RC-51 fork swap

[Guest Pete McCrary]

I'm a little confused here guys and could use some help from someone who has done the RC-51 fork install before.

Assuming I am using All Balls tapered roller bearings, is the SP-1 triple clamp a direct bolt up to the VFR or is the SP-2 a direct bolt up? I know you have to make a spacer to account for the fact that the lower bearing on the VFR is 17 mm high while the RC-51 lower bearing is only 14 mm high.

I searched the Modifications Forum and couldn't find anything.

Any input/help/direction would be appreciated. I just recently purchased a complete RC-51/SP-2 front end.

I made the above statement based on a conversation I had with Alex at All Balls.

I went to RonAyers.com and did a part number search for the steering stem. Here is what I came up with:

53219-MCF-000 Fits 2000-2005 RVT1000

53219-MCF-D00 Fits 2000-2005 RVT1000

53219-MCF-D30 Fits 2000-2006 RVT1000

That would make me think there is no difference in an SP-1 and an SP-2 steering stem.

Say huh?

[FotoMoto]

There is a HUGE difference in sizes between the two RC units. The SP2 stem is much bigger in diameter; even the top nut is much larger: 41mm

I don't have any further advice on a VTEC install.

Good luck!

[AB-Oz]

You need the SP1 lower triple clamp and steering stem, the SP2 wont fit into the VFR headstock as it is a wider diameter. The parts list is wrong I'm afraid.

The same SP1 parts will fit 4th, 5th, 6th gen, Roy and I have done all three. I cant find my topic on the mod, but it was 3 years ago now...but here's a list of my parts used:

SP2 forks

SP2 wheel, rotors, spacers, axle

SP1 front fender

SP1 steering stem

SP1 Lower tapered roller bearings (+1mm spacer)

954 upper triple

929 helibars

954 front calipers

F4i front master cylinder

Hel braided front brake lines

EBC HH front pads

Pazzo levers

HTH

[Veefer800Canuck]

You definetly need the SP1 lower triple and the matching top nut for the stem. The rest will work.

[SEBSPEED]

I'm pretty sure All Balls will set you up with a custom bearing kit if you ask. I'm curious now to know if the VFR lower race will fit on the RC(SP1) stem. That would solve the height issue.

I would think that the degree of taper would be the same across all the bearing kits?

[Veefer800Canuck]

I'm pretty sure All Balls will set you up with a custom bearing kit if you ask. I'm curious now to know if the VFR lower race will fit on the RC(SP1) stem. That would solve the height issue.

I would think that the degree of taper would be the same across all the bearing kits?

Different I.D. No go.

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28433&view=findpost&p=336321

The VFR uses a 30x55x17 bearing whereas the RC51 uses a 35x55x14 bearing.

The VFR and RC51 SP1 upper bearings are interchangeable though, so all you need is a complete All Balls tapered kit for an SP1.

Oh and I searched the world over to find a 35x55x17 tapered bearing. If such an animal exists, Let me know, because I could not locate one anywhere.

[SEBSPEED]

Oh and I searched the world over to find a 35x55x17 tapered bearing. If such an animal exists, Let me know, because I could not locate one anywhere.

Did you ask All Balls if they'd make a custom set? They claim on their site that they do custom bearings for discontinued OEM replacements... ?

There's probably enough interest here to justify them making the set!

[Veefer800Canuck]

Oh and I searched the world over to find a 35x55x17 tapered bearing. If such an animal exists, Let me know, because I could not locate one anywhere.

Did you ask All Balls if they'd make a custom set? They claim on their site that they do custom bearings for discontinued OEM replacements... ?

There's probably enough interest here to justify them making the set!

No I did not. The snap ring spacers I used are performing just fine.

One guy over on SBN was ripping me for using them, I basically figured that since they are under compression at all times, what's ever going to work loose?

After 2 years hard use, I retorqued the headset and there was a SLIGHT loosening, but nothing you'd feel at the seat while riding, just noticed that I got a tiny bit of rotation on the bottom nut at 5 ft/lbs.

Plus, my steering stem is about 1mm proud of the top nut, so the installed stack height seems right to me, nothing has ever come loose nor given me the slightest problem, so I'm not going to chase a solution to what I see as a non-problem.

But if there WERE such a bearing available, I'd probably use it at the next routine replacement interval.

[SEBSPEED]

I only asked because I remember reading on their site about custom bearings when I did the swingarm bearings on my 83 750F. I'm sure the parts you used are just fine, I'm just thinking out loud is all.

Bailey has a Gixxer front end he wants to install in one of his VTECs, and the gsxr stem is the right length, but the diameters are off. I made the same suggestion to him, to try and call All Balls about custom parts. The worst they can say is no, right? :fing02:

[Veefer800Canuck]

I only asked because I remember reading on their site about custom bearings when I did the swingarm bearings on my 83 750F. I'm sure the parts you used are just fine, I'm just thinking out loud is all.

Bailey has a Gixxer front end he wants to install in one of his VTECs, and the gsxr stem is the right length, but the diameters are off. I made the same suggestion to him, to try and call All Balls about custom parts. The worst they can say is no, right? :fing02:

And if you DON'T EVER call and ask, then the answer is already NO, right?

[Guest]

OK guys, seems like Alex at All Balls was correct. He said it was a basically a bolt on operation with an SP-1 steering stem.

That is by no means the first time that I have run into problems with the parts numbers on the RonAyers.com website.

That's how I wound up with 2000 rear exhaust pipes when I did the catless header install a couple of years ago. They are not the same as the '98-'99. Made for a lot of extra work until Kevin figured out what had happened.

I know I'm going to have to spend a little extra money to get all of this to work. I found out when I opened everything up (package wise) that the forks have already been reworked by Thermosman with Ohlins internals.

I searched through FleaBay today and there is no SP-1 steering stem currently for sale. I'm registered over at the RC-51 site and I'll see if anyone over there has anything.

I have a Grizzly Manufacturing lathe in my shop so making the 3 mm shim necessary for the bottom bearing will not be a problem.

I figure getting the steering stem/triple clamps set-up is the key to making this whole thing work properly. I've set aside the winter to do this project so it's not like I have to have all of the right parts by this weekend.

It will come together. Just go to be patient.

AB-Oz, you are the man for making out the parts list. You just got a "Thank You" and a gold star for the day.

You get an extra hour of recess at school tomorrow. :fing02:

[Guest]

You need the SP1 lower triple clamp and steering stem, the SP2 wont fit into the VFR headstock as it is a wider diameter. The parts list is wrong I'm afraid.

SP1 Lower tapered roller bearings (+1mm spacer)

HTH

Ab-Oz & Veefer800canuck:

I assume the spacer goes between the lower tapered roller bearing and the top surface of the lower portion of the steering stem. Correct? Should be a piece of cake to make out of some 0.040" 5052 aluminum.

I know the VFR lower tapered roller bearing race is 17 mm high and the RC-51 bearing race is only 14 mm high. Is a 1 mm spacer sufficient or do I actually need a 3 mm spacer? If so, I can get one eighth inch (0.125") 5052 aluminum plate all day long at MSC. That would only be 0.005" too high. That's just an RCH.

Luckily, I already have All Balls tapered bearings in the VFR now so a lot of the work is already done.

[AB-Oz]

No worries mate, glad to help

just a note on the front fender, any from an SP1, SP2, 954, 929 will all work, they are the same...

As to the spacer, I'll try to dig up my notes and report back...

[Guest]

I would think that the degree of taper would be the same across all the bearing kits?

I ask Alex that question and never really got an answer. I would have to assume from a stocking stand point that they pretty well use the same bearing in all of their kits and just differ the race ID's/OD's between each kit.

Shouldn't be that hard to check when I have the two bearings side by side.

[Guest]

No worries mate, glad to help

just a note on the front fender, any from an SP1, SP2, 954, 929 will all work, they are the same...

As to the spacer, I'll try to dig up my notes and report back...

I know can do some part number digging and look it up, but are any of the above fenders available in "Italian Red" (paint code R157). As I have learned from going to different paint web sites, Honda has about a million different shades of red they use.

I certainly wouldn't want my fender to not match the rest of the bike. :fing02:

[vfrcapn]

You need the SP1 lower triple clamp and steering stem, the SP2 wont fit into the VFR headstock as it is a wider diameter. The parts list is wrong I'm afraid.

SP1 Lower tapered roller bearings (+1mm spacer)

HTH

Ab-Oz & Veefer800canuck:

I assume the spacer goes between the lower tapered roller bearing and the top surface of the lower portion of the steering stem. Correct? Should be a piece of cake to make out of some 0.040" 5052 aluminum.

edit: Oops, what he said below. My memory is a little fuzzy. :fing02:

I know the VFR lower tapered roller bearing race is 17 mm high and the RC-51 bearing race is only 14 mm high. Is a 1 mm spacer sufficient or do I actually need a 3 mm spacer? If so, I can get one eighth inch (0.125") 5052 aluminum plate all day long at MSC. That would only be 0.005" too high. That's just an RCH.

Luckily, I already have All Balls tapered bearings in the VFR now so a lot of the work is already done.

We're talking the spacer where veefer (and I) used circlips? Those (or 'that' if you've got a Grizzly lathe to machine up your own. :fing02: ) go above the lower race against the frame (between race and frame).

edit: Ooops, what he said below. My memory is a little fuzzy obviously. :fing02:

[Veefer800Canuck]

Ab-Oz & Veefer800canuck:

I assume the spacer goes between the lower tapered roller bearing and the top surface of the lower portion of the steering stem. Correct? Should be a piece of cake to make out of some 0.040" 5052 aluminum.

I know the VFR lower tapered roller bearing race is 17 mm high and the RC-51 bearing race is only 14 mm high. Is a 1 mm spacer sufficient or do I actually need a 3 mm spacer? If so, I can get one eighth inch (0.125") 5052 aluminum plate all day long at MSC. That would only be 0.005" too high. That's just an RCH.

Luckily, I already have All Balls tapered bearings in the VFR now so a lot of the work is already done.

Welp, I have this here diagram that 'splains a bit bettern I can:

Basically, you may not need the entire 3mm, it depends on whether or not you will have interference between the top surface of the lower triple and the bottom surface of the frame neck. You'd have to measure to be sure. Or drive the bearing on without spacers and do a test install.

Also, if you have the lower triple and stem in your hands, loose off the bike and try to slip on the top tapered bearing down the stem, it only goes down so far and then stops on a step machined into the stem.

Without the spacer(s) on the bottom (effectively) making the bearing 17mm thick, will that step on the stem come into contact with the upper bearing when assembling the steering head assembly on the bike? I'm not sure, bot it's worth looking into so that you are not tightening the upper bearing against the step in the stem and not getting correct preload on the bearing races.

For better pics of exactly what I did on mine, check the link below:

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=28433

And if you use a spacer or two, I would recommend steel over Al, just because I'm like that.

[SEBSPEED]

Why not just get a CBR929/954 lower clamp and stem? No spacers required with it - straight bolt-in with CBR bearings.

I can't confirm if the CBR lower will work well, but I can confirm that the CBR bearings = VFR bearings. :fing02:

[Guest]

veefer800canuck:

You are da man! Your sketch answered a ton of questions.

I agree about doing it with steel vs. aluminum. I'd want to go with stainless of course. It's just that SS is a lot more expensive than aluminum.

I think the best way to do it is to do a 3 mm spacer/shim underneath the bearing on the steering stem. I've already had the All Balls in my VFR for a couple of years now and the races are nice and seated. I'm afraid that by taking them in and out repeatedly, eventually the fit into the frame will not be so snug.

Also, but doing a single 3 mm (or 0.125" shim) I only have to make one part.

I will keep you guys posted as the saga proceeds.

Pete

[Veefer800Canuck]

veefer800canuck:

You are da man! Your sketch answered a ton of questions.

I agree about doing it with steel vs. aluminum. I'd want to go with stainless of course. It's just that SS is a lot more expensive than aluminum.

I think the best way to do it is to do a 3 mm spacer/shim underneath the bearing on the steering stem. I've already had the All Balls in my VFR for a couple of years now and the races are nice and seated. I'm afraid that by taking them in and out repeatedly, eventually the fit into the frame will not be so snug.

Also, but doing a single 3 mm (or 0.125" shim) I only have to make one part.

I will keep you guys posted as the saga proceeds.

Pete

If you're doing 1 shim @ 3mm, I'd say put it underneath the bearing on the steering stem and leave the race up in the frame alone.

Check the angles of the bearing races, I'll bet the 14mm bearing has a different contact angle than the 17mm one, so you'll probably wind up using the entire new RC51 bearing instead of half the new bearing + the race you already have in your frame.

As for stainless being more expensive, yes, but you're only making (1 of) something very small, so it's not a biggie like if you were making 1000 of them.

Also no rusting with SS. :fing02:

(or you could be a :goofy: and make two while you're at it so I can have one!)

[Guest]

Some how, some way, I wound up with an extra set of All Balls tapered bearings for my VFR. Can't exactly remember why I have them but I do.

I think my next step is to go ahead and order the lower set for an SP-1 steering stem. That way I can put everything side by side and check it all out.

Been doing a lot of thinking on this thing today. The more I think about it the more I think the way to do the task is to remove the bottom VFR race from the frame, make up a 3 mm shim and install the RC-51 race in the frame. That way I know for sure the bearing thrust face angle is correct and it cures the clearance issue. Also, I want to get the two bearings side by side to make sure the female portion of the 17 mm race doesn't touch the outer rim of the 14 mm bearing if I do a mixing of bottom bearing pieces.

Still can't decide between aluminum and SS though. The bearing race bears against the frame which is aluminum - so what advantage would I have to making it out of SS? (Kinda talking out loud to myself here).

A man has to work with the tools he has (no joke intended). The way I usually make disc shaped objects is to get a bi-metal hole saw from Home Depot, mount it up in my drill press, and then drill out a disk slightly larger than the finished size I need. I then drill out the center hole to be a very tight fit on an 8 mm bolt or whatever and then chuck it up in the lathe. Get the outside diameter correct, swap over to the large chuck jaws, and drill/bore out the interior opening to the desired diameter. I've drilled through half inch thick aluminum many times using this method. Wear goggles!!!!!!! You will be slinging lots of chips with a hole saw. The hole saw is pretty well shot after going through a piece of half inch aluminum.

[SEBSPEED]

Some how, some way, I wound up with an extra set of All Balls tapered bearings for my VFR. Can't exactly remember why I have them but I do.

I think my next step is to go ahead and order the lower set for an SP-1 steering stem. That way I can put everything side by side and check it all out.

Been doing a lot of thinking on this thing today. The more I think about it the more I think the way to do the task is to remove the bottom VFR race from the frame, make up a 3 mm shim and install the RC-51 race in the frame. That way I know for sure the bearing thrust face angle is correct and it cures the clearance issue. Also, I want to get the two bearings side by side to make sure the female portion of the 17 mm race doesn't touch the outer rim of the 14 mm bearing if I do a mixing of bottom bearing pieces.

Still can't decide between aluminum and SS though. The bearing race bears against the frame which is aluminum - so what advantage would I have to making it out of SS? (Kinda talking out loud to myself here).

A man has to work with the tools he has (no joke intended). The way I usually make disc shaped objects is to get a bi-metal hole saw from Home Depot, mount it up in my drill press, and then drill out a disk slightly larger than the finished size I need. I then drill out the center hole to be a very tight fit on an 8 mm bolt or whatever and then chuck it up in the lathe. Get the outside diameter correct, swap over to the large chuck jaws, and drill/bore out the interior opening to the desired diameter. I've drilled through half inch thick aluminum many times using this method. Wear goggles!!!!!!! You will be slinging lots of chips with a hole saw. The hole saw is pretty well shot after going through a piece of half inch aluminum.

One thing to keep in mind if you want to put a spacer on top of that frame race(the lower outer race) - the machined area in the frame was dimensioned for the shorter ball type race. **Make sure, that if you use a tapered roller race with this shim on top, that you will have enough overlap between the race and the machined area in the frame!** If not, you're going to wear out the bore in the frame!

I mention this because I can see the gap around the tapered bearing with a straight replacement - the extra 1/8"(3mm) will bring the lower face of the bearing almost even with the bottom surface of the frame. If I had to guess(never measured the depths), you will only be engaging at best half of the race with that shim in there.

You'd be much better off putting the spacer under the bearing and dust seal on the lower triple, *IMO*.

Also, use WD-40, Boelube, and/or kerosene to keep your cutting chips to a minimum when using your hole saw with AL. It'll cut down on chips and extend the life of your saw by a lot! :biggrin:

[Guest]

Thanks for the heads up Seb. I haven't started taking things apart yet so I haven't had the chance to do any measuring, comparing etc.

I do believe (as stated previously) that getting the steering stem right is the most critical part of the project.

I'll keep you posted.

[AB-Oz]

I just ground the steering stop blobs off the SP1 lower triple, didn't bother making new ones.

Haven't had any troubles with it.

[KevCarver]

Why not just get a CBR929/954 lower clamp and stem? No spacers required with it - straight bolt-in with CBR bearings.

That true in a Fifth Gen?