SEBSPEED Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Why not just get a CBR929/954 lower clamp and stem? No spacers required with it - straight bolt-in with CBR bearings. That true in a Fifth Gen? Yes. You may need to fiddle with the steering stops, but it will slap right in. :fing02: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Why not just get a CBR929/954 lower clamp and stem? No spacers required with it - straight bolt-in with CBR bearings. That true in a Fifth Gen? Yes. You may need to fiddle with the steering stops, but it will slap right in. :fing02: PMFJI, It might be helpful for him if you guys clarify the difference between the 954 and 929 stems n' bearings... :twocents: Sure thing; one goes in a 954, the other in a 929. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 My saga is getting more and more interesting. I have made several posts on the RC-51 website and it has been verified that the steering stem that came with the forks is not an RC-51 steering stem. Neither an SP-1 or SP-2. I got in touch with the FleaBay seller and he swears straight up and down that he saw these forks removed from an RC-51. He sent me an e-mail this AM saying that this guy did a ton of front end work on the bike as he was racing the bike. I asked him to get in touch with the previous owner and find out just why the steering stem is different. My steering stem is "flat". It is not a gull wing type as is used by both the SP-1 and SP-2. Therefore, it looks like I may already have a 929/954 steering stem. It has the big steering stop "tangs" right in the middle like a gull wing type stem. I will take some pics tonight and post them to get the board's opinion on exactly what I have. I may actually be ahead of the game. But the question in my mind remains, why would someone with an RC-51 want to install a 929/954 steering stem on an SP-2? BTW, what is PMFJI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted December 17, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted December 17, 2009 My saga is getting more and more interesting. I have made several posts on the RC-51 website and it has been verified that the steering stem that came with the forks is not an RC-51 steering stem. Neither an SP-1 or SP-2. I got in touch with the FleaBay seller and he swears straight up and down that he saw these forks removed from an RC-51. He sent me an e-mail this AM saying that this guy did a ton of front end work on the bike as he was racing the bike. I asked him to get in touch with the previous owner and find out just why the steering stem is different. My steering stem is "flat". It is not a gull wing type as is used by both the SP-1 and SP-2. Therefore, it looks like I may already have a 929/954 steering stem. It has the big steering stop "tangs" right in the middle like a gull wing type stem. I will take some pics tonight and post them to get the board's opinion on exactly what I have. I may actually be ahead of the game. But the question in my mind remains, why would someone with an RC-51 want to install a 929/954 steering stem on an SP-2? BTW, what is PMFJI? If he raced, he has probably crashed! :pissed: Maybe found the cheapest stem available in a short time to make the next race weekend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted December 17, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted December 17, 2009 Why not just get a CBR929/954 lower clamp and stem? No spacers required with it - straight bolt-in with CBR bearings. That true in a Fifth Gen? Yes. You may need to fiddle with the steering stops, but it will slap right in. :pissed: PMFJI, It might be helpful for him if you guys clarify the difference between the 954 and 929 stems n' bearings... :twocents: Sure thing; one goes in a 954, the other in a 929. Yeah, but which goes where? :fing02: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Why not just get a CBR929/954 lower clamp and stem? No spacers required with it - straight bolt-in with CBR bearings. That true in a Fifth Gen? Yes. You may need to fiddle with the steering stops, but it will slap right in. :pissed: PMFJI, It might be helpful for him if you guys clarify the difference between the 954 and 929 stems n' bearings... :twocents: Sure thing; one goes in a 954, the other in a 929. Yeah, but which goes where? :fing02: 929 lower triple = 954 lower triple. Or were you asking something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 929 lower triple = 954 lower triple. Or were you asking something else? They have a different stem and bearings... Then why would the part numbers be the same, I ask you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted December 17, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted December 17, 2009 Then why would the part numbers be the same, I ask you? Because that's the post-recall part number, however many of the used 954 stems you will find, still have the earlier stem with roller bearings. It's just something that's good to know when digging for parts... :twocents: So, what is the difference? Are the stem lengths and bearing diameters different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Woo Hoo! Looks like things are working out in my favor! Got an e-mail from the original owner. Mike Fitzgerald (Thermosman) had redone the forks for him with Ohlins internals. As you may or may not be aware, the RC-51 comes from the factory with the forks in a "negative" preload configuration, i.e. they are already partially compressed. I think that is due to the design of the "top out spring". Once Thermosman reworked them and got them so they had their full travel, the original owner couldn't drop the front end enough to get his ride height correct using the SP-2 gull wing type steering stem. So it does have a 954 steering stem with All Balls installed. He