What Is Cupping

[Guest porgie84]

I think my front stock tires are cupping, but is cupping concave or convex? in-e or out-e? ect. what causes cupping? is it time for new tires? i have over 4k on these tires (tyres as peeps in the uk say)

[Lifesaver]

To help you,

Cupping sucks, and is the sole reason why I will not ever again use Dunlops...

Hop that helpd. All other brands are OK! Just Dunz... They SUCCKK!

IAN

[skuuter]

Before replacing the factory "Battle-asses" on my 06 VFR, the front had cupped terribly at only 2800 miles(not a lot for my tire life).......I rode them and put-up-with-it until the rear rubber was paper thin and time to have to be replaced(I'm also tight, and gonna' get that last mile out). The cupping definetly affects the handling of the bike drastically. Let off the throttle and let go of the bars and I had a terrible head-shake...bike would feel like it "fell" off center when leaning into turns and much slower at transitioning from right-left-right through twisties. Even simple traffic light stopping sent vibrations through the bars. If you can afford it already, replace em'. If you need to run em' longer, pay close attention to what changes the cupping has made in your bike and adjust your riding accordingly.......might I also suggest Michelin Pilot Powers as replacements. Check the front PP to make sure it doesn't say "made in France" on it(factory recall at present)................. :thumbsup: :blink:

[Darth Bling]

When a front tire wears out, it doesn't wear evenly. There are two main forces at work on the front wheel: braking and turning. When you're not doing either, you front tire just sits out there rolling along. Hardly any wear happens when cruising around in a straight line.

Now when you brake, you put a lot of stress on the tire and it wears a flat spot in the middle. And when you change directions, your tire is trying to stop the bike from going in a straight line (due to inertra) as you change direction. This wears out the sides of the tire.

So, what does this do to the profile of your front tire:

Yup, it gives it a cup shape: hence the term cupping. ^_^

[superfunkomatic]

i guess that would make mine 'saucered' since i have about a 2.5 flat spot on my rear tire.

When a front tire wears out, it doesn't wear evenly. There are two main forces at work on the front wheel: braking and turning. When you're not doing either, you front tire just sits out there rolling along. Hardly any wear happens when cruising around in a straight line.

Now when you brake, you put a lot of stress on the tire and it wears a flat spot in the middle. And when you change directions, your tire is trying to stop the bike from going in a straight line (due to inertra) as you change direction. This wears out the sides of the tire.

So, what does this do to the profile of your front tire:

Yup, it gives it a cup shape: hence the term cupping. ^_^

[Guest]

When a front tire wears out, it doesn't wear evenly. There are two main forces at work on the front wheel: braking and turning. When you're not doing either, you front tire just sits out there rolling along. Hardly any wear happens when cruising around in a straight line.

Now when you brake, you put a lot of stress on the tire and it wears a flat spot in the middle. And when you change directions, your tire is trying to stop the bike from going in a straight line (due to inertra) as you change direction. This wears out the sides of the tire.

So, what does this do to the profile of your front tire:

Yup, it gives it a cup shape: hence the term cupping. ^_^

thats just wear on the tires isnt it? mine look like it has blisters that bulge out a little where the tread lines are. I would post pics but im at work right now

[dutchinterceptor]

Here's a bit of information on tire wear. Scroll down for info about cupping.

[Darth Bling]

Here's a bit of information on tire wear. Scroll down for info about cupping.

Wow, I was just about the post that exact same link. Good stuff there. :thumbsup:

[Guest]

great site! :thumbsup: i owe you a drink if we ever meet. So i guess its time for a new pair of shoes pretty soon. i'm going to san fran this weekend so i'll probably get them after that.

what tires should i get!

JK!! that would be a no no on my part if i made a thread on that

[Beck]

i guess that would make mine 'saucered' since i have about a 2.5 flat spot on my rear tire.

When a front tire wears out, it doesn't wear evenly. There are two main forces at work on the front wheel: braking and turning. When you're not doing either, you front tire just sits out there rolling along. Hardly any wear happens when cruising around in a straight line.

Now when you brake, you put a lot of stress on the tire and it wears a flat spot in the middle. And when you change directions, your tire is trying to stop the bike from going in a straight line (due to inertra) as you change direction. This wears out the sides of the tire.

