Bad Battery?

[TimC]

I did a search, but now I'm just looking for opinions.

History: A couple months ago I killed my battery by leaving my bike ON but not running after stopping the engine but not turning the key off. (Duh.) It was very dead, but I successfully jump-started it with my wife's Accord. Everything was fine afterward.

A few weeks ago while riding to Toledo on the OH Turnpike, I noticed at a steady pace (say, an indicated 80 mph) the power would start to drop off a bit on the engine...doing 80 and it dropped a few mph, 'til I goosed the throttle just a bit and it picked right back up over 80 again. I thought it might be a PCIII issue since I'd installed it a week or two before that. Didn't bother me enough to worry much about it.

Yesterday morning I started the bike to go to work, it ran for a couple seconds and dies. Still had instruments and lights, but it's never done that before. Ran fine with 2nd start, went to work, no other issues yesterday.

Started the bike this morning and it's ran at about 1k rpm, whereas I set the idle at 1250 rpm and of course when starting for the first time each day it idles high, maybe 1400-1500 rpm 'til it's warmed up. This morning it increased idle speed to normal after warmed up a bit.

On the way to work, doing an indicated 80 mph or so on the freeway, my bike started to die like it had no juice. I started thinking about how I'm going to get over to the right shoulder from the left lane in moderate traffic. It kind of ran down but didn't totally die. After 3-4 seconds of this it picked back up and I was able to get to work OK, which was only a couple miles from that point.

Checked the battery cables before going to lunch and they were OK. Left work, went to the bank, came out of the bank, started the bike, ran weakly at 1k rpm for 1-2 seconds and died. Tried again and it did the same thing. 3rd time I revved it up a bit to keep it from dying and it was fine the rest of my lunch hour around town and back to work.

Will stop and buy a voltmeter on the way home from work tonight and check the battery when I get home. (BTW, mine is an '04 VFR with ~26k miles on the odometer, original battery still in bike.)

So, whaddya think, folks? Bad battery or symptom of something a bit more substantial? Wiring harness recall was done months ago and I've had no other issues. (Didn't have any before the harness was replaced either.) Has anyone else experienced this with their 6th gen, and if so what did the cause end up being?

Thanks in advance!

[Rivcyko]

Sounds like text book battery issues. It is, I assume, the original?

[NVR2L8]

Part of my thread about surging touched on the symptom when holding a steady throttle the engine would seem to lose power, and when you increase the throttle is would suddenly catch and speed up. I also had a few instances of a very low idle when stopping at a light, and after restarting the bike it would run normally. It was when running errands during lunch one day that I had a few very slow starts, so before it left me stranded I decided to replace the battery on my then 2 year old battery ('05 VFR). With the new battery installed the high speed surging was gone and the bike has run great since then. BTW, does your battery cranking power seem a little weak?

[Beck]

Part of my thread about surging touched on the symptom when holding a steady throttle the engine would seem to lose power, and when you increase the throttle is would suddenly catch and speed up. I also had a few instances of a very low idle when stopping at a light, and after restarting the bike it would run normally. It was when running errands during lunch one day that I had a few very slow starts, so before it left me stranded I decided to replace the battery on my then 2 year old battery ('05 VFR). With the new battery installed the high speed surging was gone and the bike has run great since then. BTW, does your battery cranking power seem a little weak?

Could the surging and dying symptoms be a direct affect from your injection/fuel management system not getting consistent power levels from your seemingly dying battery?

Beck

95 VFR

[Baileyrock]

Tim,

Most of your issues can be related to a failing battery except the 80 mph run problems(unless the battery is shorting out internally). At 80 mph the bike is running off the Alt. and really doesn't need a battery if it's working correctly.

When you jump your bike off your wife's car, was her car running? I hope not, never jump a bike off a a running car, way to many AMPs to run into the bikes battery and even elec. system IMO. :fing02:

[NVR2L8]

Tim,

Most of your issues can be related to a failing battery except the 80 mph run problems(unless the battery is shorting out internally). At 80 mph the bike is running off the Alt. and really doesn't need a battery if it's working correctly.

