joeystalin Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Never had this problem before, bike won't start after an oil change and also removing the clutch cover. Now I am not mechanically dis-inclined, far from it actually, but I don't know the VFR very well and this is the first time i've ever even had the plastics off. Chain of events went like this: - Rode 150 miles last Sunday, bike ran great, everything fine - 7,000 miles so about time for oil change, came home after ride and dumped the oil while bike was still warm. - Also removed clutch cover with plans to sand and repaint (rash from the previous owner.) - Decided to wait on that and put clutch cover back in place. Only hiccup was "sealing plug" next to ignition pulse generator came out, put it back in but unsure of orientation - Also lifted tank, removed intake snorkel and unplugged vacuum line from flapper valve (putting a plug back in the vacuum line to prevent a leak) - Went to bed and didn't do anything more until Tuesday - Tuesday evening, put on oil filter and drain plug, filled with about 2.6-2.7 quarts of new oil (site glass about midway between lines) - Started bike, ran it for about 10 seconds. turned it off, didn't want to annoy neighbors. - Saturday, go out to bike for ride, try to start and get this: Sounds terrible. WTF? Opened manual, realized oil should be at TOP line, but really 1/3-1/4 of a quart down will not damage an engine in such short order. Dropped the fresh oil (looked fine, no chunks of metal), pulled clutch cover off, looked around, nothing looks wrong. Pulled starter gears off, starter motor turns fine. Voltage is just fine. No odd lights on the dash. Oil filter is right part number (double checked). Plugged flapper valve at air filter back in. No change. All of these things that I did shouldn't have affected the bike negatively so I'm racking my brain to think of anything i might have inadvertently damaged without knowing it, and the only thing I can think of is the ignition pulse generator, but it is plugged in and does not look damaged. And I am worried because it just sounds bad when cranking. Any ideas on what I could have done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kman Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Check all the easy stuff first like is your fuel pump plugged in and operating. Is your run switch on the right handlebar in the run position.Have you checked for a spark at the plugs yet?It should be something as what you have told us should not have prevented it from running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VFRwhisp Posted May 6, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 6, 2012 I'm thinking it's very simple. Have you checked the wiring to your side stand switch? It disables electrical to your fuel pump I think. Cranking with no fuel makes the bike sound differant because you usually hear ignition going on as soon as you crank it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MBrane Posted May 6, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 6, 2012 I bet there's a problem with the pulse generator/wiring. That sounds like no ignition to me. You can hear the fuel pump priming when the kill switch is turned on. Sidestand/clutch is just like the kill switch i.e. no pump no starter. When changing the oil + filter I fill just to the top of the sight, and it comes down to halfway after the initial run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted May 6, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 6, 2012 That sounds like normal engine cranking - it's just not firing. When you mentioned "sealing plug" next to ignition pulse generator came out, did that mean the timing hole cap (threads in to the cover) or the rubber grommet through which the wires pass from the cover? If the latter, double check that the wiring through the grommet or the connection to the IPG were not damaged. Getting it twisted, chafed, partially pulled apart, etc could have created an intermittent problem. Wiggle the wires where they go through the cover and at the 2P connector and see if it starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystalin Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 That sounds like normal engine cranking - it' just not firing. When you mentioned "sealing plug" next to ignition pulse generator came out, did that mean the timing hole cap (threads in to the cover) or the rubber grommet through which the wires pass from the cover? If the latter, double check that the wiring through the grommet or the connection to the IPG were not damaged. Getting it twisted, chafed, partially pulled apart, etc could have created an intermittent problem. Wiggle the wires where they go through the cover and at the 2P connector and see if it starts. on the microfiche it is labeled as a "sealing plug", it is a metal pin that slides into the crankcase just to the left of where the ignition pulse generator is mounted. http://www.ronayers.com/Fiche/TypeID/26/Type/RIGHT_CRANKCASE_COVER/MakeID/1/Make/Honda/YearID/48/Year/2007/ModelID/4853/Model/VFR800A/GroupID/159987/Group/RIGHT_CRANKCASE_COVER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted May 6, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 6, 2012 So that's not it then - I was thinking you might