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Re-baseline Dyno --- 114.5hp --- 59lbft ---


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Back at it again.

This bike has come a long way.

...and we are just getting started...

Stay 'tuned' for this winter... 


 image.thumb.png.3aa15365e8cefffa37a6be06bf203735.png

Edit 1: Red line is from a dynotune from this past February on the exact same dyno in Tampa, Florida. That day was 20F cooler than this re-baseline.

 

rebaseline_fri2021.jpg

Edited by Ughandi
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114hp is what a good 5 gen puts out on a generous dyno with the following mods:

 

-WiLD headers from VFRD

-good slipon midpipe/muffler

-K&N air filter

-Power Commander

-a good dyno tech that knows how to tune

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On 8/28/2021 at 10:45 AM, 68mustang said:

How did you get 114 hp? Mod list please? 

I can't reveal ALL my secrets... ;D 

The biggest difference between the February dyno and just a few weeks ago is my lightweight flywheel. Shaved a bit over a pound off of it. 

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On 8/28/2021 at 11:13 AM, sfdownhill said:

-a good dyno tech that knows how to tune

Eric Lee is the best in the business.

Puts real care into his bikes. I'm lucky to even be on his radar, considering the slowest bike in his shop makes 300whp

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On 8/28/2021 at 8:13 AM, sfdownhill said:

114hp is what a good 5 gen puts out on a generous dyno with the following mods:

 

-WiLD headers from VFRD

-good slipon midpipe/muffler

-K&N air filter

-Power Commander

-a good dyno tech that knows how to tune

 

A couple of ponies can also be freed with no loss in mileage expectations by running a 30 grade synthetic oil ...

 

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55 minutes ago, BusyLittleShop said:

A couple of ponies can also be freed with no loss in mileage expectations by running a 30 grade synthetic oil ...

True... but I draw my line at my search for more HP at items that may impact reliability, or demand frequent maintenance... such as lightweight oils, non-o-ring chains, and removing anti-lash gears.

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No maybes about it...

Blackstone's 35 years worth of racing and street motorcycle oil
analysis shows no significant differences in WEAR between the
grades... in other words either our 50 grade or a 30 grade will meet
and exceed our mileage expectations... what is significant between 50
& 30 grades is less HP and higher Temps from unwanted oil drag...

 

The Importance of Viscosity?
Quote Blackstone Labs

The viscosity, or thickness of the oil, is not nearly as important
as many people think. Oil retains its nature no matter what thickness
it is.Think about this: automakers are continually recommending
lighter multi-grade oil in new engines. The reason is increased
efficiency. It takes power to pump oil through an engine, and the
lighter the oil, the less power required to pump it. The oil’s ability
to act like a solid and protect parts is not related to its thickness.
If that doesn’t sound quite right, consider this: The gears in a
heavy duty Allison automatic transmission are doing the same work as
the same machine equipped with an Eaton manual transmission. Due to
the hydraulics of the automatic, it runs on a 10W automatic
transmission oil.But the manual transmission uses a very thick
(sometimes up to 90W)gear lube oil. The gears of both types of
transmissions will have a similar life span. We don’t find any
significant differences in wear, regardless of oil thickness.

 

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Just now, BusyLittleShop said:

Blackstone's 35 years worth of racing and street motorcycle oil
analysis shows no significant differences in WEAR between the
grades... in other words either our 50 grade or a 30 grade will meet
and exceed our mileage expectations... what is significant between 50
& 30 grades is less HP and higher Temps...

 

The Importance of Viscosity?
Quote Blackstone Labs

The viscosity, or thickness of the oil, is not nearly as important
as many people think. Oil retains its nature no matter what thickness
it is.Think about this: automakers are continually recommending
lighter multi-grade oil in new engines. The reason is increased
efficiency. It takes power to pump oil through an engine, and the
lighter the oil, the less power required to pump it. The oil’s ability
to act like a solid and protect parts is not related to its thickness.
If that doesn’t sound quite right, consider this: The gears in a
heavy duty Allison automatic transmission are doing the same work as
the same machine equipped with an Eaton manual transmission. Due to
the hydraulics of the automatic, it runs on a 10W automatic
transmission oil.But the manual transmission uses a very thick
(sometimes up to 90W)gear lube oil. The gears of both types of
transmissions will have a similar life span. We don’t find any
significant differences in wear, regardless of oil thickness.

