Member Contributer arrow Posted January 22, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted January 22, 2014 I am planning to address the low speed fueling as well but I'd rather not get into decatting. Would it be still possible to smooth the low rpm delivery without this step? I am thinking about installing the following and then taking the bike to a tuning shop: Dynojet PC-V K&N Air Filter O2 sensor eliminators: I would think that this is necessary to obtain an optimum map. I saw that Dynojet supplies a bigger O2 sensor eliminator that must be welded; is this for the Autotune only? I am guessing since I'm not going to install an Autotune, I can just get O2 sensor eliminators in stock O2 sensor sizes. I replaced the OEM ones in my old 800 with the O2 eliminators and they went straight in since they were the same size. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynajohn Posted January 22, 2014 Share Posted January 22, 2014 I am planning to address the low speed fueling as well but I'd rather not get into decatting. Would it be still possible to smooth the low rpm delivery without this step? I am thinking about installing the following and then taking the bike to a tuning shop: Dynojet PC-V K&N Air Filter O2 sensor eliminators: I would think that this is necessary to obtain an optimum map. I saw that Dynojet supplies a bigger O2 sensor eliminator that must be welded; is this for the Autotune only? I am guessing since I'm not going to install an Autotune, I can just get O2 sensor eliminators in stock O2 sensor sizes. I replaced the OEM ones in my old 800 with the O2 eliminators and they went straight in since they were the same size. What do you think? The 02 sensor eliminators are supplied with the PC5 for the VFR12 and plug into the ECU harness connectors where you unplug the 2 stock 02 sensors. This is the hardest part of installing a PC5 as these wiring harness connectors are not easy to reach. These harness connectors are clipped to the inside of the frame, left side, near the front. Don't try to unplug them in place. Use a long thin blade screwdriver to release the connectors from their plastic holders on the frame. You can then pull the 2 02 connectors and slack harness down where you can easily disconnect the 02 sensors and install the DJ supplied plugs in place of the stock 02 sensors. You can leave the stock 02 sensors in place or if you remove them install male plugs in their place in the headers. The larger 02 weld sensor bung is for the auto tune kit. I don't know if if the PC5 and a dyno tune will remove all of the low throttle surge issues on a 2010 VFR12. Others here can probably answer that one. I did all modifications on my 2013 VFR (de-cat, Leo Vinci pipe, PC5, DJ auto tune, K&N filter, Dynojet quick shift, dyno tune) at the same time except installing a ZBomb which I installed before making the other changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rush2112 Posted January 22, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted January 22, 2014 Just to follow up, I've finished work so I'd like to elucidate. I'm not trying to be clever here but I am a retired engineer who started life as a very keen professional mechanic before graduating literally to other disciplines (nuclear engineering). Horsepower is a mathematically derived figure. It is derived from two values measured on a brake or dynamometer, torque and rpm. Horsepower is the rate of doing torque. You have universally; force, work (force x distance) and power (rate of doing work). An internal combustion engine produces little or no useful torque at low rpm hence the need for a gearbox. At zero rpm you get no torque (unlike some external combustion engines and electric motors - steam trains don't generally have gearboxes). Maximum torque is at the point when the engine is most efficient. Maximum torque is never in practice at the same rpm as the maximum power, it's always at a lower rpm. Different types of engines have very different relative torque and power positions on the rpm scale. Power is the product or multiplication of two numbers, Torque and N where N is the rate of revolution. There is also a constant figure involved. With SAE power the units used for torque are Imperial, ft.lbf. For DIN calculations metric units are used. The result is similar but not identical figures where DIN are higher. Correction Factors are also similar but different for the same reasons. Neither is wrong or optimistic, they are just different. So if we look at multiplying two numbers (and given that rpm on the graph always rises in a linear fashion), if torque is also rising then power rises quite sharply. If torque is constant then again power will rise at a linear rate all the time rpm increases as a constant number multiplied by a increasingly larger number is always increasing. In fact power will increase even when the torque value is falling so long as the product of the two increases. Power will increase with rpm as long as the engine is producing 'useful' torque. When this product or multiple stops increasing then you've reached maximum power. If you look at any set of torque power curves you will see this. The measured torque goes from nothing, rises and then falls. The power curve peaks after the maximum torque, in the case of the VFR1200 well after at about 3,000 rpm later at the point where torque drops off more than rpm increases. This maximum power is of course always calculated by multiplying the torque, the revs and the constant. It's the torque (less than maximum), and the rpm at the point at which maximum power occurs. For example: Dave's Viffer max power is at approximately 10,000 rpm. Torque at this point is also approx at 88 ft.lbf. (Taken from squinting at the screen - maximum is 95). Using the SAE formulae for horsepower, (2PiNT)/33,000 when N = 10,000 and T = 88 and Pi = 3.142 gives us: 167.57 horsepower. That's a SAE calculation btw. And standard VFR1200's usually dyne at 140 to 145 in my experience. Simples. I'm aware that brake technology has moved on but I believe that even on a modern inertia brake power is still computed from torque. By the way, I also received nothing but negatives from this forum when I published my power figures. I just read this old thread and I appreciate the info and explanations... I'm sorry you received nothing but negative feedback. I hope your experience on this forum has improved over the past year... Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer arrow Posted January 31, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2014 The 02 sensor eliminators are supplied with the PC5 for the VFR12 and plug into the ECU harness connectors where you unplug the 2 stock 02 sensors... I am about to pull the trigger on a PC-V. I looked at the Dynojet website but could not see any mention of O2 eliminators anywhere including the installation guide. Do they come in the package? Sorry for asking again, I just want to make sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer hvfrdave Posted January 31, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2014 Hi, you get 2 o2 eliminators with the PCV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer arrow Posted March 19, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 19, 2014 I'm going to get my bike de-catted (is that a word?) this Friday and I'll also install the PC-V and K&N Air Filter. The dyno guy will be out of town for a couple of weeks so I won't be able to get it fully tuned until then. I have a Z-Bomb and a carbon Akrapovic can as well. I'm trying to decide which map to run until I can get the bike tuned; would the standard "air filter and akrapovic can map" in the powercommander site be sufficient or would it make the bike run crappy? If so, would anyone who performed the decatting willing to let me "borrow" their maps until I can get mine properly tuned? I'll happily share my map after my dyno session by the way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer luvtoleanit Posted March 19, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 19, 2014 Do not ride that bike decatted without the bike being mapped other than the ride to the tuner. Those online maps probably won't have one for the decat. Perhaps Dave will give you his. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer hvfrdave Posted March 19, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 19, 2014 arrow, if you get in touch with Dynojet UK at Preston, via e mail, they will E mail you my de cat map, i hope this helps. :smile2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer arrow Posted March 20, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 20, 2014 Thanks for the help, I just sent them a mail. I hope I can get it until tomorrow . I will take pictures of the decatting process and post them here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted March 20, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 20, 2014 <SNIP>This maximum power is of course always calculated by multiplying the torque, the revs and the constant. It's the torque (less than maximum), and the rpm at the point at which maximum power occurs. For example: Dave's Viffer max power is at approximately 10,000 rpm. Torque at this point is also approx at 88 ft.lbf. (Taken from squinting at the screen - maximum is 95). Using the SAE formulae for horsepower, (2PiNT)/33,000 when N = 10,000 and T = 88 and Pi = 3.142 gives us: 167.57 horsepower. That's a SAE calculation btw. And standard VFR1200's usually dyne at 140 to 145 in my experience. Simples. Err brain out moment, sorry most machines don't maintain their torque that flat or for such a long rev range, I was just working from the max torque RPM figure, slapped wrist for not paying attention ! Well explained though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorlast Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 I was looking at this as I need to get a autotune for my 1200, and I have question about that first set of pics. Did you use to have a autotune O2 sensor welded to the cat before? one of those photos has the O2 sensor next to the cat [before it was taken off]. I'm trying to figure out where does the autotune bung for the O2 [btw why is it called O2? Single Oxygen atom should be O right?] sensor go if you keep the cat. I'm stationed in So Cal and the emission laws here are ridiculous, removing the cat could get me in trouble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer hvfrdave Posted March 22, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 22, 2014 Devorlast, I never had a autotune boss welded into the cat, and where the picture shows the o2 sensor and cat, was only so I new where the o2 sensor could be welded into the Y piece, because that is the only place I could fit the o2 sensor & boss without fowling anything on the engine and drive train, DON'T weld the o2 sensor boss, AFTER the CAT, it must be welded in front of the CAT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer arrow Posted March 22, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 22, 2014 OK, the bike has been decatted, K&N'ed and PC-V'ed. While at it I put the carbon Akropovic back on, as well as a Fuzeblock, 3BR USB plug, and a Powerlet socket kit. I'd already installed Bazzaz Z-bomb and Helibars before... Hvfrdave kindly let me use his maps until I can get my bike dynoed, once again thank you Dave! Wow... What a difference! Helibars make this bike so comfortable, they should be standard. Honda take note. The engine no longer chugs at low rpms in high gears. I subjected the bike to the Friday evening traffic in Istanbul and it handled everything like a dream. With the cat off and Akrapovic on (with baffle), it sounds really mean. A tad too loud perhaps, but still very good... I'll post pictures soon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer hvfrdave Posted March 22, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 22, 2014 Glad your sorted arrow, just be aware of what speed you are doing, because the VFR1200 now goes how it should of, when it left the factory, the torque curve is awesome. :smile2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorlast Posted March 22, 2014 Share Posted March 22, 2014 Lastly, I can't seem to find a boss piece on the dynojet website. Did you machine yours? once I get the autotune kit with the sensor I will know the threads and diameter it has to have but if there is a part on the market that is a simple cut and weld than it would save me some money compared to having it made on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer hvfrdave Posted March 23, 2014 Author Member Contributer Share Posted March 23, 2014 Devorlast, the boss comes with the Autotune, but when ordering your Autotune, ask for a stainless steel boss, otherwise it would come with a mild steel one as standard. :smile2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer arrow Posted March 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 24, 2014 Here are the pictures I promised, nothing fancy, but I promised I'd post them: I went for a ride yesterday and passed through two lane roads between little villages so I got to test the new found low rpm prowess. The asphalt was pretty broken at places with gravel scattered at blind curves, where you would meet huge trucks and tractors coming the other way and road works for 5 kms where they'd covered the road with thick gravel. The bike performed flawlessly. I once thought I was in 2nd gear (I have a Z-bomb) and the bike literally pulled from a walking pace in 3rd gear. I put the carbon Akrapovic back on and the exhaust note is really mean without being offensive and adds to the riding pleasure... I'm so happy with my bike now, I can't wait to ride again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorlast Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I have to say, your workshop looks awesome! As far as taking the exhaust system off as on your picture, is it all on those metal zipties with adjusting screws [clamps or whatever they're called]? I only took exhaust off the headers once in my old Nighthawk 750 and that had two nuts per cylinder. I'm trying to figure out how difficult will it be so I can DIY the dismantling and save some money vs getting a shop to do it plus weld for some 90$ an hour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer arrow Posted March 25, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted March 25, 2014 Oh no this is not my workshop, sorry for misleading you guys; I could only wish ! This is a Honda dealership which is very close to my house. I know the owner, who is a very nice guy and his rates are always favourable, Here is his site: http://www.hondaesengul.com I paid 160 USD for the removal and installation of the headers, removal of the standard exhaust and installation of the Akrapovic, installation of Fuzeblock, PC-V, and K&N Filter plus oil & filter change. I took the headers to a muffler shop and paid 18 USD for the removal of the cat and the welding of the Y shaped piece in its place. Could I have done it myself? Yes, I guess I could but I figured it'd be faster this way and good thing is I was there all the time, assisting the mechanic at certain times (with the installation of Fuzeblock, his English was elementary so I translated certain parts to him). The removal of the headers might take some juggling but there wasn't anything that gave us a hard time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devorlast Posted March 26, 2014 Share Posted March 26, 2014 That is a pretty good price, I just dropped off my 1200 today for a maintenance and tune up, 85$ an hour x4 hours +122$ for parts... I like doing work on the bike myself, just sometimes I'd rather get a professional since 1200 is quite a piece of bike and messing something up can have big consequences. Thanks for the info, Ill have to wait till May to get the autotune now as I just paid almost 500$ for maintenance already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smergy Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Just wondering what diameter/guage the pipe you guys are using for this decat and where you picked it up from? Interested in doing this as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer arrow Posted May 24, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted May 24, 2014 A member here kindly pointed me in this direction for my de-cat: https://www.jetex.co.uk/jetex/store/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=2903 Hope this helps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smergy Posted May 24, 2014 Share Posted May 24, 2014 Thanks for the link, any word how it fits/pics? Looking into this now, anyone know what the distance is between the centers of the 2 input pipes is? Wondering if this is a straight bolt on or needs some fab work A member here kindly pointed me in this direction for my de-cat:https://www.jetex.co.uk/jetex/store/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=2903Hope this helps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer arrow Posted May 26, 2014 Member Contributer Share Posted May 26, 2014 It needs a bit of fabrication, nothing too complicated just a bit of cutting. The muffler shop that I took it to did it in 1 hour; the welding is not the cleanest that I've seen, but it does the job. I guess it would take a bit longer if you want a very clean look, still shouldn't take too long though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smergy Posted May 27, 2014 Share Posted May 27, 2014 great, thanks for the response, I contacted JetEx about it, for reference the distance between the center of the 2 holes they said is 45.50 mm. Probably pick one up and see how it goes. I'll report back. Does anyone know the actual distance between the center of the 2 inlets? I'll take a look with some calipers today, although it would be easier to mesaure once its cut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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