be referring to the grommet on the IPG wire (#9) in this diagram http://www.ronayers....PULSE_GENERATOR Since it ran after you worked on it, it must be something simple - a loose connector, wire, etc. You have power from the battery, an operating fuel pump (so presumably no fuel issue) and the starter's turning the motor over - it just looks like no spark. I would re-trace your work, double check any connectors you dis-assembled making sure they're snapped closed, and check that the wires at the connectors are solid (with a gentle tug). You may have to remove the cover again and double check the connections to the pickup inside the cover. If you keep at it you'll find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystalin Posted May 7, 2012 Author Share Posted May 7, 2012 Not sure what the hell is going on. Tried it again a few times yesterday, lifted the tank, looked at all connections it may be, and well the battery died after a few attempts at cranking. So I threw the battery on the charger for a couple of hours. Battery back in, gave it a try, and it gave one or two ignition bites that made me hopeful. A few more tries and it finally started with some throttle application. I have no idea why or how this would happen. Bad batteries can create all kinds of problems, but I don't understand why it would have happened the way that it did, just when I was working on the bike. It was only 3-4 days between last running the bike and trying to start it. The battery is most likely original so it wouldn't be a bad idea to replace it, I will put this one on a load tester though and see how it does. I still don't trust the bike now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I'm calling the pulse generator/wiring also. It's the only thing you disturbed that would cause a no-start condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rice Posted May 7, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 7, 2012 I would plug the vacuum line back where it was, check the side stand wiring (just wiggle it a bit), check the kill switch and open up the tank to see if there is gas in it. All stupid things, I know. When you turn the key, do you hear the fuel pump going? I didn't hear that in the video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Cogswell Posted May 7, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 7, 2012 Not sure what the hell is going on. Tried it again a few times yesterday, lifted the tank, looked at all connections it may be, and well the battery died after a few attempts at cranking. So I threw the battery on the charger for a couple of hours. Battery back in, gave it a try, and it gave one or two ignition bites that made me hopeful. A few more tries and it finally started with some throttle application. I have no idea why or how this would happen. Bad batteries can create all kinds of problems, but I don't understand why it would have happened the way that it did, just when I was working on the bike. It was only 3-4 days between last running the bike and trying to start it. The battery is most likely original so it wouldn't be a bad idea to replace it, I will put this one on a load tester though and see how it does. I still don't trust the bike now... It's always good to have a fresh battery - the load test is the way to go to check that it can supply sufficient amperage at the correct voltage. However, a battery that can crank the rotating assembly properly should be providing enough amps to operate the ignition system - but strange things do happen. Once you get that sorted report back. In case it does start, go through the IPG and ignition wiring, wiggle each connector and look for anything that causes an intermittent problem. One other thought is to check the chassis grounds - be sure they're clean and tight. Poor grounds cause all sorts of weird problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Vee-Ef-Ar Posted May 7, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 7, 2012 - Also lifted tank, removed intake snorkel and unplugged vacuum line from flapper valve (putting a plug back in the vacuum line to prevent a leak) - Went to bed and didn't do anything more until Tuesday - Tuesday evening, put on oil filter and drain plug, filled with about 2.6-2.7 quarts of new oil (site glass about midway between lines) - Started bike, ran it for about 10 seconds. turned it off, didn't want to annoy neighbors. Is it entirely possible to suck air into the fuel line if the tank is lifted with only a small amount inside? I'm not saying this is what happened, but it raises the question. Looking at a simple diagram of the tank... it would have to be a pissy little amount I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted May 7, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 7, 2012 Two of those connectors( at the air box) are interchageablem sounds likr you have swap thim. Double check and make you have not swap the TPS and I think its the MAS sensor are the same connector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Switchblade Posted May 7, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 7, 2012 Opps did you take the air box off ? You can also unplug the fuel pump if your not careful and there vent line in that area you can