the Stator and R/R. Found my Haynes repair manual this morning.

Also, Cycle Gear was telling me that it's an 8 hour r&r on the stator & r/r as they were saying the components were probably buried, but after looking in the repair manual it looks pretty straightforward to me, everything is accessible by simply removing the side fairing and all I need (other than the replacement components) is a gasket for the main outer cover. Might need to find someone locally with a belt strap wrench(?). Shiiiit nyukkas, I GOT this!

:knocks on wood:

[Monk]

I see one thing that needs changing .... Your idle should be 1200 / 1300 rpm's.......

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/

[spud786]

You dont have to mess with the flywheel to replace a stator, so a belt strap wrench would not be needed if you had to replace the stator, If you do get a different Battery, dont get a Gell, get a Honda ST1300 AGM battery YTZ14s or equivilent, thats factory sealed. No mess, no fuss, direct fit and they work. The yuasa is the Top dog, Ive run it , its the Battery the VFR should have came with stock, same size and everything, just alittle more cranking amp and reserve power. Presently Im running a Scorpion st1300 AGM (to see if it is worth the savings), but I Transfered my Yuasa battery cable nuts, cause the scorpions were cheesey, but the battery thus far has been great 10,000 mile, but it hasnt done the life my Yuasa did(Yet). Oem components are your best bet with electrics, the 6th gen RR's are a good unit, the stators are more prone to develope issue, but Id still go OEM stator, they are generally post 50,000 mile stators.

[1TallTXn]

You bought a unproven battery and too many are having issue with the lithiums to even bother, I have zero faith in that choice, ST1300 agm battery is the Proven choice. I presently run a scorpion st1300 agm and hold 14.7 to 14.9 volt with RD and electric vest, even at idle with those on full blast Im over 14 volt battery read. Back with the original vfr agm and about 40,000 mile on it the same idle condition with electrics and RD, i dropped into the high 12's at idle.

Id get a st1300 battery agm, run all OEM components, and check all wiring for good mechanical and electrical continuity. Are you holding above 14.5 volt with no electics turned on while riding, If not Id start there

Its also possible you have a degrading stator, but id start with a base with no electrical, or reduce you current load and see how much it comes up.

The Shorai's are new tech. Not arguing with you there, but the battery is not the sole problem here. It may contribute to the issue (I don't see how, but it could) but it's not the cause.

The OP mentioned that he had better results with the Shorai battery than he did with the stocker.

Ponche, check out this PDF www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

It's a flowchart for troubleshooting your Stator and R/R. Pretty easy to follow, only needs a multimeter.

[timmythecop]

It may be apples and oranges, but my 2000 with stock everything puts out 14.2 volts (wattage reserve unknown) on the highway with heated vest on high, heated grips on high, and GPS on.

I am electric stoopid, as well, but another thing to remember is that certain grip and heated gear controllers use full power at all times with a resister and some use only the power that is needed.

Good luck.... Heated gear is so nice.

[spud786]

I said the st1300 AGM batteries are the best battery for the VFR, BAR NONE!!!!!!

It all starts there or your charging will have to work harder and probably burn it up, prematurely. Obviously he's been running an unproven battery, that many have had issue with. Ive personally enjoyed the commentary on the New Tech, but wouldnt toch it with a ten foot pole, after the poor results..

[kaldek]

You bought a unproven battery and too many are having issue with the lithiums to even bother, I have zero faith in that choice

Uh, excuse me? LiFe battery technology is well proven and I have zero issues with mine some 20,000 kilometres in.

It all starts there or your charging will have to work harder and probably burn it up, prematurely. Obviously he's been running an unproven battery, that many have had issue with. Ive personally enjoyed the commentary on the New Tech, but wouldnt toch it with a ten foot pole, after the poor results..

Again, total bollocks.

[HispanicSlammer]

When I had the old girl all full up on heated stuff and I had a long way to go I would unplug one of the 2 headlights and save 55w.

[rdguy]

When I had the old girl all full up on heated stuff and I had a long way to go I would unplug one of the 2 headlights and save 55w.

Bingo! This is the standard approach on VStroms, in fact Eastern Beaver sells a switched harness to cut out one side of a Strom. Didn't see one for the VFR.

According to this:

http://www.warmnsafe...31&chapter=40#1

Your controller is PWM with a one second cycle, but I had somebody explain that a long cycle can drain the battery anyway. Something to do with the frequency of the bike's charging system (don't ask me, I don't really believe in electrons anyway). His suggestion was a cheep eBay LED controller, which switches at a much higher frequency. Just get one rated for enough watts.

