My Turn For Electrical Gremlins

[emoyer]

I had planned a nice 300 mile loop for today, on my 1999. Beautiful weather, wife is away, nobody needed me for anything. I should have known it was too good to be true.

Last night coming home from topping off the tank the bike starts lagging and surging, and then the FI light comes on and stays on. Sometimes the lagging happened when hitting a bump but not always.

Made it home, jumpered the test connector under the seat. Three codes: 1 and 2, which have to do with the MAP sensor, and 9, which concerns the IAT sensor.

Also, when I first headed out last night, I think the headlights were not on. (It was not dark yet so I was not sure.) I stopped to check it, inadvertently stopping the engine by putting down the side stand, and when I restarted it they were on.

So today I've been doing research on forums and working through the service manual troubleshooting procedure. The ground block looks ok. I believe the bike has an updated reg/rec (it is rectangular and has fins, with the number SH689DA.)

Unplugging and replugging the MAP sensor does not help, and the voltages on the MAP plug match what the service manual says. And the next step in the service manual involves the test harness, which according to my research is expensive.

Battery connections are tight, and battery voltage is 12.88. I always keep it on a battery tender.

So what would you try next?

Thanks.

[Switchblade]

Pull both the side covers off and start checking all connectors, and check the plugs in the front fairing. Remember the ECU uses 5Vdc so any loose or burnt connectors compound the problem.

[vfrcapn]

I'd run through this flow chart first to check the charging system, (along with checking for burnt connections) then look at individual components:

http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

[emoyer]

Thanks for the input. I have printed out the flowchart and hopefully will run through it, as well as checking connections, either tonite or tomorrow nite. And I bought some dielectric grease. I figured that while I was pulling things apart to inspect them I might as well put some in there.

Question: How much grease should I use? Just a little dab on each pin? And is it ok to use everywhere, or are there some kinds of connectors that I should not put it on?

On saturday nite, because it seemed like an easy step to eliminate something, my son suggested unplugging the PC3, clearing the codes, and taking it for a ride. The problem happened again before I went 2 miles. And what I described before as lagging and surging I think I would now describe as random, momentary (2 or 3 seconds) reductions in power, without me moving the throttle. Makes corners interesting.

When I got back I checked the codes again and this time it was just the 1.

And since I found one on ebay for $35 I ordered a replacement MAP sensor, just in case. But it won't arrive until Friday, so in the meantime I will do the other stuff that has been suggested.

Thanks.

[CandyRedRC46]

DO NOT PUT DIELECTRIC GREASE ON ANYTHING!

IT IS AN INSULATING AGENT. IT WILL RUIN YOUR CONNECTIONS!!!

Double check the main 30 amp fuse next to the battery. I lost mine a few months back. It was an intermeidiate connection and caused a lot of weird issues like leaning the bike out and stalling and power lose etc.

[emoyer]

DO NOT PUT DIELECTRIC GREASE ON ANYTHING!

IT IS AN INSULATING AGENT. IT WILL RUIN YOUR CONNECTIONS!!!

Double check the main 30 amp fuse next to the battery. I lost mine a few months back. It was an intermeidiate connection and caused a lot of weird issues like leaning the bike out and stalling and power lose etc.

Ok, thanks for setting me straight. I must have misread the pinned Tips & Tricks thread in the electrical section. The guy talked about using grease, and then I think later mentioned where to get dielectric grease, so I assumed thats what he was putting on the connections.

Thanks for the other tip as well.

[jeffyjeff]

DO NOT PUT DIELECTRIC GREASE ON ANYTHING!

IT IS AN INSULATING AGENT. IT WILL RUIN YOUR CONNECTIONS!!!

Double check the main 30 amp fuse next to the battery. I lost mine a few months back. It was an intermeidiate connection and caused a lot of weird issues like leaning the bike out and stalling and power lose etc.

I beg to differ. Dielectric grease does indeed insulate between electrical terminals nested in a common connector, but it is also a lubricant. It is the KY jelly of electrical male and female terminals, and permits better contact and a lower resistance electrical connection. I have used Permatex dielectric grease on my RR connector for years. Jeff J.

[jimmer]

Last night coming home from topping off the tank the bike starts lagging and surging, and then the FI light comes on and stays on. Sometimes the lagging happened when hitting a bump but not always.

Water in the gas? Have you had lots of rain lately?

[emoyer]

Water in the gas? Have you had lots of rain lately?

There has been a lot of rain here recently. I assume you are talking about it getting into the underground tanks at the gas station? Because the bike lives in a garage, and I don't ride much in the rain. But would that make the computer think the MAP sensor was bad?

Double check the main 30 amp fuse next to the battery. I lost mine a few months back. It was an intermeidiate connection and caused a lot of weird issues like leaning the bike out and stalling and power lose etc.

CandyRed --

I started working thru the Electrosport flowchart this afternoon. Voltage at 2500 RPM was 13.4 and they want at least 13.5. Close but I went to the next step. Voltage from red wire on RR (at first connector) to battery (+) was 0.8 and they want no more than 0.2. So I decided to try checking the drop along the path. But first I shut the bike down and poked around a little. The 30A main fuse and socket looked ok, but I sprayed a little WD40 and replaced the fuse. Started the bike and was gonna check the path in steps, but the whole drop was now 0.16. And voltage at 2500 RPM was in the high 13's and stable.

Could that little bit I did have been important? Is this something like what you were talking about?

I still want to check the rest of the connections. And maybe eventually either do a VFRness or somehow other augment the main charge and ground paths.

Thanks.

[Switchblade]

Yeah thats what your looking for, a bunch of voltages drops add up to too many.

[jimmer]

You will absolutely get error codes from water in the gas. This guy saved money by draining his tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjZR7JaPBco

[MaxSwell]

I found Ox-Gard at local hardware. Anti-oxidant and conductivity. Smeared on all male blades in all connectors.

[emoyer]

I have checked (and cleaned with contact cleaner) all the connections i could see with both side panels and the tailpiece removed, except for one or two I could not get apart. Battery voltage is over 14 at idle and in the high 13s up to 5000 RPM.

I have replaced the MAP sensor.

I have swapped out the fuel.

Every time I clear the codes and take it for a ride, within 2 miles the FI light comes on and the throttle gets notchy at low RPM. Also she doesn't sound normal when idling. And code 1 is set again.

However, it just occurred to me that I never cleaned the ECM connections, so I guess I could do that.

If it really was bad fuel, do you think riding it for awhile would make it get any better?

[jimmer]

I would think any issues caused by water in the fuel would have been dealt with pretty quickly after draining the tank and adding fresh gas.

Are you saying that your battery voltage is higher at idle than at 5000 rpm?

[emoyer]

I would think any issues caused by water in the fuel would have been dealt with pretty quickly after draining the tank and adding fresh gas.

Are you saying that your battery voltage is higher at idle than at 5000 rpm?

I just did the test again. Before I do it, I wait until the battery tender says the battery is fully charged, then I disconnect the battery tender. The battery was brand new earlier this year.

Voltage measurements across battery terminals:

ignition off: starts around 13.8, slowly declines

ignition on: declines faster, stabilizes (kind of) around 12.4

engine idling: voltage slowly increases, hovers between 14.1 and 14.2

2500 RPM: hovers around 13.6

5000 RPM: hovers around 13.2

Sometimes my DMM gives strange readings and I have to turn it off and on a couple times. It has a fresh battery in it but it is 10 years old at least, and wasn't a great one to begin with. Your basic 25 or 30 dollar unit.

Thanks.

[jeffyjeff]

emoyer,

your battery terminal voltage should be higher at speed than you report, I think you have a charging system problem. The Electrosport fault tree should help you pinpoint the problem to the stator, reg-rectifier, or the wiring.

That said, I do not think that a charging system problem is going to cause your FI light and notchy throttle response. If you havent cleaned the ECM connections, that would be a good place to start. Also, the round connector between the throttle body and the wiring harness would be a good candidate for cleaning. I recommend you use electrical contact cleaner made for automotive applications. LPS brand electical contact cleaner comes to mind, because it cleans the contacts and does not harm the plastic connectors. A toothbrush may help clean any crud off the contact terminals. Blow out the connector (with compressed air, if you have it) before assembly. good luck. Jeff J.

PS. dont use brake cleaner on electrical connectors, it will damage the plastic.

[emoyer]

emoyer,

your battery terminal voltage should be higher at speed than you report, I think you have a charging system problem. The Electrosport fault tree should help you pinpoint the problem to the stator, reg-rectifier, or the wiring.

That said, I do not think that a charging system problem is going to cause your FI light and notchy throttle response. If you havent cleaned the ECM connections, that would be a good place to start. Also, the round connector between the throttle body and the wiring harness would be a good candidate for cleaning. I recommend you use electrical contact cleaner made for automotive applications. LPS brand electical contact cleaner comes to mind, because it cleans the contacts and does not harm the plastic connectors. A toothbrush may help clean any crud off the contact terminals. Blow out the connector (with compressed air, if you have it) before assembly. good luck. Jeff J.

PS. dont use brake cleaner on electrical connectors, it will damage the plastic.

I cleaned the ECM connections with the connection cleaner I had (CRC QD) and took it for a ride. The problem did not happen. Rode it 40 miles. So either it was something to do with the ECM connections, or there was still a little bad gas in it when I tested it yesterday. And maybe the MAP sensor was never bad, but the replacement cost me only $35, and I will save the old one.

I am not assuming yet it is all fixed, and I will take the advice to go further in the Electrosport flowchart, but so far it is looking good. We will see what happens during my commuting this week.

Thanks again to everyone.

[MaxSwell]

Glad to hear problem gone. Hope it holds.

[CHUCK2]

Well..so far so good. Has to be somewhat of a relief.

[CandyRedRC46]

DO NOT PUT DIELECTRIC GREASE ON ANYTHING!

IT IS AN INSULATING AGENT. IT WILL RUIN YOUR CONNECTIONS!!!

Double check the main 30 amp fuse next to the battery. I lost mine a few months back. It was an intermeidiate connection and caused a lot of weird issues like leaning the bike out and stalling and power lose etc.

I beg to differ. Dielectric grease does indeed insulate between electrical terminals nested in a common connector, but it is also a lubricant. It is the KY jelly of electrical male and female terminals, and permits better contact and a lower resistance electrical connection. I have used Permatex dielectric grease on my RR connector for years. Jeff J.

i made the mistake of packing dielectric grease in all the connections on my bike when i first got it. looking at those same connections a year later, all the dielectric grease has burned up into a corrosive green powder. why did it burn up you ask? because it is an insulator. it inhibits the flow of electric current, causing heat and resistance. if you really want to put something in your connections, oxi gaurd is the stuff you want. it promotes conductivity and inhibits corrosion.

[CandyRedRC46]

Water in the gas? Have you had lots of rain lately?

There has been a lot of rain here recently. I assume you are talking about it getting into the underground tanks at the gas station? Because the bike lives in a garage, and I don't ride much in the rain. But would that make the computer think the MAP sensor was bad?

Double check the main 30 amp fuse next to the battery. I lost mine a few months back. It was an intermeidiate connection and caused a lot of weird issues like leaning the bike out and stalling and power lose etc.

CandyRed --

I started working thru the Electrosport flowchart this afternoon. Voltage at 2500 RPM was 13.4 and they want at least 13.5. Close but I went to the next step. Voltage from red wire on RR (at first connector) to battery (+) was 0.8 and they want no more than 0.2. So I decided to try checking the drop along the path. But first I shut the bike down and poked around a little. The 30A main fuse and socket looked ok, but I sprayed a little WD40 and replaced the fuse. Started the bike and was gonna check the path in steps, but the whole drop was now 0.16. And voltage at 2500 RPM was in the high 13's and stable.

Could that little bit I did have been important? Is this something like what you were talking about?

I still want to check the rest of the connections. And maybe eventually either do a VFRness or somehow other augment the main charge and ground paths.

Thanks.

i would just cut out that fuse and replace with a marine grade in line fuse. that factory fuse holder and design is prone to failure.

[kaldek]

You will absolutely get error codes from water in the gas. This guy saved money by draining his tank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjZR7JaPBco

You will only get error codes from water in the gasoline IF the ECU has the ability to detect misfires, which the VFR ECU does not - it's practically brain dead from a diagnostics perspective.

The codes shown in that YouTube video are from an OBDII compliant ECU.

[Switchblade]

DO NOT PUT DIELECTRIC GREASE ON ANYTHING!

IT IS AN INSULATING AGENT. IT WILL RUIN YOUR CONNECTIONS!!!

Double check the main 30 amp fuse next to the battery. I lost mine a few months back. It was an intermeidiate connection and caused a lot of weird issues like leaning the bike out and stalling and power lose etc.

I beg to differ. Dielectric grease does indeed insulate between electrical terminals nested in a common connector, but it is also a lubricant. It is the KY jelly of electrical male and female terminals, and permits better contact and a lower resistance electrical connection. I have used Permatex dielectric grease on my RR connector for years. Jeff J.

i made the mistake of packing dielectric grease in all the connections on my bike when i first got it. looking at those same connections a year later, all the dielectric grease has burned up into a corrosive green powder. why did it burn up you ask? because it is an insulator. it inhibits the flow of electric current, causing heat and resistance. if you really want to put something in your connections, oxi gaurd is the stuff you want. it promotes conductivity and inhibits corrosion.

+1 did the same thing and had the same results.

[jimmer]

The codes shown in that YouTube video are from an OBDII compliant ECU.

You will only get error codes from water in the gasoline IF the ECU has the ability to detect misfires, which the VFR ECU does not - it's practically brain dead from a diagnostics perspective.

Thanks. I hate passing on bad information.