 

Here we go again...  🤦‍♂️

 

Nothing you are reading or posting means what you think it means. Srsly.

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7 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

No maybes about it...

Blackstone's 35 years worth of racing and street motorcycle oil
analysis shows no significant differences in WEAR between the
grades... in other words either our 50 grade or a 30 grade will meet
and exceed our mileage expectations... what is significant between 50
& 30 grades is less HP and higher Temps from unwanted oil drag...

 

The Importance of Viscosity?
Quote Blackstone Labs

The viscosity, or thickness of the oil, is not nearly as important
as many people think. Oil retains its nature no matter what thickness
it is.Think about this: automakers are continually recommending
lighter multi-grade oil in new engines. The reason is increased
efficiency. It takes power to pump oil through an engine, and the
lighter the oil, the less power required to pump it. The oil’s ability
to act like a solid and protect parts is not related to its thickness.
If that doesn’t sound quite right, consider this: The gears in a
heavy duty Allison automatic transmission are doing the same work as
the same machine equipped with an Eaton manual transmission. Due to
the hydraulics of the automatic, it runs on a 10W automatic
transmission oil.But the manual transmission uses a very thick
(sometimes up to 90W)gear lube oil. The gears of both types of
transmissions will have a similar life span. We don’t find any
significant differences in wear, regardless of oil thickness.

 

90 weight gear oil viscosity is not measured the same as 10w motor oil which isn't the same as ATF. a 90w gear oil is about as viscous as a 40-50w motor oil. Also gear oil is used because there are gears in the transmission that "shear" the oil. However some manual transmissions also call for "atf" fluid. later model T5's being an example. I would be willing to listen to a lesser weight motor oil IF there were back to back analysis of 30w vs 40w in a VFR. Also motor oil accumulates contaminates over time. a 15-20 year old tech motorcycle is going to accumulate faster than say a newer car that requires 5w20 or the like. Also, where do you find motorcycle oil that's a 5/10w30? Most are 10w40. Rotella could be used, but that's another discussion. 

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On 8/28/2021 at 10:13 AM, sfdownhill said:

114hp is what a good 5 gen puts out on a generous dyno with the following mods:

 

-WiLD headers from VFRD

-good slipon midpipe/muffler

-K&N air filter

-Power Commander

-a good dyno tech that knows how to tune

I just have a staintune slipon and pc3 with an online tune. I'm not crazy on air filters that filter less, but the headers sound nice. Good numbers! always thought 5th gens put around 100 hp more or less. 

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Note that oil must be matched to engine-design, specifically bearing clearances. Recent shift to lower-weight oils matches more precise manufacturing tolerances and tighter clearances.

 

Older vehicles with larger bearing clearances should stay with oils recommended by manufacturer.

 

Recent case with BMW M-cars blowing engines due to viscosity-breakdown from high-performance use on tracks. BMW's solution was to go with 20w60 oil on all their M-cars . Problem solved, no more failures.

 

Don't risk your engine trying to get that last 2-3hp out of it by downgrading oil. Not worth it.

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8 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

 

Don't risk your engine trying to get that last 2-3hp out of it by downgrading oil. Not worth it.

 

Mercy Danno!!!

You can get that last 2-3hp by Honda's recommended oil or equivalent...  you're not risking your engine by running a freer flowing 30 grade... Honda's engineers have tested it to make sure it will meet and exceed your mileage expectations...

 

 

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2 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

 

Mercy Danno!!!

You can get that last 2-3hp by Honda's recommended oil or equivalent...  you're not risking your engine by running a freer flowing 30 grade... Honda's engineers have tested it to make sure it will meet and exceed your mileage expectations...

