Let's say you bought a 6th gen with issues...

[WDIV]

Thanks guys, I'll give that a shot this week when I get a chance (sundays are never good).

[Grum]

Had another thought. Its a fairly short cable run from the fuse to the left radiator see if you can follow that cabling over to the fan having a good look for damage wiring.

ALSO......Because you stated the PO has been fiddling in the fuse box area!

If you can,  have a very close inspection of the underneath wiring connections to the Fuse Box, there's a lot stuffed into this small area, there might be something obvious close to shorting at the Fan Fuse position. Who knows what the previous owner may have messed with? Might be best to disconnect a battery lead when doing this.

[WDIV]

22 hours ago, Grum said:

Yep, more than one way to skin a cat!

So if you have a multimeter set it to Buzzer mode or lowest ohms range. Clip the black lead to battery negative or known good ground. Red lead probing the fan Black/Blue power wire. Ignition to OFF.

Move around the wiring seeing if you can induce the short ie. hearing the Buzzer or ohms drop to very low.

 

 

Did this. Shook the ever living snot out of the handlebars/headstock. Nothing. UGH.

 

Rolled the bike into the driveway to run it until the thermostat opened and then the fan kicked on. 175 for the thermostat (the temps started dropping which I expected until all the coolant heats up and then at 180 like 5 minutes later... fan kicked on no big deal. I hopped on and started  having a spastic fit on the bike to shake everything and hopefully move something to cause something and... nothing. Double UGH.

 

[WDIV]

21 hours ago, Grum said:

Had another thought. Its a fairly short cable run from the fuse to the left radiator see if you can follow that cabling over to the fan having a good look for damage wiring.

ALSO......Because you stated the PO has been fiddling in the fuse box area!

If you can,  have a very close inspection of the underneath wiring connections to the Fuse Box, there's a lot stuffed into this small area, there might be something obvious close to shorting at the Fan Fuse position. Who knows what the previous owner may have messed with? Might be best to disconnect a battery lead when doing this.

I'm very seriously thinking about running a fresh cable over just to see if that doesn't mitigate the issue.

I also ordered a used harness off of ebay to pull the fuse box from as a just in case back to every crazy idea that's popped in my head about this.

[WDIV]

On 4/15/2023 at 6:15 PM, Grum said:

Ultimately if you're confident the fan is good

I am not 100% confident of that so... new fan will FINALLY be here on Tuesday. I had 4 good days of riding before it popped again so I'm really hoping the fan motor has a short in it or something. I guess we'll see after I swap it. This has been an ordeal.

 

On the progress size, the relay is in place for the volt meter now and working swimmingly. A small win is a win!

[WDIV]

New fan went in and I ran the normal test in the driveway. Thermostat opens at 176, fan kicks on once the temp rises again to 190. She spun up perfectly and everything seems normal. I'll do this every day this week and get back to commuting next week. We'll see if the fuse pops. If it doesn't, I'll assume this mystery has been solved. If it does, I'm going to wire the hot side to it's own circuit outside of the fuse box and skip the wiring harness altogether. Not ideal but it's something.

 

 

[WDIV]

Since the new fan motor went in... the bike has seemed like it's pretty normal on temps! It's been kicking on with no weird fuse pops for no reason! Huzzah!

 

That said... now that I've been commuting in warmer weather, I found a new thing it likes to do lol. So when cruising between 3-5k rpm, sometimes it feels like I cut the throttle and then roll it back on. Over a second or two. It's really weird. I've been looking online for what might cause this "surging" that most people seem to call it so... new spark plugs ordered, new fuel filter ordered, and I need to take the time to figure out what the previous owner did besides delete the snorkel mod and leave a bunch of capped/tapped off vacuum looking lines. *facepalm*

All of that said, I still really like this bike 🤣

[bmart]

I'd look at the physical stuff first, starting with chain/sprockets, before moving into the standard air/fuel/spark. 

[WDIV]

On 5/13/2023 at 1:25 PM, bmart said:

I'd look at the physical stuff first, starting with chain/sprockets, before moving into the standard air/fuel/spark. 

 

Chain and sprockets are in good condition but the feeling was definitely not chain/sprockets. 

 

I've read way too many oddball threads pointing to a lean cruise situation thanks to Honda's mapping so of course I want to change as many things as I can so I can  never figure out the issue 🤣 (joking, of course).

That said, I'd never felt the surging until I threw these new pipes on so... I ordered a PC6 hoping to richen the mix up a bit and help and two days into the PC being installed and the bike is smoother overall. Very interesting. I know in the car that I own, adding something as simple as headers can cause it to run lean and a tune is not optional but now i"m wondering if I'm not in the same boat with the VFR.

[WDIV]

New issue lol. It's made this sound twice and I have ZERO idea what it is. Halp!

 

 

[Grum]

Can you explain your actions. You appear to be going to the Kill Switch then back to Ignition Switch!

The ticking sound appeared to be there at one point with Ignition to off.!

Confusing.

Can you do another video leaving the Kill Switch to RUN. Only operate the Ignition Switch.

 

Suspicious of poor power connections for EFI via the Engine Stop Relay.

Have a good look at Main Fuse B 30amp wiring and fuse connections for overheated burnt wiring.

Also check for this power on the Red/white wire going through the dreaded Blue Connector (located on the left side of the bike near the upper area of the radiator), then up to the ESR.

[WDIV]

32 minutes ago, Grum said:

Can you explain your actions. You appear to be going to the Kill Switch then back to Ignition Switch!

The ticking sound appeared to be there at one point with Ignition to off.!

Confusing.

Can you do another video leaving the Kill Switch to RUN. Only operate the Ignition Switch.

 

Suspicious of poor power connections for EFI via the Engine Stop Relay.

Have a good look at Main Fuse B 30amp wiring and fuse connections for overheated burnt wiring.

Also check for this power on the Red/white wire going through the dreaded Blue Connector (located on the left side of the bike near the upper area of the radiator), then up to the ESR.

 

So yesterday my brother came over so we could work on his car and after opening to garage to grab tools, he asked me "can you hear that". Sure enough, with the key in the off position and the kill switch set to off (i learned that was the way to turn the bike off a million years ago, so I always use the kill switch), the bike was making this noise. Yesterday, I turned the key to on, turn the kill switch to on, the pump primed, and the sound went away. Fast forward to today, I decide to take a look. Turn the bike on as per the ushe, turn it off and boom, it starts making the noise again. So while the key was on but the kill switch was off, it was ticking. Turned the key off and it STAYS ticking. Turn the key to on, flip the the kill switch to on, pump primes, ticking stops. I don't understand how anything is getting power in the off position.

[Grum]

10 hours ago, WDIV said:

 

So yesterday my brother came over so we could work on his car and after opening to garage to grab tools, he asked me "can you hear that". Sure enough, with the key in the off position and the kill switch set to off (i learned that was the way to turn the bike off a million years ago, so I always use the kill switch), the bike was making this noise. Yesterday, I turned the key to on, turn the kill switch to on, the pump primed, and the sound went away. Fast forward to today, I decide to take a look. Turn the bike on as per the ushe, turn it off and boom, it starts making the noise again. So while the key was on but the kill switch was off, it was ticking. Turned the key off and it STAYS ticking. Turn the key to on, flip the the kill switch to on, pump primes, ticking stops. I don't understand how anything is getting power in the off position.

 

Unless you're bike has ABS? With Ignition to Off the only thing hanging off the battery is the R/R and clock power at the Instrument Panel! Perhaps, other than non standard wiring or accessories, your Ignition Switch may have developed some strange internal short.!!

 

"So while the key was on but the kill switch was off, it was ticking" - In this state Kill Switch OFF, all your EFI stuff including ECM, Fuel Pump, Engine Stop Relay, Fuel Cut Relay and sensors are unpowered. This means only Main Fuse A 30amp power is supplying the ticker! Assuming your battery voltage might be getting low, with Ignition to On you might get headlight relay chatter, but with Ignition to OFF this is impossible!

 

DO you have any non standard accessories or wiring added to the bike? If so, is this wired into the Main Fuse A 30amp (In the Starter Relay)circuit, or directly wired to the battery? I'm almost convinced there's a non standard relay somewhere, alarm system maybe?.

 

Curious - While watching and listening closely, why am I hearing what sounds like the cooling fan comming on with Ignition to ON? Can't see the temperature guage, was the engine excessively hot when you did the recording?

 

Just for Info - Some advice regarding the Kill Switch with a VFR. If you stop the engine this way and perhaps get distracted by someone or something and forget to switch Off the Ignition, your headlights will still be glowing, potentially flattening your battery, I've seen this happen.!!

Over working the Kill Switch, which is really for emergency use, just introduces another switch that may wear out causing issues over time, and as we know, a Kill Switch fault will instantly Kill the engine and possibly when you least expect it. Just a thought and as always YMMV.

[WDIV]

9 hours ago, Grum said:

 

Unless you're bike has ABS? With Ignition to Off the only thing hanging off the battery is the R/R and clock power at the Instrument Panel! Perhaps, other than non standard wiring or accessories, your Ignition Switch may have developed some strange internal short.!!

 

"So while the key was on but the kill switch was off, it was ticking" - In this state Kill Switch OFF, all your EFI stuff including ECM, Fuel Pump, Engine Stop Relay, Fuel Cut Relay and sensors are unpowered. This means only Main Fuse A 30amp power is supplying the ticker! Assuming your battery voltage might be getting low, with Ignition to On you might get headlight relay chatter, but with Ignition to OFF this is impossible!

 

DO you have any non standard accessories or wiring added to the bike? If so, is this wired into the Main Fuse A 30amp (In the Starter Relay)circuit, or directly wired to the battery? I'm almost convinced there's a non standard relay somewhere, alarm system maybe?.

 

Curious - While watching and listening closely, why am I hearing what sounds like the cooling fan comming on with Ignition to ON? Can't see the temperature guage, was the engine excessively hot when you did the recording?

 

Just for Info - Some advice regarding the Kill Switch with a VFR. If you stop the engine this way and perhaps get distracted by someone or something and forget to switch Off the Ignition, your headlights will still be glowing, potentially flattening your battery, I've seen this happen.!!

Over working the Kill Switch, which is really for emergency use, just introduces another switch that may wear out causing issues over time, and as we know, a Kill Switch fault will instantly Kill the engine and possibly when you least expect it. Just a thought and as always YMMV.

I thought the ticking while the key and kill siwtch were off would be impossible too. But here we are lol. 

The only after market things related to any wiring are the relay/wiring for the volt meter and the SH847 RR from roadster. 

The cooling fan was that whole ordeal that's already been sorted. If the fan was on, you'd know it. Now I wonder what you're hearing. Bike was cold at time of recording. 

About the kill switch, I've only seen VFR people here and in teh FB groups say this about the kill switch. With it being engrained in my process after 70k miles of riding, I'm not sure I'd be able to switch that up at this point lol. Are suzuki switches just made better? My naked SV wen through all kinds of weather and I smashed that switch on and off for as long as I had that bike without issue. :)

[Grum]

Take the seat off, raise the tank etc. It should be easy to locate where the loud ticking is physically coming from.

[WDIV]

18 minutes ago, Grum said:

Take the seat off, raise the tank etc. It should be easy to locate where the loud ticking is physically coming from.

I'll try that after work. I just need to get it to start doing it again. 

[Cogswell]

Ok, so I'm late to this - brand me a failure . . . !    Just a few random thoughts from my experiences with a 6th gen . . .

 

On the ticking sound, that does sort of sound like the 'ticking time bomb' - LOL!  I have never heard that from any bike.  Very odd.  Is there some accessory the p.o. would have added?  

 

Re surging, that's a well documented 6th gen issue - thank your elected representatives for urging the EPA to tighten their regs to save us from ourselves (leaning these things out to ridiculous levels).    Generally, a PC or Rapid Bike will smooth those out.  Also, sending the injectors off for a bench cleaning where flow and spray pattern are verified can also be helpful (easy on a 6th gen). 

 

Re the fan, either a single pole double throw (SPDT) or a double pole double throw (DPDT) switch can be very useful.  The wire to the thermo sensor on the left rad is hot with the ignition on.  All the thermo sensor does is ground the wire.  Remove that wire and connect it to the center connector of the new switch.  Then connect a second pole of the switch to ground and the 3rd pole of the switch to the thermo sensor.  Now you can force the fan on, off or route current from the power wire to ground allowing normal automatic operation.  It might seem odd to switch the fan to "off".  The trouble is that when the fan is running it's sending air through the left rad in the opposite direction of the normal flow from moving forward, stalling flow over that rad.  Once the engine gets over 220 and you get to speed,  the fan continues running but works against the ram air flow, not knowing that you're moving.  So turning the fan off can get ram air flow going again and cool things off faster once temps climb above 220 deg.  If you get a DPDT switch, there will be two sets of connectors, you'll just use the connectors on one side, the others remain unused. 

 

As for 6th gens with issues, I didn't think there was such a thing as ones without!  It's just all about dealing with them, which you seem to be well on your way to addressing.  Eventually you'll probably have cam chain tensioner issues, but that's not a big deal - there are some threads here about that, too. 

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WDIV]

On 8/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Cogswell said:

Ok, so I'm late to this - brand me a failure . . . !    Just a few random thoughts from my experiences with a 6th gen . . .

 

On the ticking sound, that does sort of sound like the 'ticking time bomb' - LOL!  I have never heard that from any bike.  Very odd.  Is there some accessory the p.o. would have added?  

 

Re surging, that's a well documented 6th gen issue - thank your elected representatives for urging the EPA to tighten their regs to save us from ourselves (leaning these things out to ridiculous levels).    Generally, a PC or Rapid Bike will smooth those out.  Also, sending the injectors off for a bench cleaning where flow and spray pattern are verified can also be helpful (easy on a 6th gen). 

 

Re the fan, either a single pole double throw (SPDT) or a double pole double throw (DPDT) switch can be very useful.  The wire to the thermo sensor on the left rad is hot with the ignition on.  All the thermo sensor does is ground the wire.  Remove that wire and connect it to the center connector of the new switch.  Then connect a second pole of the switch to ground and the 3rd pole of the switch to the thermo sensor.  Now you can force the fan on, off or route current from the power wire to ground allowing normal automatic operation.  It might seem odd to switch the fan to "off".  The trouble is that when the fan is running it's sending air through the left rad in the opposite direction of the normal flow from moving forward, stalling flow over that rad.  Once the engine gets over 220 and you get to speed,  the fan continues running but works against the ram air flow, not knowing that you're moving.  So turning the fan off can get ram air flow going again and cool things off faster once temps climb above 220 deg.  If you get a DPDT switch, there will be two sets of connectors, you'll just use the connectors on one side, the others remain unused. 

 

As for 6th gens with issues, I didn't think there was such a thing as ones without!  It's just all about dealing with them, which you seem to be well on your way to addressing.  Eventually you'll probably have cam chain tensioner issues, but that's not a big deal - there are some threads here about that, too. 

 

Cheers.

 

The ticking is a relay on the fritz, I'm sure. Whether it's caused by an 28 year old relay going bad or a bad grounds, I have yet to figure out. @Grum has been incredibly helpful. I took all the body work off but haven't been able to get the relay to act up again. Oh intermittent issues, how I hate you lol. 

For the surging, the PC6/O2 delete seemed to help a ton. Everything smoothed out, especially in the low end which was surprising. I bought a set of used injectors off of ebay specifically to send out for cleaning so I could replace them. It's on my list lol. 

The fan turned out to be a bad motor which was very exciting as I was getting frustrated trying everything everyone had recommended. No one wants to assume it's the $300 motor that's gone bad after 18 years but here's to it lasting another 18 years. I noticed mine consistently kicks on a 190* so I think the thermo sensor that I have isn't stock. PO wasn't helpful at all. I do wonder about air flow beneath the bike though and have thought about putting a naca duct somewhere and running a bit of ducting to help move cooler air into the under tank area... 

I wanted a VFR for a long time and I'm getting what I deserve lol. On the plus side, it's already been a ton of fun and I'm stoked to get her to 100%. The CCTs are inevitable and I'm hoping I'm on teh right side of mileage (22k) to avoide them for a little while lol. 

[Sweeper]

Forgive me if I missed it being mentioned. The 6th gens were notorious for crappy starter valve sync from the factory in addition to being lean. PC or other controller will solve a lot of the issue but to get it really smooth, get the throttles synced. You are dealing with a lot of issues from an old bike. It will be worth it in the end. They are very reliable when sorted and nothing beats the sound of a happy V4.

[carlgustav]

On 8/16/2023 at 6:36 AM, WDIV said:

 

I do wonder about air flow beneath the bike though and have thought about putting a naca duct somewhere and running a bit of ducting to help move cooler air into the under tank area... 
 

 

I've wondered on/off for years about pulling the stock turn signals and adding short ducts in their place to direct air towards the radiators (or just into the area) when moving. If any additional airflow is actually effective, then what do you do about turn signals? I've not seen that anyone has tried this so it may not be practical.

[WDIV]

On 8/16/2023 at 9:25 AM, Sweeper said:

Forgive me if I missed it being mentioned. The 6th gens were notorious for crappy starter valve sync from the factory in addition to being lean. PC or other controller will solve a lot of the issue but to get it really smooth, get the throttles synced. You are dealing with a lot of issues from an old bike. It will be worth it in the end. They are very reliable when sorted and nothing beats the sound of a happy V4.

Already got the PC6 installed and going 🙂

 

 

20 hours ago, carlgustav said:

 

I've wondered on/off for years about pulling the stock turn signals and adding short ducts in their place to direct air towards the radiators (or just into the area) when moving. If any additional airflow is actually effective, then what do you do about turn signals? I've not seen that anyone has tried this so it may not be practical.

Hmmmmm. You could always move turn signals to the mirrors, bar ends, or even just place some LED strips on each side. 

[WDIV]

On 8/10/2023 at 5:50 AM, Grum said:

Take the seat off, raise the tank etc. It should be easy to locate where the loud ticking is physically coming from.

 

The relay was ticking like mad and I'm sad it took me this long to get around to sorting it.

 

 

This... doesn't look great. 🙂

 

New relay looks a little better sealed.

 

 

 

Cleaned up the original harness as thoroughly as I could with a brush. Definitely thought about de-pinning it be a bit more thorough but it looked good enough.

 

 

 

 

Hopefully this sorts the weirdness out but we'll see over time. It's raining today and tomorrow so monday, we test ride. 🙂

[bmart]

They make tools to clean connectors, male blades and female side too! Do a quick search. 

[Grum]

9 hours ago, WDIV said:

 

The relay was ticking like   I'm sad it took me this long to get around to sorting it.

 

 

This... doesn't look great. 🙂

 

New relay looks a little better sealed.

 

 

 

Cleaned up the original harness as thoroughly as I could with a brush. Definitely thought about de-pinning it be a bit more thorough but it looked good enough.

 

 

 

 

Hopefully this sorts the weirdness out but we'll see over time. It's raining today and tomorrow so monday, we test ride. 🙂

Good find. BUT...... Which relay is it, important info? Is it the Engine Stop Relay? Might be worth checking ALL relay sockets including the Starter Relay for similar corrosion!

 

There's no way I'd be placing my nice new relay into those sockets! They look horrible, just wouldn't trust them, based on all the corrosion and oxidization evident, you could never rely on good contact connection. It's not too hard to replace the spade sockets with high quality ones like in the attached picture (Ignore the pic of the Starter Red Plug).

 

I'm still baffled by the fact you had the ticking noise with Ignition to OFF! This doesn't make sense! There is no power to any Relay Coil when the Ignition is OFF. I "smell a Rat", there must be some strange non OEM wiring changes, additions/modifications or intermittent short going on here!

 

Just curious! What is this mass of mostly yellow looking wires, just doesn't look right? See attached in Green circle. 

 

P.s. Listen very closely to your video again, is it just me? Why do I hear what sounds like some sort fan running just prior to you turning OFF the Ignition near the end of the recording?

 

[WDIV]

20 hours ago, Grum said:

Good find. BUT...... Which relay is it, important info? Is it the Engine Stop Relay? Might be worth checking ALL relay sockets including the Starter Relay for similar corrosion!

 

There's no way I'd be placing my nice new relay into those sockets! They look horrible, just wouldn't trust them, based on all the corrosion and oxidization evident, you could never rely on good contact connection. It's not too hard to replace the spade sockets with high quality ones like in the attached picture (Ignore the pic of the Starter Red Plug).

 

I'm still baffled by the fact you had the ticking noise with Ignition to OFF! This doesn't make sense! There is no power to any Relay Coil when the Ignition is OFF. I "smell a Rat", there must be some strange non OEM wiring changes, additions/modifications or intermittent short going on here!

 

Just curious! What is this mass of mostly yellow looking wires, just doesn't look right? See attached in Green circle. 

 

P.s. Listen very closely to your video again, is it just me? Why do I hear what sounds like some sort fan running just prior to you turning OFF the Ignition near the end of the recording?

 

 

The yellow wire is my 12ga extension cable on the floor far behind my bike lol.

 

At the end of the video I hear the fuel relay go but no "fan".

22 hours ago, bmart said:

They make tools to clean connectors, male blades and female side too! Do a quick search. 

I'll grab one now. Thanks! Had no idea these terminal cleaners existed!