When you jump your bike off your wife's car, was her car running? I hope not, never jump a bike off a a running car, way to many AMPs to run into the bikes battery and even elec. system IMO. :fing02:

Yea, you wouldn't think at 80+ mph that the battery could cause the feeling where power is dropping off only to have it pick up suddenly when you twist the throttle a little. But that is exactly what my '05 was doing, and it had this problem for about 6 months, but once I installed a new battery the symptom immediately disappeared. In fact, no more freeway speed stuttering/surging is the first thing I noticed with the new battery. So I say your battery is at the end of its life...

[TimC]

Thanks for the responses everyone. :warranty:

To answer a few questions above:

-Yes, it's the original battery. I'm about to hit 26k on it, so it won't surprise me if it's dying.

-The intermittent issue with the battery could indeed be affecting the PCIII. Great point, Beck! I hadn't thought of that.

-I did stupidly have my wife's car running when I jump-started the bike a couple months ago. (D'oh!) But in my defense, it wasn't working without the car running, or at least not working quickly enough since I had to get somewhere. No other problems with the electrical system that I've noticed, but I probably did overload the original battery. But who's to say it wouldn't have failed around now anyway?

I did buy a decent multimeter this evening and checked the battery when I got home. Granted, the alternator system would have 'charged' the battery by the time I pulled into the garage, but when I checked it, the battery had 13.22 volts, which is at the top of the range, per the service manual.

What's ironic about this, however, is that I had a devil of a time getting the bike to start and run when leaving Radio Shack! :laugh: I took a chance and rode to a rehearsal tonight in Cleveland (45 miles away). Not one problem with it this evening, thank God. I'm going to recheck it tomorrow morning with the meter and see what I get. I'm tempted to put my trickle charger on it but won't, as I really want to get this solved ASAP the the trickle charger keeping the battery charged won't help me determine if it's the battery that is the issue here.

Thanks to NVR2L8 for the helpful info. Sounds like our problems are very similar. I'm fairly certain the battery is the problem, and your posts here made my (hopefully correct) diagnosis easier. I just hope one of the local dealers has a new battery in stock, as I'm planning to ride to Cleveland again twice this weekend!

Oh, THREE more questions for those of you who have replaced your OEM batteries:

1. What brand/model did you buy?

2. Where did you buy it?

3. What was the approximate cost?

Thanks again!

[Birdman]

Oh, THREE more questions for those of you who have replaced your OEM batteries:

1. What brand/model did you buy?

2. Where did you buy it?

3. What was the approximate cost?

Funny you mention it. I just bought one today. Normally, I'd buy one online, but found myself strapped for time and bought it at the dealer.

1. Yuasa YTZ12S

2. Honda/Kawasaki dealer in Temple City, Ca (a great store)

3. $160 + tax

I know, I got ripped. But didn't have any choice and they gave me good service.

The real lesson, however, is do not go cheap on your battery. Buy the best one you can get.

[michaelf3]

Oh, THREE more questions for those of you who have replaced your OEM batteries:

1. What brand/model did you buy?

2. Where did you buy it?

3. What was the approximate cost?

Funny you mention it. I just bought one today. Normally, I'd buy one online, but found myself strapped for time and bought it at the dealer.

1. Yuasa YTZ12S

2. Honda/Kawasaki dealer in Temple City, Ca (a great store)

3. $160 + tax

I know, I got ripped. But didn't have any choice and they gave me good service.

The real lesson, however, is do not go cheap on your battery. Buy the best one you can get.

Now you tell me, because I just bought an aftermarket for $60.00 at Pep Boys. We'll see if this last longer than the stock one. The stock one died on me today; only one year old. I was wondering if this would be cover under warranty?