Glenn

[kaldek]

HID hi beam conversion installed, only running heated gloves as that's a necessity where I'm riding (14 F).

Just tested voltage @ the battery and here are the results:

Just sitting, the battery registers at 13.1v with no measurable leakage.

Idle is 700-1000 rpm @ 12.5v

2500 rpm @ 12.8v

3000 rpm @ 12.8v

4000 rpm @ 13v

5000 rpm @ 13v

So something is obviously wrong with the charging system. I have yet to test the stator and regulator/rectifier.

Talking with CG, they are suggesting replacing/upgrading these components with ones from Electro Motorsports that claim a 20% charging gain over OEM parts. Any thoughts on that? I'd include a link to the parts, but I'm unable to find Electro Motorsports online. New R/R and stator are running for $239.90 (S = $139.95, R/R =$99.95)

Also, they ripped me a new one for going with the Shorai battery instead of a much cheaper gel cell. They said the Shorai battery is probably half my problem as the power curve has a sharp drop off(?), I didn't really follow it all too well but basically they were saying that it's a race battery for race applications and no wonder I can't power all my stuff. In which case my thought was, well no battery is meant to run all the electrical stuff on its own, that's what the stator & r/r is for, right?? Ugh, now I'm getting that all too familiar headachy feeling

Getting a multimeter tomorrow and testing the Stator and R/R. Found my Haynes repair manual this morning.

Also, Cycle Gear was telling me that it's an 8 hour r&r on the stator & r/r as they were saying the components were probably buried, but after looking in the repair manual it looks pretty straightforward to me, everything is accessible by simply removing the side fairing and all I need (other than the replacement components) is a gasket for the main outer cover. Might need to find someone locally with a belt strap wrench(?).

Hookay everyone take a DEEP breath. The problem here is simple:

Your charging system is stuffed. The problem is your stator, it is not your regulator. Regulators regulate - yours isn't even regulating because the output from the stator is too low. I need to clarify this, as I remember replacing a regulator for a mate's ZX-12R which had failed, but I can't recall if it was NO charge or just a very low charge. So I need to clarify that it's *possible* that your regulator is faulty, but likely that it's your stator. As always, follow the electrosport fault finding guide.

OK, so now the question is what do we need to replace? To be honest, we need your engine number because the early 2003 models had the small shitty stator and the later 2003 (and all newer) models have the larger stator. I definitely recommend the larger stator as it has more output in total and more output at idle in particular. If you put in a larger stator you MUST put in a larger rotor, otherwise the rotor will smash into the stator.

Let me make something perfectly clear. There nothing wrong with pulling as many amps out of your stator as it can deliver. In fact it is BETTER for the charging system than pushing the regulator hard as it's not shunting current back into the stator! Obviously if you pull too much the charging system can't cope and you will flatten your battery. That's what is happening here, it's just that your stator is stuffed and it's putting out even less amps than normal.

So, what you need is a new stator and possibly a replacement rotor in order to bump up the output capacity of the stator IF your stator is one of the weak ones. I believe the weak ones are engine number 2503808 and earlier. If yours is one of those, you need to buy the Honda part 31100-MCW-315 which is the combined OEM stator and rotor (for only $194!).

So, how to get the rotor off? To get the bolt off you need only use an air ratchet gun with the motor in first gear. I tried to use a strap wrench but it didn't have enough grip with my girly strength.

After that all you need is the rotor puller bolt from Motion Pro. See here! http://www.vfrdiscus...post__p__784968

[kaldek]

OK so here is a short discussion on LiFe batteries and this undercharging stator problem. The LFX Shorai batteries have much less capacity than a lead acid battery, but better peak current output per capacity rating.

So, to get 150 cranking amps out of a lead acid battery it needs to be about 7 amp/hours of capacity and therefore it weighs a lot. To get the same amps out of a LiFe battery you only need about four amp/hours of capacity, and the weight for that capacity is much less than for the similar capacity of lead acid.

So let's say your charging system is failing. Technically your bike should last LESS time before it stalls when using a Lithium battery because the capacity is less. However, it often averages out because while the basic capacity of the lead acid battery is higher, it has a a higher rate of voltage sag when high current is demanded of it.

For example if your bike is pulling 10 amps from the battery, a lithium battery may last longer because its output voltage won't crash as fast. It may have less capacity left in it than the lead acid battery, but the lead acid battery voltage dropped to, say, 9 volts already. And at this point your EFI system will shut down.