also installed a set of 954 clip ons which are about an inch higher than the SP-2 clip ons. And best of all, the guy's weight was only 10# less than mine. So the valving, springs, etc should be good to go as is. And he says it was a track day bike only, that he didn't race it. Maybe I came out ahead after all. Only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Then why would the part numbers be the same, I ask you? Because that's the post-recall part number, however many of the used 954 stems you will find, still have the earlier stem with roller bearings. It's just something that's good to know when digging for parts... :twocents: Online microfiche shows 2 part numbers for the 929, original and superceded. These 2 numbers are the exact same #'s used in the 954 fiche. :pissed: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Woo Hoo! Looks like things are working out in my favor! Got an e-mail from the original owner. Mike Fitzgerald (Thermosman) had redone the forks for him with Ohlins internals. As you may or may not be aware, the RC-51 comes from the factory with the forks in a "negative" preload configuration, i.e. they are already partially compressed. I think that is due to the design of the "top out spring". Once Thermosman reworked them and got them so they had their full travel, the original owner couldn't drop the front end enough to get his ride height correct using the SP-2 gull wing type steering stem. So it does have a 954 steering stem with All Balls installed. He also installed a set of 954 clip ons which are about an inch higher than the SP-2 clip ons. And best of all, the guy's weight was only 10# less than mine. So the valving, springs, etc should be good to go as is. And he says it was a track day bike only, that he didn't race it. Maybe I came out ahead after all. Only time will tell. That's great news on the fork setup Pete! I think you'll want to use the 929/954 upper triple to bring your fork caps lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Woo Hoo! Looks like things are working out in my favor! Got an e-mail from the original owner. Mike Fitzgerald (Thermosman) had redone the forks for him with Ohlins internals. As you may or may not be aware, the RC-51 comes from the factory with the forks in a "negative" preload configuration, i.e. they are already partially compressed. I think that is due to the design of the "top out spring". Once Thermosman reworked them and got them so they had their full travel, the original owner couldn't drop the front end enough to get his ride height correct using the SP-2 gull wing type steering stem. So it does have a 954 steering stem with All Balls installed. He also installed a set of 954 clip ons which are about an inch higher than the SP-2 clip ons. And best of all, the guy's weight was only 10# less than mine. So the valving, springs, etc should be good to go as is. And he says it was a track day bike only, that he didn't race it. Maybe I came out ahead after all. Only time will tell. That's great news on the fork setup Pete! I think you'll want to use the 929/954 upper triple to bring your fork caps lower. Very possibly. Now that I know what I have, I know which direction to work in. Just need to get it bolted up with what I have now and see how it fits. He said that once Thermosman reworked the forks, they were nearly two inches longer than original. I'd like to have as much space as possible between the upper and lower triple clamps just for structural rigidity. He described the handling of the bike after Thermosman's work as "golden". Only time will tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 That's great news on the fork setup Pete! I think you'll want to use the 929/954 upper triple to bring your fork caps lower. Very possibly. Now that I know what I have, I know which direction to work in. Just need to get it bolted up with what I have now and see how it fits. He said that once Thermosman reworked the forks, they were nearly two inches longer than original. I'd like to have as much space as possible between the upper and lower triple clamps just for structural rigidity. He described the handling of the bike after Thermosman's work as "golden". Only time will tell. The VFR weighs more than the RC, doesn't it? You'll have to set sag at minimum! Bike + rider weight will be up, so I wouldn't count on it being "golden" for you. I know you already know this, just thinking out loud here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 You'll have to set sag at minimum! Set the sag? You worry about the most minor details. I bet you're one of those guys that checks the air pressure in his tires too. :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted December 17, 2009 Share Posted December 17, 2009 Online microfiche shows 2 part numbers for the 929, original and superceded. These 2 numbers are the exact same #'s used in the 954 fiche. :comp13: A parts list microfiche does not show ECI history for a part... Here is a picture of a 929 lower triple side by side with a 2002 954 unit replaced under TSB during the Product Update Campaign. (voluntary recall) As you can see, the 2002 954 came with tapered roller bearings while the 929 unit had balls as evidenced by the lower race. (The 954 stem also was waisted differently) Since the "update" was voluntary, there are still quite a few of these units out in the world... The update was for the bearings, wasn't it? Wonderful. It's got nothing to do with how the stem fits in the bike though, and the lower clamps are the same! So as I said, fitment is the same. My 06 1000RR lower clamp looks just like that 954 clamp! :biggrin: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted December 19, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted December 19, 2009 Online microfiche shows 2 part numbers for the 929, original and superceded. These 2 numbers are the exact same #'s used in the 954 fiche. :angry: A parts list microfiche does not show ECI history for a part... Here is a picture of a 929 lower triple side by side with a 2002 954 unit replaced under TSB during the Product Update Campaign. (voluntary recall) As you can see, the 2002 954 came with tapered roller bearings while the 929 unit had balls as evidenced by the lower race. (The 954 stem also was waisted differently) Since the "update" was voluntary, there are still quite a few of these units out in the world... The update was for the bearings, wasn't it? Wonderful. It's got nothing to do with how the stem fits in the bike though, and the lower clamps are the same! So as I said, fitment is the same. My 06 1000RR lower clamp looks just like that 954 clamp! :fing02: Picture go bye bye... So same deal as just replacing the bearings anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 The All Balls kit for the VFR stem and the 954 stem are the exact same part number (22-1020), therefore the 954 steering stem is an exact bolt in. May have to do some work on the steering stops. The 954 stem I have has a tapered lower bearing on it now but I'm assuming it's a Honda factory bearing. It has a silver colored roller cage whereas All Balls uses black colored roller cages. Not sure if all tapered roller bearings have the same thrust face angle, so I'm going to replace the lower tapered roller bearing with an All Balls just to make sure. BTW, the website address for All Balls is www.goallballs.com. If you go to just www.allballs.com, it takes you to a site that has nothing to do with motorcycle bearings. :goofy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 The All Balls kit for the VFR stem and the 954 stem are the exact same part number (22-1020), therefore the 954 steering stem is an exact bolt in. May have to do some work on the steering stops. The 954 stem I have has a tapered lower bearing on it now but I'm assuming it's a Honda factory bearing. It has a silver colored roller cage whereas All Balls uses black colored roller cages. Not sure if all tapered roller bearings have the same thrust face angle, so I'm going to replace the lower tapered roller bearing with an All Balls just to make sure. BTW, the website address for All Balls is www.goallballs.com. If you go to just www.allballs.com, it takes you to a site that has nothing to do with motorcycle bearings. :goofy: Might try calling All Balls or even just emailing them to ask about the angle? Would be worth the effort... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 The All Balls kit for the VFR stem and the 954 stem are the exact same part number (22-1020), therefore the 954 steering stem is an exact bolt in. May have to do some work on the steering stops. The 954 stem I have has a tapered lower bearing on it now but I'm assuming it's a Honda factory bearing. It has a silver colored roller cage whereas All Balls uses black colored roller cages. Not sure if all tapered roller bearings have the same thrust face angle, so I'm going to replace the lower tapered roller bearing with an All Balls just to make sure. BTW, the website address for All Balls is www.goallballs.com. If you go to just www.allballs.com, it takes you to a site that has nothing to do with motorcycle bearings. :goofy: Might try calling All Balls or even just emailing them to ask about the angle? Would be worth the effort... The kit is cheap and I already have one here in a package. The same bearings fit my ST1300. I'll do the front end on the VFR before I do the ST1300. Bearing kit is only about $32 or so. I'm replacing all the hardware, seals, wheel bearings, etc any how. Might as well do it right. The more I think about the fitment issue (if indeed I have one) the more I think the proper solution is to find somebody with a bigger lathe than what I have and have them machine the step on the steering stem about 3-4 mm further along the shaft. Then there is no shim, snap ring, etc issue to deal with. I just need to find a shop with an 8" swing or greater lathe. I can make up a force fit plug on my lathe that would fit into the bottom of the steering stem. Then they could chuck it up in a 3 jaw chuck, use a live center on the top end of the stem, and make the cut in 5 minutes. Even with the RC-51/SP-2 forks and all the other parts, I'll probably still spend $150-200 dollars in putting on new clean hardware, bearings, seals, etc. I think the guy that owned the forks before me only had an adjustable wrench, a pair of pliers, and a blade screw driver to do his work. Both preload nuts are rounded off, the big blue cap on one fork is all skint up, etc. All kinds of rounded off hardware and hardware that's obviously in the wrong place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Update to my progress. Baketech and I have been swapping PM's all day. Come to find out I actually have a 929 steering stem with God knows what kind of tapered roller bearing on it (well, it was on it). I was cleaning the stem up to take some pics and the lower tapered roller bearing just fell off and rollers went everywhere. Hmmmmmm....... I don't think that is the way Honda or All Balls intended it. Never seen one come apart like that. I jigged up the stem on my 4" wide belt sander to get rid of the horn tang and make the bottom surface flat and square. I noticed that the steering stem is recessed into the lower triple clamp by about 5.15 mm. Without having ever seen another 929 steering stem I don't know if that is correct or not. According to Baketech, the stem is simply pressed into the lower triple clamp. Lower triple clamp is aluminum and the stem is steel. If all of this is the case and I run into the elusive 3 mm difference as I would with an SP-1 steering stem, why can't I just press the steering stem 3 mm further down into the lower triple clamp? That seems like it would eliminate the need for any kind of spacer, machining of the stem, etc. I'd love some input on this situation from others who are more knowledge about 929/954 stems than I. Edited 10:28 PM Spoke too soon guys. The steering stem has a diameter of 32 mm on the bottom and 30 mm on top (where the tapered bearing goes). I have to assume that the stem is either tapered from 32 to 30 mm or that there is a ridge inside the lower triple clamp and the steering stem shaft has a 32 mm section up so far from the bottom and then steps down to 30 mm. That would make me believe that Honda assembles steering stems by pressing the stem into the lower triple clamp from the bottom, not from the top downward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer vfrcapn Posted December 27, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted December 27, 2009 Update to my progress. Baketech and I have been swapping PM's all day. Come to find out I actually have a 929 steering stem with God knows what kind of tapered roller bearing on it (well, it was on it). I was cleaning the stem up to take some pics and the lower tapered roller bearing just fell off and rollers went everywhere. Hmmmmmm....... I don't think that is the way Honda or All Balls intended it. Never seen one come apart like that. I jigged up the stem on my 4" wide belt sander to get rid of the horn tang and make the bottom surface flat and square. I noticed that the steering stem is recessed into the lower triple clamp by about 5.15 mm. Without having ever seen another 929 steering stem I don't know if that is correct or not. According to Baketech, the stem is simply pressed into the lower triple clamp. Lower triple clamp is aluminum and the stem is steel. If all of this is the case and I run into the elusive 3 mm difference as I would with an SP-1 steering stem, why can't I just press the steering stem 3 mm further down into the lower triple clamp? That seems like it would eliminate the need for any kind of spacer, machining of the stem, etc. I'd love some input on this situation from others who are more knowledge about 929/954 stems than I. Edited 10:28 PM Spoke too soon guys. The steering stem has a diameter of 32 mm on the bottom and 30 mm on top (where the tapered bearing goes). I have to assume that the stem is either tapered from 32 to 30 mm or that there is a ridge inside the lower triple clamp and the steering stem shaft has a 32 mm section up so far from the bottom and then steps down to 30 mm. That would make me believe that Honda assembles steering stems by pressing the stem into the lower triple clamp from the bottom, not from the top downward. Is the stem steel? Looks a lot like the AL RC stem. Have a magnet to test it? AL RC stem on the right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted December 27, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted December 27, 2009 Update to my progress. That would make me believe that Honda assembles steering stems by pressing the stem into the lower triple clamp from the bottom, not from the top downward. That is they way Kawasaki does it, so I would assume it is industry standard. I was trying to swap stems between the 2 gens of 636 a couple years ago and found that they had a ring around the stem that snapped into a ridge in the bottom clamp. So not completely dependent on the press fit to hold it in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 That would make me believe that Honda assembles steering stems by pressing the stem into the lower triple clamp from the bottom, not from the top downward. Yes, the stems are pressed in from the bottom! The stem has a very slight taper on the bottom, and as well as being an interference fit, this helps the stem stay in the lower when you tighten the nuts up top! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 I swear this site is a gold mine of information. It is like having access the largest VFR library in the world! Seb - you are correctamundo. The stem is definitely non-ferrous so I'm assuming aluminum. Had not even given a second thought that it might be something other than steel. It does have a slight gold tint to it that I assumed was a cadium coating on steel. I guess this is one of the little tricks Mother Honda used to get the CBR929/954 down below 400# dry. How does any one accomplish major mods on a bike without having boards such as VFRD to bounce ideas off of and mine for information. Thanks to you, Perham, and Baketech. You all get thank you's and a big gold star for today. I have contacted the principal at your respective schools and you each get an extra hour of recess when school starts back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted December 27, 2009 Member Contributer Share Posted December 27, 2009 I swear this site is a gold mine of information. It is like having access the largest VFR library in the world! Seb - you are correctamundo. The stem is definitely non-ferrous so I'm assuming aluminum. Had not even given a second thought that it might be something other than steel. It does have a slight gold tint to it that I assumed was a cadium coating on steel. I guess this is one of the little tricks Mother Honda used to get the CBR929/954 down below 400# dry. How does any one accomplish major mods on a bike without having boards such as VFRD to bounce ideas off of and mine for information. Thanks to you, Perham, and Baketech. You all get thank you's and a big gold star for today. I have contacted the principal at your respective schools and you each get an extra hour of recess when school starts back. Sweet! Hey let me know if you need an extra set of hands sometime. :fing02: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.