Straight out of 1998-2001 manual it says, "RECOMMENDED ENGINE OIL" and "Viscosity: 10W-40""

 

uc?export=download&id=102aLe8PBhYZzqDcwQ

 

The 10w30 oil "may" be used if conditions are within range. That's up to 88F only. Most of track season at Thunderhill is 100F+, not even close!

 

uc?export=download&id=1Y0TVUSdMD7ndSnelC

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15 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

 

Mercy Danno!!!

You can get that last 2-3hp by Honda's recommended oil or equivalent...  you're not risking your engine by running a freer flowing 30 grade... Honda's engineers have tested it to make sure it will meet and exceed your mileage expectations...

 

 

You have it backwards again.  The bearings were designed for a range of viscosity vs RPM for temperature, with consideration for the shared sump with the transmission that cycles the lubricant hard that drove viscosity selection.

 

Visosity is specifically the only characteristic that matters; higher viscosity means the bearing surfaces stay further apart (less bearing eccentricity) and touch less.  The "flow" you believe in is only created by RPM and...viscosity, period.

 

Refer back to classwork.  I recommend Shigley's Mechanical Engineering Design over "Stuff I found on the Internet that kinda sounds like how I think the physical universe works."

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18 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

 

 

 

The 10w30 oil "may" be used if conditions are within range.

 

True... but now the freer flowing and cooler running 30 grade oil is recommended to be used in all conditions... 

 

You can bet that Honda's engineers have tested it to make sure it will meet and exceed your mileage expectations...

 

Feel free to release those ponies...

 

30Grade2017VFR800.jpg

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4 hours ago, ShipFixer said:

 

 

higher viscosity means the bearing surfaces stay further apart (less bearing eccentricity) and touch less. 

 

 

Mercy Patrick... flow equals more separation not pressure...

 

quote Dr. Haas

"It is time to introduce the concept of lubrication. Most believe that
pressure = lubrication. This is false. Flow = lubrication. If pressure
was the thing that somehow lubricated your engine then we would all be
using 90 weight oil. Lubrication is used to separate moving parts, to
keep them from touching. There is a one to one relationship between
flow and separation. If you double the flow you will double the
separation pressure in a bearing. The pressure at the bearing entrance
is irrelevant."

 

"In fact the relationship between pressure and flow is in opposition.
If you change your oil to a thicker formula the pressure will go up.
It goes up because the resistance to flow is greater and in fact the
flow must go down in order for the pressure to go up. They are
inversely related. Conversely if you choose a thinner oil then the
pressure will go down. This can only occur if the flow has increased."

 

Quote Rat540

"Plain bearings, such as rod and main bearings are lubricated
by oil flow, not by oil pressure. Oil pressure is NOT what keeps these
parts separated. Oil pressure serves only to supply the oil to this
interface. The parts are kept apart by the in compressible hydrodynamic
liquid oil wedge that is formed as the liquid oil is pulled in between
the spinning parts. As long as sufficient oil is supplied, no wear can
occur. In addition to this, the flow of oil through the bearings is
what cools them."

 
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19 hours ago, DannoXYZ said:

Straight out of 1998-2001 manual it says, "RECOMMENDED ENGINE OIL" and "Viscosity: 10W-40""

 

uc?export=download&id=102aLe8PBhYZzqDcwQ

 

The 10w30 oil "may" be used if conditions are within range. That's up to 88F only. Most of track season at Thunderhill is 100F+, not even close!

 

uc?export=download&id=1Y0TVUSdMD7ndSnelC

This looks like a race bike, so I am assuming you are riding in full leathers. 

 

At 119 I'm not worried about what oil is in your mc, I'm worried about your mental and physical health. Lol, but kind of serious though, why?

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Why? It's so much fun wringing out bike on track! I did 46 days @ track that season with 5 race-weekends!

 

Heh, heh, previously I did 10-years of velodrome and road-racing and made it to Olympic trials in '92 for kilo. I'm good about physical health and staying fit! Rule I follow is 750-1000ml water/hr, 200 calories and 1/4 electrolyte tablet per hour. Went through 2-gals of Gatorade that day! 🙂

 

It was actually only 110F on that day, but temp-sensor out by front fork was also picking up track temps of +130F! 

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2 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

Mercy Patrick... flow equals more separation not pressure...

 

quote Dr. Haas

"It is time to introduce the concept of lubrication. Most believe that
pressure = lubrication. This is false. Flow = lubrication. If pressure
was the thing that somehow lubricated your engine then we would all be
using 90 weight oil. Lubrication is used to separate moving parts, to
keep them from touching. There is a one to one relationship between
flow and separation. If you double the flow you will double the
separation pressure in a bearing. The pressure at the bearing entrance
is irrelevant."

 

"In fact the relationship between pressure and flow is in opposition.
If you change your oil to a thicker formula the pressure will go up.
It goes up because the resistance to flow is greater and in fact the
flow must go down in order for the pressure to go up. They are
inversely related. Conversely if you choose a thinner oil then the
pressure will go down. This can only occur if the flow has increased."

 

Quote Rat540

"Plain bearings, such as rod and main bearings are lubricated
by oil flow, not by oil pressure. Oil pressure is NOT what keeps these
parts separated. Oil pressure serves only to supply the oil to this
interface. The parts are kept apart by the in compressible hydrodynamic
liquid oil wedge that is formed as the liquid oil is pulled in between
the spinning parts. As long as sufficient oil is supplied, no wear can
occur. In addition to this, the flow of oil through the bearings is
what cools them."

 

Here we go again - a bunch of words that you do not understand, in some cases from sources that don't understand how the systems work either.  The pressure from the pump is what keeps adequate fluid levels inside the bearing.  The bearing's rotation is what creates the flow, where V=0 at the surface, and the force pushing the surfaces apart is linearly correlated to viscosity.  Stop and use your brain for a second...what about closed sump bearings in large propulsion shafts, ski lifts, etc.  Where is that "flow" coming from?  The Force?  Elves?  Why is lubrication working without a pump?  

 

For real dude...you don't know what you are reading well enough to decide right from wrong.   I recommend a basic book in fluid mechanics before Googling around trying to find a compelling argument, and maybe do some of the basic exercises in viscosity and fluid flow.  Pay attention to boundary conditions and assumptions.

 

ShipFixer, M.S. MechE

 

Please let us know what your education and credentials are below.  I'll wait.

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Fearless prediction...you are cutting and pasting from another article that has words like "flow" and "pressure" in it... 🤣

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3 hours ago, BusyLittleShop said:

 

True... but now the freer flowing and cooler running 30 grade oil is recommended to be used in all conditions... 

 

You can bet that Honda's engineers have tested it to make sure it will meet and exceed your mileage expectations...

 

Feel free to release those ponies...

 

30Grade2017VFR800.jpg

A 2017 VFR800 engine is nowhere even close to same engine as 1998. You can't just use updated specs on older engines. Look at what happened to all those old cars with flat-tappets when API SL came out. Using those modern oils destroyed older engines quite quickly.

 

BTW, look up boundary-layer V=0 effects. Need to understand how hydrodynamic wedge is created and what it does for lubrication... requires zero flow...

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This made me think of something from way back when, when Ford re-specced pickup engines that had been in production for 10+ years with no changes to use lower viscosity oil.  Many, many mechanical engineers noticed the obvious, that Ford had made a decision about longevity vs. Corporate Average Fuel Economy without informing the customer.  They brought their fleet numbers up a tiny notch and the owners, well...  A couple friends of mine were engine designers at Ford around then and they were like WTF but also not something they could have fought inside the company.

 

Anyway...I suspect BusyLittleShop woulld say "Why the sad face Ford owner, don't think of it as getting pwned by the manufacturer, they just gave you 0.5% more HP!" :lol:

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Interesting that exact same Ford and US-made Toyotas sold in foreign markets without CAFE requirements uses thicker oil... 

 

GM increased Corvette and Camaro oil to 0w-40 across board for all markets...

 

What do they know behind scenes... hmm....

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