So here's the simple statement. Your Lithium battery may only have four amp hours of capacity in it (4000mAh), but you will get pretty much every drop out of it at full voltage (13+ volts) until almost the very end. Your lead acid battery may be 7 amp hours of capacity (7000mAh), but you won't get anywhere near that out of it before the output voltage drops off to less than 9 volts or so.

[spud786]

Kadlek

Your one of the few 20%, most have had major issues, but how many miles do you have on that battery, when you hit 45,000 miles trouble free, then we can have commentary, until then they are a waste of money, with what Ive seen thus far.

until that time, further discussion is pointless

[kaldek]

Also, they ripped me a new one for going with the Shorai battery instead of a much cheaper gel cell. They said the Shorai battery is probably half my problem as the power curve has a sharp drop off(?), I didn't really follow it all too well but basically they were saying that it's a race battery for race applications and no wonder I can't power all my stuff. In which case my thought was, well no battery is meant to run all the electrical stuff on its own, that's what the stator & r/r is for, right??

To put it mildly these guys are total dicks. "Race battery" my ass. It's a starter battery, ALL vehicle batteries are starter batteries and are not meant to ever provide power except during starting. Having said that, LiFe technology is much better at being asked to deep cycle than a lead acid starter battery is. You can discharge an LiFe battery at 150 amps till its flat or 10 amps until it's flat all day long and it will hold output voltage until discharged way better than lead acid technology can.

[kaldek]

Your one of the few 20%, most have had major issues, but how many miles do you have on that battery, when you hit 45,000 miles trouble free, then we can have commentary, until then they are a waste of money, with what Ive seen thus far.

I've got too much exposure to Lithium battery technology (LiPo and LiFe) to agree with all these people saying how their battery is the problem. I'm willing to hang my hat on the fact that these people either have overcharging problems (15+ volts) or undercharging problems. Overcharging in particular damages the Lithium battery chemistry.

[spud786]

all I can say, Ive yet to see the AGM's beat in trouble free operation for the longest period. Even the stock AGM comes up short over the ST1300 AGM in life. If you run electrical appliances,its the best bet.

I mean a battery should be totally trouble free for few years, and atleast over 40,000 miles. Ive not seen any lithiums do that on a motorcycle, maybe a camera , or computer.

But early results have not shown so great on the VFR, but my standard is over 45,000 miles to beat a st1300 AGM minimum.

[kaldek]

I mean a battery should be totally trouble free for few years, and atleast over 40,000 miles. Ive not seen any lithiums do that on a motorcycle, maybe a camera , or computer.

One of the problems here is that people class all Lithium batteries the same. Lithium Polymer (LiPo) is just not suitable for vehicles and wears out fast. This is what laptops/iPods/iPads/Cameras use. They also tend to suffer from thermal runaway and "explode" easily.

Lithium Ferrite (LiFe) however is much more stable but has lower energy density than LiPo. Also some people are building LiFe batteries for bikes out of power tool cells, which can mean the battery design doesn't work well in the heat and vibration environment of the bike. Ergo, they fail and then all LiFe batteries get lumped into the "these are crap" category.

Companies like Shorai are the guys doing it right.

[1TallTXn]

Kaldek, the part number you listed comes up at Service Honda, but doesn't list a status (in stock, discontinued, etc)

If I dig through the fiche, I find that that part number shows as discontinued but it only lists the winding, not the winding and the rotor.

Guess I ought to go visit the local Honda dealer and see what they have to say. Mine seems to be putting out ~10v

[kaldek]

Kaldek, the part number you listed comes up at Service Honda, but doesn't list a status (in stock, discontinued, etc)

If I dig through the fiche, I find that that part number shows as discontinued but it only lists the winding, not the winding and the rotor.

You're right, they've updated the part code (again!). It's now 31100-MCW-325, but has increased in price by $100!

[Tightwad]

Just going to chime in that the OPs problem was probably never his battery but rather his charging system as he has discovered. I am also running a LifePo battery in my bike, which I built myself, and it is great! My charging system loves it as well...much better than the crap AGM battery that had a weak cell from day 1...gotta love Yuasa...

For further clarification...there is no such thing as an ST1300 battery. ST1300 is a model of Honda bike. The battery used in that model is a 14 series which means it is physically bigger and thus has more capacity than the 12 series the VFR came with from the factory. Assuming your charging system is working as it should either battery will be just fine...of course I would opt for the more power route...but calling it an ST1300 battery is confusing and misinformative.

I am also going to say that while I love my LifePo battery (I run one in my Seadoo as well) I wouldn't suggest them for everyone as overcharging them is a quick way to pour money down the drain. Running them flat can do the same thing although the VFR will die before they get that low while riding.