[NVR2L8]

I bought my aftermarket replacement battery from motorcyclebatteriesusa.com, but I think they are out of business now as the site doesn't come up. I also googled the company by name, and saw a few unfavorable posts so I advise staying away from that vendor. So sorry I can't help with a source, but I do know that you can go with a YTZ14S instead of the stock YTZ12S. The dimensions are the same...the 14S is a little heavier but offers slightly more Amp/Hr and CCA's.

YTZ12S

Dimensions: 6" L x 3 7/16" W x 4 3/8" H

Actual Weight (lb.): 8.1

Shipping Weight (lb.): 9

DC Output Voltage: 12v

Amp/Hr: 11

C.C.A.: 210

or

YTZ14S

Dimensions: 6" L x 3 7/16" W x 4 3/8" H

Actual Weight (lb.): 8.6

Shipping Weight (lb.): 10

DC Output Voltage: 12v

Amp/Hr: 11.2

C.C.A.: 230

[TimC]

Checked my battery this morning and the multimeter read 12.9 volts. I'm a little surprised. And it started up after pressing the start button for a second or two. Still didn't rev up to 1.4-1.5k rpm while warming up like it usually does, but I had no problems on the way to work today.

So now I'm a little confused. I still think the battery is the issue, and I'm fine with swapping it out if that's it. I just don't want to be out and have the thing die on me even after I change the battery.

A local dealer has both the YTZ12S and YTZ14S in stock, but they are pricey at $192 and $214 respectively. Gotta be able to find these cheaper somewhere.

Other than going ahead with the battery swap and seeing if there is any change, my only option might be taking it to the shop to have them check it out. But you'll excuse me if I don't have that much faith in them on this. Don't get me wrong - they've done fine so far with my VFR, but I don't know how competent they are with solving electrical issues. I should probably just handle it myself, but I'm not a great mechanic.

BTW, I'll probably go with the 14S, as I'm thinking it would better for future electrical mods (grip warmers, powerlet for GPS, etc.). Opinions?

[Baileyrock]

There's some good On-line sources for batteries listed somewhere here, search it out.

Just because your battery shows good voltage doesn't mean it's good. It needs load tested and even then it may have a loose or bad plate that shorts out occasionally causing the issue.

How did everything else test out? :comp13:

[TimC]

How did everything else test out? :comp13:

Haven't had a chance to dig into the rest of it. Will finally have some time tomorrow morning/afternoon. Will probably pull the existing battery and get it load tested, as well as check out other components on the bike.

[Baileyrock]

-I did stupidly have my wife's car running when I jump-started the bike a couple months ago. (D'oh!) But in my defense, it wasn't working without the car running, or at least not working quickly enough since I had to get somewhere. No other problems with the electrical system that I've noticed, but I probably did overload the original battery. But who's to say it wouldn't have failed around now anyway?

A running car can be putting 40-80 amps into that little m/c battery and cause plate damage imo, there only designed to take like 6 amps max charge, a trickle charger uses less then an amp.

That could have damaged your battery imo.

There are off brand batteries out there for $70-80 and Yulsa for $120-130 if you dig. :comp13:

[spud786]

[Order mail order . you'll get rapped at the dealer

I just did a battery check on mine and it was after a long run(4 hrs 12.79 volt, I think mines on the way out the door, I know it should sit over 13 volt at full charge. Key on 12.2 volts

Mediocre at best, I'm hooking up electrics for the winter, I think the battery is going to have to go

being mines an 06, that battery is probably right at 3 years old

[michaelf3]

I just a new battery and did a check yesterday. Ignition off and engine off, the volt meter read 12.87. Ignition on and engine on, low beam, 13.74. Ignition on and engine on, high beam, 12.86. All this was at idol.

[TimC]

Update: Rode to Cleveland Fri. night for a gig, no problems other than once when I turned off the bike for a minute it took a few tries to get it started again.

Pulled the battery Sat. and took to an auto parts store to have it load tested. Couldn't do it as they can't test smaller batteries, just car batteries. Put it back in and checked leakage - was within spec. Checked with bike running, high beams on and engine at 5k rpm - read (IIRC) 14.2 volts.

