Had It With Vfr Electrics.

[spud786]

Mookie is 30 minutes from home. He just emailed me via the Crackberry.

Says his ABS light is now flashing. I responded that the ABS likely senses that it isn't receiveing enough juice to properly function.

HOpe his ride was decent.....

sounds like the 2002 stator upgrade wasnt done, I'm not sure which year they also beefed upon the wiring harness

[KanadianKen]

Looks like the Stator is the culprit...... for anyone following this one..... <_< at least he knows though.

[007]

update:

"Time of death 9:02. So I made it, but only to Surrey."

Said he was about to call CAA/AAA. Must mean his battery is completely drained. He'll likely get them to jump start him and he'll ride the next 10 minutes home - I hope!!!

Does he know how to bump start it?

Considering the FI light coming on when there isn't enough power to work it - isn't that counter-intuitive? Shouldn't there be a light that is on normally and goes off when it doesn't get enough juice to run?

[Tightwad]

bumpstarting only works when the charging system does, sounds like he drained the battery enough that nothing will work.

[KanadianKen]

bumpstarting only works when the charging system does, sounds like he drained the battery enough that nothing will work.

Yep - you got it....... a deep cycle battery it isn't...... :unsure:

[Rivcyko]

Mookie is 30 minutes from home. He just emailed me via the Crackberry.

Says his ABS light is now flashing. I responded that the ABS likely senses that it isn't receiveing enough juice to properly function.

HOpe his ride was decent.....

Wait till you see all the damn wiring, I added. You'll poop.

Do tell!!!!!! :thumbsup:

On topic: I'm sorry to hear all of this, Ken. That's what you get when you go twisting peoples arms. LOL. J/K I know you must feel terrible, about now. Try to look at it this way,.... once it is in the past, he's gonna have a blast, on the bike.

:unsure:

'Couse, there's the CCT's,....and the thermostat,......and the PCV,....and the,......

I Made all of the suggested wiring mods. Damn home made harness looks like a city power cable, all wrapped up. LOL.

30 amp fuse mod

Checked the starter relay

Blue connector mod

Tinyminds, added R/R power lines

Zam's grounding, (To the frames, R/R, and R/R connector)

Monitor wire mod, (on the R/R side of the connector)

Dielectric on everything, (Started that venture last year)

Knock on wood. Had know major problems, to start, I look'n to not have any in the future.

http://media.putfile.com/6th-gen-elec-mods

[thx1139]

In his hotel parking lot he's done the blue connector fix, and the monitor wire fix.

Says his ABS light is now flashing. I responded that the ABS likely senses that it isn't receiveing enough juice to properly function...

The "monitor wire fix" does not fix anything. It bypasses /de-activates an important component of the electrical system.

Jumping the monitor straight to the battery can produce or worsen a low-voltage condition at other locations in the harness. Possibly during an extended ride thru British Columbia... :unsure:

[jeremy556]

In his hotel parking lot he's done the blue connector fix, and the monitor wire fix.

Says his ABS light is now flashing. I responded that the ABS likely senses that it isn't receiveing enough juice to properly function...

The "monitor wire fix" does not fix anything. It bypasses /de-activates an important component of the electrical system.

Jumping the monitor straight to the battery can produce or worsen a low-voltage condition at other locations in the harness. Possibly during an extended ride thru British Columbia... :unsure:

Nope, sorry, wrong.

I have first hand person experience with half a dozen 6th gen VFRs that were having over charging problems because of the monitor wire problem that were all solved with the monitor wire fix.

I went through 2 stators and 3 R/Rs on my bike trying to fix my over charging problem that was causing my ABS light to flash, fuses and headlights to blow, and the battery whistling.

With any of those R/Rs connected with the monitor wire on the harness, with high beams on at 5500rpm the R/R was kicking out over 16 volts. With the monitor wire connected to the positive battery terminal, my voltage is ALWAYS within 2/10ths of a volt of 14.4.

When the R/R was putting out 16+ volts when measured at the battery, the voltage on the monitor wire was <10 volts. The voltage on the main R/R wires as well as at the headlights were 16+ volts.

If you cut open the wiring harness, you will see that the monitor wire is about 12” long and is crimped onto the 2 positive leads from the R/R, despite what the schematic shows.

ETA:

[thx1139]

When the R/R was putting out 16+ volts when measured at the battery, the voltage on the monitor wire was <10 volts. The voltage on the main R/R wires as well as at the headlights were 16+ volts.

ahh... ya. That is exactly the point. Resistance at a connection in the harness caused the problem. 6+ volt drop is a big problem.

Jumping the wire only treats the symptom. In your case, luckily, it was the actual monitor wire splice. If it were elsewhere, voltage would still be low after the point of the bad connection. But you would see acceptable voltage at the battery, because nothing else is in the sensor loop.

To actually fix it repair the circuit. De-activating the sensor because of a bad splice = cutting off the nose to spite Soichiro's face?

You won't get arguement from me that the splices ( :unsure: crimped!!!) and connectors Honda chose aren't utterly lame; but we can't just ignore them.

[checksix]

If you cut open the wiring harness, you will see that the monitor wire is about 12” long and is crimped onto the 2 positive leads from the R/R, despite what the schematic shows.

Hmm. So is it the resistance at the crimp connection that was the culprit? If so, why not just solder it rather than bypassing it?

[jeremy556]

If you cut open the wiring harness, you will see that the monitor wire is about 12” long and is crimped onto the 2 positive leads from the R/R, despite what the schematic shows.

Hmm. So is it the resistance at the crimp connection that was the culprit? If so, why not just solder it rather than bypassing it?

I didn't know it was the crimp connection when I did it, I just found the low voltage condition on the monitor wire and bypassed it. It was later that Ken cut up a spare wire harness and found Honda's wonderful crimp connections.

[jeremy556]

When the R/R was putting out 16+ volts when measured at the battery, the voltage on the monitor wire was <10 volts. The voltage on the main R/R wires as well as at the headlights were 16+ volts.

ahh... ya. That is exactly the point. Resistance at a connection in the harness caused the problem. 6+ volt drop is a big problem.

Jumping the wire only treats the symptom. In your case, luckily, it was the actual monitor wire splice. If it were elsewhere, voltage would still be low after the point of the bad connection. But you would see acceptable voltage at the battery, because nothing else is in the sensor loop.

To actually fix it repair the circuit. De-activating the sensor because of a bad splice = cutting off the nose to spite Soichiro's face?

You won't get arguement from me that the splices ( :unsure: crimped!!!) and connectors Honda chose aren't utterly lame; but we can't just ignore them.

I haven’t deactivated the sensor; I simply replaced the faulty wiring to it. With Honda’s wiring, that monitor wire goes 12 inches before it splices into a wire that is connected directly to the battery (through the main 30 amp fuse), I just ran a new wire from the battery (my fuse block actually) to the R/R. :thumbsup:

[KanadianKen]

I just pulled the extra wiring harness that I took all the black tape off of - to have another look. THe Monitor wire "fix" is doing ABSOLUTELY nothing to the integrity of the electrical systems design. As Jeremy just said - he just "Repaired" the connection from the RR to the positive battery connection. No sensors are being disabled.

THe only way I would agree that this "fix" we have done is not appropriate - is if someone can tell me EXACTLY what the all the crimp connections do to the voltage as it flows from the battery to the RR, through the 3 or 4 connections that are not soldered. If there is supposed to be a specific voltage drop - then I would agree that the monitor wire fix is not a good choice; however - my question is rhetorical. Each crimp is different, and the voltage drops across each connection point will not be equal.

I did the monitor wire fix, I told my buddy MOokie to do it, and I reinforced Viperon to do it as well. I stand by the "fix" as simple as it is, and will leave it exactly how it is.

ITs a good direct route to get voltage reading from the battery to the RR - RELIABLY.

:thumbsup:

[Rivcyko]

When the R/R was putting out 16+ volts when measured at the battery, the voltage on the monitor wire was <10 volts. The voltage on the main R/R wires as well as at the headlights were 16+ volts.

ahh... ya. That is exactly the point. Resistance at a connection in the harness caused the problem. 6+ volt drop is a big problem.

Jumping the wire only treats the symptom. In your case, luckily, it was the actual monitor wire splice. If it were elsewhere, voltage would still be low after the point of the bad connection. But you would see acceptable voltage at the battery, because nothing else is in the sensor loop.

To actually fix it repair the circuit. De-activating the sensor because of a bad splice = cutting off the nose to spite Soichiro's face?

You won't get arguement from me that the splices ( crimped!!!) and connectors Honda chose aren't utterly lame; but we can't just ignore them.

Agreed, but,........... Nothing personal, just seemed the way to go, for me.

ITs a good direct route to get voltage reading from the battery to the RR - RELIABLY.

:thumbsup:

And I wasn't much for tearing apart the harness, to MAYBE fix the problem. I figured I'm better off doubling my chances, of not having to worry about it.

Thanks to all who, put the time into figuring all of this garbage out.

:unsure:

Ken, I love the fact that you put Jack's likeness, in your signature!!!

[KanadianKen]

Ken, I love the fact that you put Jack's likeness, in your signature!!!

After I watched your tribute again, the other night, I felt it was very appropriate......

I'm a very fortunate Bastage........ :thumbsup:

[KanadianKen]

Here's a funny, I just checked and my VIN plate is NOT stamped or punched (I have an 02 - the year that the recall was floated). From what I can tell - that means that my bike never had the alternator upgrade, or if it did - they never punched the tag. I was told by a dealer just after I bought the bike - that it needed the subframe recall fix done, but that was all. I 'll push the Alternator issue - big time!!! Sub frame - not so much........

Monday I'll be calling to make an appointment with a local GTA dealer.

Hmmmmmm - I might get an upgrade to the alternator, gratis!!! I might also ask them to get me the parts only, and I'll do the install. I can only hope! :thumbsup:

[thx1139]

Hmm. So is it the resistance at the crimp connection that was the culprit? If so, why not just solder it rather than bypassing it?

In Jeremy's case it was; so soldering those joints would resolve it. (I'd solder any mechanical-crimp splice if it needed it or not!) :o

But what if the resistance had been at the R/R plug contacts? Bypassing the monitor would have "solved" this situation as well, bringing charging voltage back into line as read at the battery. -except there would still be resistance at the R/R connector dropping voltage to the rest of the harness. A condition that would only get worse over time. (ask the Gen4 people about melted R/R connectors...) The battery can tolerate a fair amount of voltage variation, but FI and ABS electronics are different story...

Even the best mechanical connections will have some voltage drop. How much drop is variable according to temperature, which goes up with current. The monitor wire is non load-bearing, so very little current. Sensing voltage just 12 inches past the R/R connector still gives a more accurate picture of system volts than previous model R/Rs which sensed voltage internally, oblivious to ALL the drops.

Has it been established that every 6gen splices the sensor wire a foot downstream of the R/R? It was my recollection that this was seen on older VTECs, while newer ones were found to be as depicted in the shop manual diagram (making the monitor wire even more important).

It's not a typo error; Blackbird 1100xx and RC51 sp2 manuals show the same circuit configuration. :warranty:

[KanadianKen]

I have the entire wiring from an 02 in my garage - what photos would you like to see that could help convince you of the 12 inch lead - going to the 2 positive battery cables?

???

[jeremy556]

But what if the resistance had been at the R/R plug contacts? Bypassing the monitor would have "solved" this situation as well, bringing charging voltage back into line as read at the battery. -except there would still be resistance at the R/R connector dropping voltage to the rest of the harness. A condition that would only get worse over time. (ask the Gen4 people about melted R/R connectors...) The battery can tolerate a fair amount of voltage variation, but FI and ABS electronics are different story...

I agree with you there, but every instance I have seen has been the same. The problem and voltage drop has been isolated to the monitor wire itself, while the R/R connectors and the voltage in all of the rest of the electrical system is constant.

Has it been established that every 6gen splices the sensor wire a foot downstream of the R/R? It was my recollection that this was seen on older VTECs, while newer ones were found to be as depicted in the shop manual diagram (making the monitor wire even more important).

It's not a typo error; Blackbird 1100xx and RC51 sp2 manuals show the same circuit configuration. :warranty:

The service manual for all years 02+ have the same schematics and wiring diagrams. The wiring has however, been modified over the years according to members who have had different years apart side by side to compare. For how common this monitor wire problem is, I would have to think Honda has learned of it by now, but on at least up to 04 bikes it was not corrected.

Here is an image copied from the 02 service manual which obviously does not match up with the actual wiring harness that is installed in the bikes. Notice the monitor wire continues through the main connector and then onto the ignition circuit, but is actually crimped into the Red/White wires a few inches away from the R/R and never even goes as far as the main harness connector. Perhaps the service manual was made from the original design before some bean counters went over it to see if they could cut costs?

[Rivcyko]

Hmm. So is it the resistance at the crimp connection that was the culprit? If so, why not just solder it rather than bypassing it?

In Jeremy's case it was; so soldering those joints would resolve it. (I'd solder any mechanical-crimp splice if it needed it or not!) :o

But what if the resistance had been at the R/R plug contacts? Bypassing the monitor would have "solved" this situation as well, bringing charging voltage back into line as read at the battery. -except there would still be resistance at the R/R connector dropping voltage to the rest of the harness. A condition that would only get worse over time. (ask the Gen4 people about melted R/R connectors...) The battery can tolerate a fair amount of voltage variation, but FI and ABS electronics are different story...

Even the best mechanical connections will have some voltage drop. How much drop is variable according to temperature, which goes up with current. The monitor wire is non load-bearing, so very little current. Sensing voltage just 12 inches past the R/R connector still gives a more accurate picture of system volts than previous model R/Rs which sensed voltage internally, oblivious to ALL the drops.

Has it been established that every 6gen splices the sensor wire a foot downstream of the R/R? It was my recollection that this was seen on older VTECs, while newer ones were found to be as depicted in the shop manual diagram (making the monitor wire even more important).

It's not a typo error; Blackbird 1100xx and RC51 sp2 manuals show the same circuit configuration. :warranty:

I am an electrical dumb-ass. This is why I did the 20-30-30 fuses. Just to be able to check, if it is pull'n too much resistance. MY system was fine before, seems better now. Now I can sit at a light, high beams on, turnsignal on, cooling fan on, and not lose a charge.

I suppose if the connection were prone to corrosion, it would be of more concern. Since it is loss, from the crimp itself, not corroding, I'm happy.

[thx1139]

Here is an image copied from the 02 service manual which obviously does not match up with the actual wiring harness that is installed in the bikes. Notice the monitor wire continues through the main connector and then onto the ignition circuit, but is actually crimped into the Red/White wires a few inches away from the R/R and never even goes as far as the main harness connector. Perhaps the service manual was made from the original design before some bean counters went over it to see if they could cut costs?

That's entirely plausible. One story behind the G4's legendary R/R serial-killings is that originally the subframe was to be made of aluminum. Somewhere the material got downgraded to steel, cheaper but not as thermally conductive. The R/R spec was left unchanged however, so they burn 'em up like David Koresh. Totally believable considering CBR600F4s have a similar, fin-less R/R hiding under the cowl plastic, yet they DID get an alloy subframe; and regulator reliablility seems not to be an issue with them.

How many ieterations of the VTEC harness have been observed? I'm familliar with the configuration in that diagram; my '96 is retrofitted with a G6 R/R and the monitor circuit follows the diagrams exactly. Been working flawlessly now for I-don't-know-how-many thousands of miles. You can bet all the connections are soldered! :warranty:

[Rivcyko]

Here is an image copied from the 02 service manual which obviously does not match up with the actual wiring harness that is installed in the bikes. Notice the monitor wire continues through the main connector and then onto the ignition circuit, but is actually crimped into the Red/White wires a few inches away from the R/R and never even goes as far as the main harness connector. Perhaps the service manual was made from the original design before some bean counters went over it to see if they could cut costs?

That's entirely plausible. One story behind the G4's legendary R/R serial-killings is that originally the subframe was to be made of aluminum. Somewhere the material got downgraded to steel, cheaper but not as thermally conductive. The R/R spec was left unchanged however, so they burn 'em up like David Koresh. Totally believable considering CBR600F4s have a similar, fin-less R/R hiding under the cowl plastic, yet they DID get an alloy subframe; and regulator reliablility seems not to be an issue with them.

Had a friends f4 R/R go on him at mid-Ohio, last year. D-oh! Good thing a truck haul was only a few hrs away.

This is why I grounded, where I did. On the frame and sub-frame. (Try'n to split the difference). LOL.

You can bet all the connections are soldered! :warranty:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[SEBSPEED]

That's entirely plausible. One story behind the G4's legendary R/R serial-killings is that originally the subframe was to be made of aluminum. Somewhere the material got downgraded to steel, cheaper but not as thermally conductive. The R/R spec was left unchanged however, so they burn 'em up like David Koresh. Totally believable considering CBR600F4s have a similar, fin-less R/R hiding under the cowl plastic, yet they DID get an alloy subframe; and regulator reliability seems not to be an issue with them.

Funny you say that. My F4i(2001), has a huge finned unit on it's aluminum subframe. Maybe they finally woke up? Or they decided there would be more load on the system with the extra components(fuel injection)??

*shrugs*

[Rivcyko]

LOL. Funny thing is,..."It's a Honda". LOL. SHOULDN't even be an issue. Thank god, for you guys.

[billyjackjimbob]

Wire harness + bump starts =... wait for it..... cat fire= seven weeks and $5500 worth of work. (people... go buy the extended war. if you still can.) Most people on here know that I know what I'm talking about here.... If the VFR was not the PERFECT bike for me while riding... I would NOT have bought another one. But it is... and I did not hesitate to buy my 07, along with the ext. war.

Kevin