[spud786]

Just going to chime in that the OPs problem was probably never his battery but rather his charging system as he has discovered. I am also running a LifePo battery in my bike, which I built myself, and it is great! My charging system loves it as well...much better than the crap AGM battery that had a weak cell from day 1...gotta love Yuasa...

For further clarification...there is no such thing as an ST1300 battery. ST1300 is a model of Honda bike. The battery used in that model is a 14 series which means it is physically bigger and thus has more capacity than the 12 series the VFR came with from the factory. Assuming your charging system is working as it should either battery will be just fine...of course I would opt for the more power route...but calling it an ST1300 battery is confusing and misinformative.

I am also going to say that while I love my LifePo battery (I run one in my Seadoo as well) I wouldn't suggest them for everyone as overcharging them is a quick way to pour money down the drain. Running them flat can do the same thing although the VFR will die before they get that low while riding.

Physically Bigger? you dont know what your talking about , some 3rd party junk might be physically bigger

The st1300 agm battery is identical in size as the vfr agm battery, its just much better battery with more cca and reserve power. Ive had both yuasa and the scorpion in the st1300 battery, exact fit and the same size.

The oem vfr agm battery is ok, but really the st1300 agm you can tell its the battery the vfr should have gotten in the first place.

When you get about 45 or 50,000 off the lithium, then maybe you have something, the Agms still provide the longest life with trouble free operation, and are far more proven longevity wise.

[Tightwad]

Just going to chime in that the OPs problem was probably never his battery but rather his charging system as he has discovered. I am also running a LifePo battery in my bike, which I built myself, and it is great! My charging system loves it as well...much better than the crap AGM battery that had a weak cell from day 1...gotta love Yuasa...

For further clarification...there is no such thing as an ST1300 battery. ST1300 is a model of Honda bike. The battery used in that model is a 14 series which means it is physically bigger and thus has more capacity than the 12 series the VFR came with from the factory. Assuming your charging system is working as it should either battery will be just fine...of course I would opt for the more power route...but calling it an ST1300 battery is confusing and misinformative.

I am also going to say that while I love my LifePo battery (I run one in my Seadoo as well) I wouldn't suggest them for everyone as overcharging them is a quick way to pour money down the drain. Running them flat can do the same thing although the VFR will die before they get that low while riding.

Physically Bigger? you dont know what your talking about , some 3rd party junk might be physically bigger

The st1300 agm battery is identical in size as the vfr agm battery, its just much better battery with more cca and reserve power. Ive had both yuasa and the scorpion in the st1300 battery, exact fit and the same size.

The oem vfr agm battery is ok, but really the st1300 agm you can tell its the battery the vfr should have gotten in the first place.

When you get about 45 or 50,000 off the lithium, then maybe you have something, the Agms still provide the longest life with trouble free operation, and are far more proven longevity wise.

You are right about the battery size...for some reason it was sticking in my head that the 12-BS was a slightly shorter battery.

Really my point was you have no first hand information from using the LiFePO batteries and even your AGM battery usage is restricted to fairly moderate weather riding on 1 bike. Most of the people who have had problems with the MOTY batteries live in much cooler climates. Mileage ridden is actually a detractor to your point of the longevity of your choice of battery. Batteries that get less use are abused more...riding daily will generally keep a battery running longer than those cases where the bike sits for a length of time.

[spud786]

Really my point was you have no first hand information from using the LiFePO batteries and even your AGM battery usage is restricted to fairly moderate weather riding on 1 bike.))

Ive been though several bikes with factory sealed agm batteries, 3 of those happen to be on the vfr. I can understand not being ridden is not good for a battery, they can sulfate quicker. True my first hand Lipo is only by those who have issue, quite a few, My experience with factory sealed AGM's, Ive yet to see anyone post big numbers, they consistantly get me around 45,000 mile, before the first signs of degrade.

Moderate cold, yes, rarely below the 30's but the temps reported by failure to start with liths were in the 40;s , but I have the opposite temp issue, Exteme Heat, car batteries here average failures every 5 years, but in the north they last much longer my my research and reporting. My garage in the summer even at midnight totally nakid, you'll sweatt like a dog, its well around 130 degrees during the day, not very good for a battery storage either. I think in a cooler climate, id get alot more life.

But every battery I install, I expect trouble free life for a long time barring neglect, All my sealed agms have yielded me consistantly well over 40,000 miles , before early signs of degrade(they still work) just not to my spec. But Ive not seen orHeard anyone reported such life with a Lipo.

Thats all im saying,

sure there will be guinie Pigs to find out, but as with the moty, some came away dissapointed. I'll stick with proven long life design till the numbers come in.