I'm a little confused on this. I don't have my service manual in front of me, but IIRC it said that during that test (charging system test?) below 15.5v it's a bad battery. If that's true, then it's the battery for sure. I increased my idle speed 100 rpm so it isn't idling as low during warm-up.

Took another chance and rode to Cleveland for another gig last night, as the bike had been running fine. Got there and back with no problems. But this morning when I went to start the bike it would not start. Key on, instrument cluster up, cranked over but did not start. Upon switching off the ignition and turning it on again, it sounded like the fuel injection pump was a little weak, tho that could have been a misperception on my part.

I'm already planning to buy a new battery, but will check the existing one again when I get home. I'll also probably hook up my battery tender and see if it makes any difference later tonight or tomorrow morning.

If anyone has had a fuel pump go bad, what were the symptoms leading up to you replacing it? I haven't heard of many going bad, so I'm really hoping it's just the battery. And if it is the battery, I'm surprised it would have enough juice to crank a few times but not enough to start the engine.

[Baileyrock]

I'm a little confused on this. I don't have my service manual in front of me, but IIRC it said that during that test (charging system test?) below 15.5v it's a bad battery. If that's true, then it's the battery for sure. I increased my idle speed 100 rpm so it isn't idling as low during warm-up.

No, system should be charging 15.5 volts or less to be acceptable.

Battery below I think 12.6 volts needs charging and min. running charge should be something like 13.5v imo.

I think you Cooked a few plates in the battery when you jumped it off the car and besides that it's already 4 plus years old. :biggrin:

[TimC]

I'm a little confused on this. I don't have my service manual in front of me, but IIRC it said that during that test (charging system test?) below 15.5v it's a bad battery. If that's true, then it's the battery for sure. I increased my idle speed 100 rpm so it isn't idling as low during warm-up.

No, system should be charging 15.5 volts or less to be acceptable.

Battery below I think 12.6 volts needs charging and min. running charge should be something like 13.5v imo.

I think you Cooked a few plates in the battery when you jumped it off the car and besides that it's already 4 plus years old. :blink:

Not to argue with you, BR, but I think the battery was within spec. If I've read the manual right, during the 'charging voltage inspection' (on page 17-9 in the svc manual) the reading should be between the battery's normal measured (sitting/off) voltage (13.0v-13.2v) and 15.5v. It was at 14.2v during the test, so I think it was OK.

Checked the battery voltage when I got home and it was just short of 13v, which is normal. Tried to start it again and sure enough, as I thought I perceived this morning, there was no sound from the fuel pump cycling. Hit the starter and it would not start. Tried it again and this time the pump and bike started. Tried it a few more times and the pump and bike started correctly each time.

So now I figure it's a fuel pump issue, not a battery issue. I may still need to replace the battery soon, but I don't believe that's what is causing my problems at the moment.

I'll dig into this more later this week when I have some time, but what really bugs me is how the problem is intermittent. I didn't even move the bike from it's spot in the garage between trying it. Didn't work this morning and once this evening, then it works 5 times in a row. I just tried it again and tho I could hear the fuel pump start and the bike cranked over, it would not start. Very frustrating. Until I get this 100% solved I'll be driving the stupid car.

BTW, I've found some threads on the fuel pump issue already, so no need to post up here with solutions. (Thanks anyway tho, in case you would have!) I would, however, like to hear opinions as to why it's working SOME of the time but not ALL the time.

BTW #2: I've said on numerous occasions that I'm not much of a mechanic. So I have to say that tho this would have been a pretty simple diagnosis for most of you, I'm kinda proud of myself for getting this far with it. If it's something simple I think I can handle it. Replacing the fuel pump (God forbid) might be over my head, but I'm getting better. :fing02:

[spud786]

I just a new battery and did a check yesterday. Ignition off and engine off, the volt meter read 12.87. Ignition on and engine on, low beam, 13.74. Ignition on and engine on, high beam, 12.86. All this was at idol.