pinch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeystalin Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 - Also lifted tank, removed intake snorkel and unplugged vacuum line from flapper valve (putting a plug back in the vacuum line to prevent a leak) - Went to bed and didn't do anything more until Tuesday - Tuesday evening, put on oil filter and drain plug, filled with about 2.6-2.7 quarts of new oil (site glass about midway between lines) - Started bike, ran it for about 10 seconds. turned it off, didn't want to annoy neighbors. Is it entirely possible to suck air into the fuel line if the tank is lifted with only a small amount inside? I'm not saying this is what happened, but it raises the question. Looking at a simple diagram of the tank... it would have to be a pissy little amount I think. Tank is nearly full so I doubt it. Opps did you take the air box off ? You can also unplug the fuel pump if your not careful and there vent line in that area you can pinch. I did not remove the airbox, I lifted the tank, and simply pulled the snorkel off and vacuum line to flapper. I didn't touch any electrical connectors. I am going to go back over everything with a fine tooth comb, unplugging and plugging, checking grounds, and be very hesitant about where I ride this thing in the near future until I feel comfortable with it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer dirtbag Posted May 8, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 8, 2012 shot in the dark... but maybe check your fuel filter. lifting the tank might have moved some gunk around. you would think riding a bike would keep the tank pretty mixed up in there, but maybe there was some good residue, or maybe the filter was nearly plugged anyways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted May 8, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'm not sure if the situations are alike but I recently had a similar experience. I have three 5th gens one (2000) of which I'm selling. It has not been ridden regularly; tough to keep three bikes charged up w/o a tender. My objective was to lube the chain. Instructions said to warm the chain with a short ride. So I took it around the neighborhood (five minutes). Then I lubed the chain and put the bike away. Came back the next day, and it would not start. I was in a hurry (a buddy and I were on our way to a bike night; I was planning on showing it with a for sale sign) so I put the 2000 back in the garage and took one of the red ones. The next day I went to the garage to check out the problem. My plan was to put my unused tender on to, hopefully, recharge the battery. First I tried to start it. The machine started right up. No further problems. So I figured: 1) the bikes battery may have been low when I went out to warm the chain. 2) the trip through the neighborhood was short and I did not get up to 5,000 rpm. (I recall reading somewhere that 5000 rpm is necessary to charge the battery.) 3) from being worn down and then shortly after being put away further diminished the battery. 4) given an overnight recovery opportunity, there was sufficient charge to start the machine. So I took it out for some high rpm riding and, theoretically, recharged battery. Seems to have worked. Hope you issue turns out to be similarly simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Engine needs three things to run. Air, fuel, and ignition source (spark). Check to make sure you are getting all three before you start throwing parts at it. Removing the airbox and observing what is going on while you try to start will confirm your air and fuel - as you can see everything happening in the throttles. Check spark by pulling a plug and grounding out the plug while cranking. Also make sure your plugs are not wet with fuel. If you are getting all three, then its either a fuel problem or ignition issue - either timing or weak spark. Additionally, if you suspect that your engine is flooded (wet plugs), you can hold the throttle wide open while cranking and the bike will not inject fuel. Helps to dry things out. Its entirely possible that you have some water-heavy gas in the tank. I just bought a '02 that wouldn't run at all, cranked just like yours did. There was nothing wrong with the bike except for some nasty two year old fuel in the tank. Also, get your battery on a charger, sounds like you are going to be cranking that engine a lot in the following days. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer MaxSwell Posted May 10, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted May 10, 2012 I've experienced wet sparkplugs. I'm not aware of how I might have flooded the engine. But it would crank and crank but would not start. (This was fairly early in my VFR ownership - I was feeling rather helpless.) I hauled it to a bike shop, they pulled the plugs and replaced them. Everything was fine after that. I have yet to change plugs myself, but I intend to learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Any luck so far Joey "stallin'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
entoptic Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 Just an afterthought but next time try to bump start the bike and see if it can turn over that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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