So, what does this do to the profile of your front tire:

Yup, it gives it a cup shape: hence the term cupping. ^_^

Hmm... I don't think your illustration accurately shows what cupping is.

My experience has been that you get a sort of alternating bump/depression (scalloping) at boths sides of the tire's tread, which follows the tire's tread patterns, with the middle of the tire minimally affected compared with the side treads. Your drawing shows wear mostly at the middle which might be more like the wear you get if you travel mostly straight on highways putting the flat wear on the crown of the tire's circumference. It also looks like underinflation wear pattern that you are showing.

Beck

95 VFR

[Blue Viffer]

If any of you guys watched the ama races this weekend and heard Freddie Spencer talk about the speed differential of the front tire when it is straight up and down and leaned over due to the different circumfrence, then you might begin to understand the forces of wear on the front tire. If you never leaned the bike over you would not get the cupping that we all do. but the minute you lean over the small diameter of the side of the tire has to imediately speed up or slow down to catch up with the speed of the bike.

So how much scuffing do you think comes into play with this speeding up and slowing down as you go through a turn?

If some of you think I am out in left field go back and listen to the announcers at this last ama race at ohio during the 2nd superbike race Freddie talks about it.

vince

[enzed_viffer]

I have a pet theory (unproven, alas!) that running cupping-prone tyres like BT-020s and Dunslops at a higher pressure (say, 38-40 psi) will reduce cupping somewhat, due to less deformation of the tread and carcase. Unfortunately, I'm not willing to put a BT020 on the front of my bike again, so I'll never know.

I *do* know that the Avon Azaro AV49-SP on the VFR is a lot happier at this pressure, as it helps to stiffen its softer carcase and stops it wandering and feeling like it's flopping into corners.

[Guest]

i guess that would make mine 'saucered' since i have about a 2.5 flat spot on my rear tire.

When a front tire wears out, it doesn't wear evenly. There are two main forces at work on the front wheel: braking and turning. When you're not doing either, you front tire just sits out there rolling along. Hardly any wear happens when cruising around in a straight line.

Now when you brake, you put a lot of stress on the tire and it wears a flat spot in the middle. And when you change directions, your tire is trying to stop the bike from going in a straight line (due to inertra) as you change direction. This wears out the sides of the tire.

So, what does this do to the profile of your front tire:

Yup, it gives it a cup shape: hence the term cupping. ^_^

Hmm... I don't think your illustration accurately shows what cupping is.

My experience has been that you get a sort of alternating bump/depression (scalloping) at boths sides of the tire's tread, which follows the tire's tread patterns, with the middle of the tire minimally affected compared with the side treads. Your drawing shows wear mostly at the middle which might be more like the wear you get if you travel mostly straight on highways putting the flat wear on the crown of the tire's circumference. It also looks like underinflation wear pattern that you are showing.

Beck

95 VFR

Yep. That's just normal wear. Cupping is an indentation on the leading edge of each tread. You can see it and feel it with you fingers. Or toes.

I'm on my second or third set of metzler M6s and have had no cupping problems. Yes to all the comments about Dunlaps.

[Guest]

Most of my riding is in the twisties. My last three bikes, 929RR, BMW R1150RT and my favorite, the '00 VFR all cupped the front tires. The way I understand it, the cupping is wear on either side of the center of the tire. When the wear on the side of the tire exceeds that in the center, the tire begins to have a pointed cross-section...actually flat on both sides. This causes the bike to want to turn in more aggressively...sometimes to the extent that it takes back pressure on the outside grip to keep the bike from diving too deeply into the turn. It's especially noticeable in low speed maneuvering. The RT cupped the tire the most of all the bikes and actually cupped more on the left side than the right....? I'm working on my fourth set of tires in the last 18 months on the viffer. The first D208's didn't last long and cupped badly. Next set were Pirelli Diablo Stradas, but were too hard and I could tell that I was close to the edge of grip on the front so I switched to a Diablo for the front....it was a great combo but it cupped badly as well. When I changed it, the front was down to the bottom of the tread on the sides and still had 3/16" left in the center. Two weeks ago I changed both to Pirelli Corsa II's. Once I had them broke in, I couldn't believe the grip and the feel....but, with only about 1k miles on them, I already notice a tendency for the bike to want to turn in...not neutral like a fresh tire. In all cases, the rear tire wear is almost even across the tread, ultimately wearing most in the center...thanks, probably, to hard acceleration.

When a street bike turns it is rotating around a vertical axis and is accelerating towards the center of a circle. This centripetal acceleration has to be caused by a force...that force is applied by friction between the pavement and the tires. The side of the front tire takes the combined side load caused by the centripetal acceleration plus the braking load, both of which can be shown as force vectors. If the resultant force caused by the two load vectors exceeds the tires grip it begins to skid. If that happens suddenly, it usually results in a low side. The rotational acceleration of the tire..what Freddie Spencer was talking about, actually adds a third force vector because as the bike leans the wheels rotational velocity has to increase, i.e, it accelerates...which has to be caused by a force...which once again comes from the friction on the side of the tire. Sorry for the physics lecture, but the cupping is to be expected because the front tires have to work so hard at turning the bike. The amount of cupping is dependent to a great extent on several factors, most importantly are where and how hard you ride and your technique. Also, tire hardness, tire pressure and tread pattern certainly contribute to the mix. So, if you ride mostly in the twisties...you ride aggressively and trial brake hard into the turns you're probably going to wear out the side of the front before the center goes. It's the price we pay to ride motorcycles....$250 every 4000 miles or so. It's worth it to me.

shotgun21

[skuuter]

I have a pet theory (unproven, alas!) that running cupping-prone tyres like BT-020s and Dunslops at a higher pressure (say, 38-40 psi) will reduce cupping somewhat, due to less deformation of the tread and carcase. Unfortunately, I'm not willing to put a BT020 on the front of my bike again, so I'll never know.

I *do* know that the Avon Azaro AV49-SP on the VFR is a lot happier at this pressure, as it helps to stiffen its softer carcase and stops it wandering and feeling like it's flopping into corners.

I have done extensive "seat-of-the-pants" testing of your theory over the years and (IMO) I totally agree with you. Higher air pressures than most on this forum is one of the reasons I get much better tire wear than most. Add in my less-aggressive pace, and learned smooth throttle action, I have all the traction I need without distorting the tire as much with a lower air pressure. Granted as the pace goes up the air pressure needs to come down for added traction at the price of accelerated tire wear and cupping. So far, even with less air than I normally run, Pilot Powers haven't cupped any. Bridgestones/ Dunlops have always cupped on everything I ran them on......extra air only made the problem take longer to rear it's ugly head.......... :thumbsup:

[jeremy556]

I don’t understand what the big perceived problem with cupping is. I think any tire you use with a tread pattern is going to experience cupping. My Powers, M1s, and M3s have all cupped both front and rear, but they have never caused a handling problem.

When riding aggressively with lower than stock air pressures (track, gap, etc), my rear tire will be cupped to the point that one edge of a tread block is past the wear bars while the other side still looks new within 50 miles.

The only time it has ever presented a problem for me was when I ran Pilot Roads, and when leaned over the bars would oscillate bad enough that I would change the front tire with more than 50% tread left on it (so much for saving money on longer wearing tires).

It is hard to photograph, but here is a slightly cupped front tire. The cupping seems to mostly go away as the tire wears out and it gets closer to being a slick.

[Darth Bling]

Hmm... I don't think your illustration accurately shows what cupping is.

My experience has been that you get a sort of alternating bump/depression (scalloping) at boths sides of the tire's tread, which follows the tire's tread patterns, with the middle of the tire minimally affected compared with the side treads. Your drawing shows wear mostly at the middle which might be more like the wear you get if you travel mostly straight on highways putting the flat wear on the crown of the tire's circumference. It also looks like underinflation wear pattern that you are showing.

Yep. That's just normal wear. Cupping is an indentation on the leading edge of each tread. You can see it and feel it with you fingers. Or toes.

I'm on my second or third set of metzler M6s and have had no cupping problems. Yes to all the comments about Dunlaps.

Interesting. I've never heard the term cupping refer to those indentations. I've always heard them called scalloping, but never cupping. Likewise, I've always heard the term cupping referred to normal tire wear.

[skuuter]

I don’t understand what the big perceived problem with cupping is. I think any tire you use with a tread pattern is going to experience cupping. My Powers, M1s, and M3s have all cupped both front and rear, but they have never caused a handling problem.

When riding aggressively with lower than stock air pressures (track, gap, etc), my rear tire will be cupped to the point that one edge of a tread block is past the wear bars while the other side still looks new within 50 miles.

The only time it has ever presented a problem for me was when I ran Pilot Roads, and when leaned over the bars would oscillate bad enough that I would change the front tire with more than 50% tread left on it (so much for saving money on longer wearing tires).

It is hard to photograph, but here is a slightly cupped front tire. The cupping seems to mostly go away as the tire wears out and it gets closer to being a slick.

I agree that anytime you add "tread" you're gonna' have cupping to some degree(some tires have been much worse than others for me), but do you never get any of the problems I listed in my post #3 Jeremy ? Yeah, I know there's no reason for me to remove both hands from the bars on deceleration, but I've learned to use it as an "early" test that the problem is starting to develope............. :rolleyes:

[jeremy556]

I agree that anytime you add "tread" you're gonna' have cupping to some degree(some tires have been much worse than others for me), but do you never get any of the problems I listed in my post #3 Jeremy ? Yeah, I know there's no reason for me to remove both hands from the bars on deceleration, but I've learned to use it as an "early" test that the problem is starting to develope............. :rolleyes:

Only when I used PRoads, I have had no problems with any sport tires I have used. All the sport tires still cup, but the bars don't oscillate or anything like they did on the PRoads.

[Baileyrock]

"Cupping"

If you don't know the women, doing so will most likely get you slapped or more! :rolleyes:

Dunlops are the worst, then some BS. Diablos and Pilot Powers don't really cup.

[shrek]

I've been running Dunlops for a lot of years and I've never had the problems that you guys are talking about. As posted above I pretty much only ride twisties/track and I've never been bashful about changing tires or spending money. That said, I get about 4000 miles from a set of Qualifiers(which is about average). Maybe I'm generating more rubber boogers off of the tire(29psi front, 31 rear)? Dunno but it pains me to hear such awful thing said about Dunlops.

[jeremy556]

I've been running Dunlops for a lot of years and I've never had the problems that you guys are talking about. As posted above I pretty much only ride twisties/track and I've never been bashful about changing tires or spending money. That said, I get about 4000 miles from a set of Qualifiers(which is about average). Maybe I'm generating more rubber boogers off of the tire(29psi front, 31 rear)? Dunno but it pains me to hear such awful thing said about Dunlops.

I think they are referring to the ST Dunlops, not the qualifiers.

I have only ridden a few miles on qualifiers on a 07 600RR and I liked them very much during that short ride.

[Guest]

Hey Shrek,

How do you like the qualifiers on your VFR?

I used to run those on my SV650S and absolutely loved them. I will be ready for new tires soon and keep leaning that way.....

Hope this isn't considered a thread hijack! <_<

[Baileyrock]

I've been running Dunlops for a lot of years and I've never had the problems that you guys are talking about. As posted above I pretty much only ride twisties/track and I've never been bashful about changing tires or spending money. That said, I get about 4000 miles from a set of Qualifiers(which is about average). Maybe I'm generating more rubber boogers off of the tire(29psi front, 31 rear)? Dunno but it pains me to hear such awful thing said about Dunlops.

I think they are referring to the ST Dunlops, not the qualifiers.

I have only ridden a few miles on qualifiers on a 07 600RR and I liked them very much during that short ride.

Not referring to Qualifiers, there a vg tire and Dunlops best effort Sport tire wise, just don't last as long as Pilot Powers and feel no better IMO.

Yes, mostly talking about the stock 204/205 ST tires.

Don't recall any of the 5-6 sets of 207's I ran through cupping, but they Sucked in the wet.

[shrek]

I love my Qualifiers. Everyone who's ridden my VFR also ends up loving them.

FWIW I also run those on my TL1000R track bike. They stick really well and the handling is totally predictable even when over heated. The wear pattern is pretty good too. I get about 4000MI out of a set or 4 track days...which ever comes first. YMMV.

I felt the PPs were a little more greasy...I never felt confident with them.

Dunno about the wet...it doesn't rain here :D