From what i've seen on these AGM batteries on a couple different bikes, right after a long (run) they will usually be sitting right at 13volt or 13.1. They dissipate after several hours but should hold 12.7 volt. Mine sat for a couple hours before I checked it, but I was expecting to see 13 or right at it.

running charge I was around, 14v at idle, 5,000 rpm around 14.5volt. It may be my battery is giving up alttile from age, yours show to be a little better and was that 12.87v right after a long run or sitting along time?

upon replacement ,I think i'll get that st1300 battery, seems to be the same size with more oats

[Baileyrock]

Tim,

You will never find a bad(voltage) number on a shorted battery unless you happen to check it when it's in it's shorted state, that's the whole point of a damaged/shorted battery problem, it test normal and is an intermittent problem.

Also it doesn't sound like a fuel pump problem to me, even if the pump doesn't prime it should crank with the starter every time.

Good luck!

[Stumpthumper]

http://www.chaparral-racing.com/Chaparral/...E69B35E5B52691E

YTZ14S $131.99

YTZ12S $126.99

[TimC]

Tim,

You will never find a bad(voltage) number on a shorted battery unless you happen to check it when it's in it's shorted state, that's the whole point of a damaged/shorted battery problem, it test normal and is an intermittent problem.

Also it doesn't sound like a fuel pump problem to me, even if the pump doesn't prime it should crank with the starter every time.

Good luck!

Thanks for all the info, BR. I just tried it again and tho it cranks strongly it still won't start. I'm starting to wonder if that is b/c the fuel pump isn't actually pumping any fuel. Or maybe it's a faulty bank sensor. :fing02:

I'm not manic about many things, but this is one of them. Can you tell? :dry:

I'm sorry to sound so clueless on this, but I don't get how if the bike is cranking normally but not starting that it can be a battery problem. I take back what I said about getting better at mechanical things. I feel like a fish out of water here. :blink:

When I tried it again a few minutes ago I got the same results: Ignition on, run/kill switch set to run, instruments and lights on, fuel pump cycles (whirs/makes noise for a couple seconds), starter cranks normally but bike does not start. Checked the battery voltage and it read 12.87v. Hooked up battery tender and will try it later once the battery is up to 13+ volts again.

http://www.chaparral-racing.com/Chaparral/...E69B35E5B52691E

YTZ14S $131.99

YTZ12S $126.99

Thanks for that info, Stumpthumper! I was bidding on a new YTZ14S on ebay the last couple days but didn't win the auction. Kinda glad now, as the pricing above is very good.

BTW, folks - and I feel stupid asking this - is it OK to use the YTZ14S instead of the 'recommended' YTZ12S that most specs show as the replacement unit for the OEM battery? Any reason not to? Dimensions are the same, and I figure a little more juice is better, but I don't want to take any chances.

[NVR2L8]

I've been running a YTZ14S for about a year and a half now...no problems at all. It's a suitable...if not better...replacement for the YTS12S. At least it is in my opinion...

I still have a feeling that it's your battery and not your fuel pump. If nothing else, can you borrow a good battery from someone and run it for a few days to see if it resolves your problem? It's certainly an easier thing to try before pulling the tank and replacing the pump, which is not all that hard by the way. I would also at least run the fuel volume test before I replaced the pump...

[Baileyrock]

When I tried it again a few minutes ago I got the same results: Ignition on, run/kill switch set to run, instruments and lights on, fuel pump cycles (whirs/makes noise for a couple seconds), starter cranks normally but bike does not start. Checked the battery voltage and it read 12.87v. Hooked up battery tender and will try it later once the battery is up to 13+ volts again.

Tim,

In this scenario it sounds like everything is working(fuel pump, starter, battery), you should get the few seconds of fuel pump priming every time the key is turned on with the start switch on.

At this stage you might have fouled plugs on top of whatever the root problem is, next time you try and it still won't start, but the pump primes, pull a plug and see if it's wet! :biggrin: