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Ehonda

98 troubles, codes etc

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Hi all, I've been on and off here for a few years with different VFR's from 92 to 02, my current one a 98 model. Its been fine, nothing wrong with it, until today, for no reason really. Started in the morning no worries, then left it an hour, came back to go for a ride.. wont start. Absolutely nothing had changed or been touched.

 

-cranks fine, plenty of battery juice

-check spark, good

-Hear pump priming, good

-Check fuel hose from tank to rail, pressurised 

 

So obviously the injectors arent getting signal. Exhaust doesnt smell of fuel either. Did the jump wire for codes, came up with 2, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15 which were MAP, baro, injectors 1 2 3 4. I visually checked the sensors and plugs, seemed fine (dont have a multimeter). I cleared the codes and it still wouldnt start. Only code that came back was #10 baro...thought the other codes might have been old, hence not reappearing 🤔

 

So Im a bit stumped atm and i have a Haynes manual i had a quick flick through but doesnt seem helpful with this particular problem.. literally never had a problem with it previously, 48xxxkm owned for 6 months. 

 

Any thoughts?

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I suppose it's not the kill switch if you hear the fuel pump priming, side stand switch maybe?

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When you say that you hear the fuel pump priming you're saying that you can hear the climbing pitch of the whine that it makes as it builds pressure

 

If all you're hearing is the fuel pump running for a few seconds at the same flat pitch (not in a climbing pitch that indicates it is building up pressure in the fuel system), then the fuel pressure regulator might have given up the ghost.

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Check the Earth Block - Orange junction box left front side of bike. This unit has multiple green wires that are commoned together that cause many EFI issues. 

The trick is to cut the wires from the block and neatly solder them all together.

Would also check the ECM Grounds, A9, A20 (Green/Pink wires) and B1 (Green wire) to make sure they are solidly connected back to the battery negative terminal. Note ; A connector on ECM is Black, B connector is Gray. You'll need a good multimeter for this continuity check.

Another thing to be sure of is that with Ignition ON that you have a good 12v at ECM B8 (Black/White wire) a low voltage here, especially while cranking may not allow the injectors to operate.

 

Post Edit - Thanks Terry, sorry, wrong location for the 5th Gen. Should be left side below seat.

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image.jpeg

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A bad earth was my thought too, Grum has shown the position on a 6G (02-). The 98-01 5G has a similar earth block as part of the main wire harness located on the left side of the bike below the seat. It is probably still wrapped up in tape but you will be able to feel the rectangular shape before you unwrap it. 

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I've had similar codes and issues. When these wires become loose in the gang block (Orange in my 2000) a reading from the sensor circuit associated with any loose green ground wire can result in a positive floating voltage giving this generating an errant signal and the ECU flags that as a reading and resulting error code. 

 

Matt 

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Thanks guys, i haveng been able to put the suggestions to tbe test yet as the bike is 2hrs away from me atm but i have a feeling they will be the cure, cheers

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So... i did the earth block cut and solder, and the other earth wires directly to the battery neg. I dont have a multimeter at the moment to test the other wires. Checked and cleared codes again, no codes left or returning now. Can smell fuel in the exhaust now and sometimes splutters, very poorly though 🤔

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2 hours ago, Ehonda said:

So... i did the earth block cut and solder, and the other earth wires directly to the battery neg. I dont have a multimeter at the moment to test the other wires. Checked and cleared codes again, no codes left or returning now. Can smell fuel in the exhaust now and sometimes splutters, very poorly though 🤔

Does your engine run or do you still have issues? Wonder if you have a flooded situation? You may need to go through the flooded start procedure. Crank it over with the throttle fully open for a while this will help purge the cylinders, then go back to starting with no added throttle. Should eventually splutter and kick into life and run normally.

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Doesnt run. Cranks over fine. Even got a donor bike and its not helping. Its like its out of timing, there is zero splutter, struggle, nothing. Yet there is spark and fuel, no codes showing. Took out spark plugs, near new, cleaned them up, left them out for a bit on a sunny day to evap the cylinders. Nothing. What the actual fack. 3wks of this shit now.

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Where was the bike parked during the "1 hour" that you left it (as you described in your original post)? 

 

Was it sitting out in public?  Did somebody stuff something deep into the exhaust pipe?  Or did a child (or children) fill the exhaust can up with dirt or rocks?  Just guessing at what might have happened in just 1 hour.

 

The exhaust canister is easy to remove and inspect, just a few minutes of work.

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In my contained garage on a farm on a nice sunny windless day. Literally. No one interfered with it..There is no reason or explanation why it is doing what its doing. Think i wouldve noticed if there were rocks in the exhaust over the last 3 weeks.

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Is there any chance your fuel is bad? Could you have had some severe condensation in the tank? Might just be worth dumping whatever is in the tank and fill her up with fresh non ethanol 91octane. Do you recall what fuel type was in it and for how long?

If your fuel pump primes and you are confident of spark and injectors both ok, then just perhaps it's bad fuel!

Can't see how your timing would suddenly just go out. 

Still might be worth checking out the ECM grounds I mentioned earlier, you'll need a multimeter though.

 

ALSO.....Your issues sound so similar to this guy who had terrible starting issues on his VFR1200. He started his bike from cold only for a very short period then stopped the engine, next day he could not start his bike. Eventually it was the flooded start procedure that got him going again a few days later!

Check out this link, especially near the bottom of page 2.

Keep us posted with how you go. Good luck.

 

https://www.vfrdiscussion.com/index.php?/forums/topic/85988-2010-vfr-1200-no-start/

 

5th gen Owners Manual. Flooded start procedure.

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7 hours ago, Ehonda said:

In my contained garage on a farm on a nice sunny windless day. Literally. No one interfered with it..There is no reason or explanation why it is doing what its doing. Think i wouldve noticed if there were rocks in the exhaust over the last 3 weeks.

Yeah, I expected that wouldn't be the case, just trying to turn over every possible stone, maybe jog your memory of the day.

 

At this point I'm with Grum on his theory that the fuel in the tank being bad somehow (or maybe his alternate theory about a flooded situation).  What can you tell us about the fuel, when did you last refuel the bike before the problem began? 

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Rapid mouse nest, have you checked the airbox !?  

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None of that, new high octane fuel, always chuck in between 95 and 98. Bike is well maintained etc. I had trial fitted a 954 tail and put the factory tail back on, along with stick coil conversion. Was working fine before and after doing both. I was wondering if i might have created an internal break in one of the wires that somehow shat it while it was sitting there in that 1 hour?

 

I have a donor bike and changed ECU's, no change. Unplugged, sprayed and rexonnected a bunch of the connections around the subframe. Got a multimeter last night but not sure what to even look for. The stator plug looked a little brown inside but not melted or damaged, bike has 48xxxkm, but as said, spark is there on all 4, doesnt even try. The donor has a new stator and RR so i will swap them today.  

 

I have intentionally unplugged some sensors like MAP and turned on yet no code come up still, is that odd? Should bring up relevant code sensing fault/failure shouldnt it? Exhaust smells of fuel but if no codes are appearing when they should be, then maybe fuel isnt getting past injectors after all? It just seems like its lost its timing somehow, does pulse generator/CAS fail on these like RR? 

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On 18 August 2019 at 11:13 PM, Ehonda said:

Started in the morning no worries, then left it an hour, came back to go for a ride.. wont start. Absolutely nothing had changed or been touched.

Mate. How long did you run the engine when you started it in the morning??

Just getting back to the flooded engine scenario. Did you read the Link I posted regards the flooded VFR1200?

 

If you only started the bike for a short period the combustion chambers do not get hot enough to to burn off the rich fuel, next cold start the ECM will again force a rich fuel mixture causing a flooded situation. This situation could well be made worse by the fact you have either 95 or 98 octane in the tank - The additives in Premium Fuel to increase its octane, actually decrease its volatility, so it just won't vapourise as readily as 91octane. (There is no benifit running Premium fuel in a VFR!).

 

Your statement "Can smell fuel in the exhaust now and sometimes splutters, very poorly though 🤔" is typical of the flooded situation mentioned.

 

Guess I'm stating the basics here, but if you have Compression, Rotation, Ignition, Fuel and Air (in the RIGHT amounts) you should get some response from an engine.

 

Another thought for excessive fuel could be a ruptured Fuel Pressure Regulator. This causes excess fuel to be sucked into cylinders 3 and 4 via the vacumm hoses, no Fi codes for this fault.

 

Thoughts of a faulty Cam or Crank Pulse Sensor would inhibit your spark and flag up an ECM Error code, you apparently don't have any error codes and you state you have Spark. Can't agree with your thoughts that in the space of one hour the Ignition Timing would suddenly go way out, never heard of that happening.

Good Luck - Keep us posted.

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Running fine for at least 15min just on the centre stand while having a chat to a family member. And had taken it out for 5min burn up the road prior to that.

I did the flood prodecure maybe 40 times yesterday, would be lucky to get one little pop each time. Left the plugs out for 24hrs, came back to it just then. No difference.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, Ehonda said:

Running fine for at least 15min just on the centre stand while having a chat to a family member. And had taken it out for 5min burn up the road prior to that.

I did the flood prodecure maybe 40 times yesterday, would be lucky to get one little pop each time. Left the plugs out for 24hrs, came back to it just then. No difference.

 

 

Fair enough. Reckon you should check the ECM Grounds and 12v Power as suggested above. Also have a good look at the wiring and state of the main Fuse at the Starter Relay. Heat stressed wire and overheated fuse legs have caused strange problems, bit of a known weakness.

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Just for the hell of it! Have you tried starting your bike with Side Stand UP and clutch pulled in? And is the Neutral light working correctly?

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