enzed_viffer Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 He told me that your average solar panel takes up to 9 times the energy to produce that it actually returns during its lifetime. They are horrendously inefficient at the moment, but improving slowly as pressure comes on to find alternatives to fossil fuel derived energy sources. Your son got hold of old and severely exaggerated information. Yeah, well I did say I hadn't checked it out for myself. :fing02: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FactoryRC46 Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 Very Cool! Something different AND putting some otherwise unused/unusable VFR bits to a good use. Suggestion - If you need any more electronics or electrical goodies, get in touch with Sparky Electronics on Blackstone Ave. in Fresno CA. One of their regulars shows up on a 700 he has converted to EV. It isn't nearly as nice looking (no plastic), and he uses a Fisher motor and 24V batteries. Not sure what controller he uses. I met the guy by chance in front of the store - the bike was quick off the line, and fast enough to run about town. The really cool/weird part was him zipping off without any engine noise. He claimed a 75 mile run time and he charged it at work so his operating cost was zero. I don't think it was registered or insured. Personally I'd like to find a VF500 in good shape, got any leads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 7, 2008 Author Share Posted May 7, 2008 (edited) 75 Miles? Wow, what is he on! Not with lead batteries, not with a heavy 700 and definately not with 24V.... i think he might be yankin your chain... but maybe if he's using lithium, but not at 24V....thats craziness! But yeah, I'll keep that place in mind. Its an ongoing project, but its gaining more momentum now, because the end is more near than before. Its not going to be an impressively ranged EV at first, but it will look and drive nice and get some exposure, support and who knows, maybe I'll sell conversions. We've got a VF500 right now, bare frame, no engine, needs some work, but in decent shape, no title Thats the next project. I'll keep an eye out, but keep an eye on craigslist, thats where I got the first VFR. Crazedlist.org is good too (searches ALL cities of CL). Edited May 7, 2008 by frodus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 16, 2008 Author Share Posted May 16, 2008 I got some more work done, we fabricated some battery trays, and should have them finished by next week. Then we can wire this b*tch up! Click on the pic to read more: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 Another little update: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 The biggest thing that turns me off to conversions is how the batteries just look like they are stuffed in there, whatever ones will fit. I would love to see some care taken to the asthetic nature in molding the batteries into the bike to disguise them a bit. Are they lead acid, or gel type? Do they have to be oriented vertically, or can they be angled? Is there any room for using regenerative braking or similar on a bike? Seems like there would be possibilities to use the wheels for this, where a car would be harder to adapt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rice Posted May 23, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted May 23, 2008 This is an amazing project and very timely as well. I am watching with a lot of interest. Also of interest is the fact that the rise in oil prices has brought alternative technologies to the forefront. I like! Keep up the good work! On a related note, you seem very knowlegable in this electric business. Would you or anyone else know how much power it takes to charge an average electric car? A ballpark? Or a possible source to find this info? I'll appreciate any help in finding this out. The reason I'm asking is I am helping with a case study for a company that owns a patent for a 99.995% efficient power switching technology. The goal is to show savings on the example of electric car that their technology provides vs. regular 80% efficient technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 The biggest thing that turns me off to conversions is how the batteries just look like they are stuffed in there, whatever ones will fit. I would love to see some care taken to the asthetic nature in molding the batteries into the bike to disguise them a bit. Are they lead acid, or gel type? Do they have to be oriented vertically, or can they be angled? Is there any room for using regenerative braking or similar on a bike? Seems like there would be possibilities to use the wheels for this, where a car would be harder to adapt. Did you look at our racks? I think we did a great job fitting in square batteries into a bike... plus the fairings cover it up. I used smaller ones that fit better inside the chassis.... Its not like companies are going to create cells that are "molded" to a form factor. What batteries were you thinking that could be "molded" or "disguised"? I'm all ears. I chose a small form factor for that reason. You should see the other guys trying to fit car batteries in theirs. Don't get started on lithium either, I'm not going to spend $5-10k for a battery pack.... I chose these for cost/form factor and ability to get high voltages and higher speed/efficiency. The batteries are Gel, and they can be oriented as shown in the pictures. SLA's and Gels can be oriented any way you want. Its the flooded batteries you have to orient horizontal. People don't use those in motorcycles because of the danger of spilling. As far as "room" for regen.... do you know what regen is? It uses the push on the motor when you slow down.... the motor acts like a generator and charges the batteries. I can't do regen with this motor without modification, but we're working on an AC system, and that will have regen capability, in the same form factor as the motor/controller on this bike. You don't put anything else on the wheels to do regen, it has to do with the motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 The biggest thing that turns me off to conversions is how the batteries just look like they are stuffed in there, whatever ones will fit. I would love to see some care taken to the asthetic nature in molding the batteries into the bike to disguise them a bit. Are they lead acid, or gel type? Do they have to be oriented vertically, or can they be angled? Is there any room for using regenerative braking or similar on a bike? Seems like there would be possibilities to use the wheels for this, where a car would be harder to adapt. Did you look at our racks? I think we did a great job fitting in square batteries into a bike... plus the fairings cover it up. I used smaller ones that fit better inside the chassis.... Its not like companies are going to create cells that are "molded" to a form factor. What batteries were you thinking that could be "molded" or "disguised"? I'm all ears. I chose a small form factor for that reason. You should see the other guys trying to fit car batteries in theirs. Don't get started on lithium either, I'm not going to spend $5-10k for a battery pack.... I chose these for cost/form factor and ability to get high voltages and higher speed/efficiency. The batteries are Gel, and they can be oriented as shown in the pictures. SLA's and Gels can be oriented any way you want. Its the flooded batteries you have to orient horizontal. People don't use those in motorcycles because of the danger of spilling. As far as "room" for regen.... do you know what regen is? It uses the push on the motor when you slow down.... the motor acts like a generator and charges the batteries. I can't do regen with this motor without modification, but we're working on an AC system, and that will have regen capability, in the same form factor as the motor/controller on this bike. You don't put anything else on the wheels to do regen, it has to do with the motor. My apologies, my thoughts and my words did not work together...common problem with me actually. My thoughts about the batteries were not a knock on your current (sic) project, but rather just my random thoughts that most conversions I have seen look quite blocky...much of it having to do with car sized batteries as you mentioned. I can well imagine that companies could indeed design a molded battery, it's just that the demand hasn't reached the incredible cost of developement yet. Again, when I was thinking of regenerative braking, it wasn't having to do with the motor (that was an assumed use actually, I errantly thought most EV's used that)...what I was referring to was turning the wheel itself into a generator of some sort. I don't know what options exist, but the design of a motorcycle tire(ability to reach both sides fairly easily) would seem to lend itself to such a prospect...kind of like turnign the wheel into a big generator, with the ability to disable it to keep it from working against the motor of course. Let me reiterate that I love your project, I encourage more people to try this stuff, I was just stating my opinion on the asthetic value of the blocky look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 (edited) On a related note, you seem very knowlegable in this electric business. Would you or anyone else know how much power it takes to charge an average electric car? A ballpark? Or a possible source to find this info?I'll appreciate any help in finding this out. The reason I'm asking is I am helping with a case study for a company that owns a patent for a 99.995% efficient power switching technology. The goal is to show savings on the example of electric car that their technology provides vs. regular 80% efficient technology. Well, just as it is with Gas cars, depends on how far you go... and how much energy you consume. Lets say your car can get you 50 miles on a charge, safely. Lots of cars cruise between 300-400Wh/mile. Say thats 20000Wh, or 20kWh. Use your local utility company bill for dollars/kWh and see what that works out to be. Thats a good guestimate on cost. If its 10 cents a kWh, then 10*20 is 2 bucks. This doesn't account for charger inefficiencies, but assume that you'll get 70% of the wall power into the batteries.... so you might use 26kwh to charge it back up, and it would cost roughly $2.60. Motorcycles and cars average below 4 cents a mile... if that helps [edited for anal retentive Loni... hehe] Edited May 27, 2008 by frodus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 23, 2008 Author Share Posted May 23, 2008 My apologies, my thoughts and my words did not work together...common problem with me actually.My thoughts about the batteries were not a knock on your current (sic) project, but rather just my random thoughts that most conversions I have seen look quite blocky...much of it having to do with car sized batteries as you mentioned. I can well imagine that companies could indeed design a molded battery, it's just that the demand hasn't reached the incredible cost of developement yet. Again, when I was thinking of regenerative braking, it wasn't having to do with the motor (that was an assumed use actually, I errantly thought most EV's used that)...what I was referring to was turning the wheel itself into a generator of some sort. I don't know what options exist, but the design of a motorcycle tire(ability to reach both sides fairly easily) would seem to lend itself to such a prospect...kind of like turnign the wheel into a big generator, with the ability to disable it to keep it from working against the motor of course. Let me reiterate that I love your project, I encourage more people to try this stuff, I was just stating my opinion on the asthetic value of the blocky look. Oh, ok, following you now. I thought you were referring to this project... I totally agree with you, seems like the rest of the one's I've seen are mostly hack together projects. I put some thought into this to make it look like a bike that someone would want to drive. The cost of making a molded battery wouldn't be that bad, the problem is, its not modular, its for ONE design of bike and would likely not fit in another bike. Lots of development cost for each bike they design. Best idea is to use small (like C or D size) lithium batteries that can be installed in small sub packs. As far as the generator on the wheel idea... adding any weight to the wheel for magnets would increase the energy needed to accelerate to speed. Adding coils would add weight, and when you put the load (batteries) on the coils from the generator, its going to load the wheel. Imagine this: You have a hand crank generator hooked to nothing... you turn it, it turns freely, because there's no load. Put one light bulb on it, and it may be a little harder to spin. Put enough light bulbs on the generator and you can actually lock the rotor. The gains of adding a generator are negated by physics... it would be better to add another battery or two for more range. Just because lead is heavy, doesn't mean it doesn't get you that much further..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chas4vfr Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Great Thread! Keep up the good work and can't wait to see how it turns out. I've been researching adding solar to my house, with the goal of building an EV to be charged via solar. I think your idea is a big step in the right direction - when you finish the project I, for one, would like to know what the total cost of the build ends up at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tightwad Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 My apologies, my thoughts and my words did not work together...common problem with me actually.My thoughts about the batteries were not a knock on your current (sic) project, but rather just my random thoughts that most conversions I have seen look quite blocky...much of it having to do with car sized batteries as you mentioned. I can well imagine that companies could indeed design a molded battery, it's just that the demand hasn't reached the incredible cost of developement yet. Again, when I was thinking of regenerative braking, it wasn't having to do with the motor (that was an assumed use actually, I errantly thought most EV's used that)...what I was referring to was turning the wheel itself into a generator of some sort. I don't know what options exist, but the design of a motorcycle tire(ability to reach both sides fairly easily) would seem to lend itself to such a prospect...kind of like turnign the wheel into a big generator, with the ability to disable it to keep it from working against the motor of course. Let me reiterate that I love your project, I encourage more people to try this stuff, I was just stating my opinion on the asthetic value of the blocky look. Oh, ok, following you now. I thought you were referring to this project... I totally agree with you, seems like the rest of the one's I've seen are mostly hack together projects. I put some thought into this to make it look like a bike that someone would want to drive. The cost of making a molded battery wouldn't be that bad, the problem is, its not modular, its for ONE design of bike and would likely not fit in another bike. Lots of development cost for each bike they design. Best idea is to use small (like C or D size) lithium batteries that can be installed in small sub packs. As far as the generator on the wheel idea... adding any weight to the wheel for magnets would increase the energy needed to accelerate to speed. Adding coils would add weight, and when you put the load (batteries) on the coils from the generator, its going to load the wheel. Imagine this: You have a hand crank generator hooked to nothing... you turn it, it turns freely, because there's no load. Put one light bulb on it, and it may be a little harder to spin. Put enough light bulbs on the generator and you can actually lock the rotor. The gains of adding a generator are negated by physics... it would be better to add another battery or two for more range. Just because lead is heavy, doesn't mean it doesn't get you that much further..... My thought was to use the wheel generator to create charging power when braking...heck, they could even be used as stopping power the way you explain it....increase the load to it and it increases the braking power(rear wheel only), use an RPM comparison between wheels to ensure you aren't locking the rear wheel of course....like the reverse of a rev limiter. The weight of the magnets in the wheel was a concern to me as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superfunkomatic Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 this is a remarkable idea and something worth exploring. with increasing demand for fuel and decreasing supply (or maximized supply), alternatives to straight fuel are starting to make a lot of sense. frankly, if i had a perfectly silent bike that would get me around town on an electric charge, and have some fun zip from the motor, i'd be sold on the idea. can't wait to see the final working model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer magellan Posted May 24, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted May 24, 2008 Lets say your car can get you 50 miles on a charge, safely. Lots of cars cruise between 300-400Wh/mile. Say thats 2000Wh, or 20kWh. Use your local utility company bill for dollars/kWh and see what that works out to be. Thats a good guestimate on cost. If its 10 cents a kWh, then 10*20 is 2 bucks. This doesn't account for charger inefficiencies, but assume that you'll get 70% of the wall power into the batteries.... so you might use 26kwh to charge it back up, and it would cost roughly $2.60. Motorcycles and cars average below 4 cents a mile... if that helps I hate to nitpick, but I know you meant 20,000Wh :beer: It's also important to note that a car rarely averages as high as 400Wh/mile, especially in city traffic with its stops and starts, but to cruise at 55 mph for an hour requires a fair bit of capacity (e.g. 20 kWh). There are few electric cars with that much storage, but I've heard of a few homebrew EVs with 40+ kWh with lithium-ion. The Tesla Roadster is packing 56 kWh of carefully monitored and liquid-cooled L-Ion and is achieving 200+ miles of real-world range. Improvements in battery technology are being driven by big investment and scores of manufacturers globally, so I can't wait to see what form factors are available in five years. I'd be happy if I could pack 10 kWh into a L-Ion sportbike with quick-release modular clam-shell packs split along the bike's centerline with highly impact-resistant composite outer shells that mimic lower fairings and numerous software and hardware safety systems to eliminate the possibility of fires or electrocution (picture something like GFCIs throughout the pack to limit voltage, triggered by the tilt sensor, anomalous discharge, or any other significant fault). Then I want to see an EV supersport race series... :fing02: Top-level racing drives technology, and advances in safe fuel storage and efficiency are two big dividends that have been applied to petrol-powered cars. Similar advances are needed in the EV niche. Since electric drive is already gaining great respect in drag racing circles, it's time for the next big step: wheel-to-wheel endurance racing. One problem is that physics limits storage of electrons with anything near the energy density of gasoline. Even if the theoretical limits of battery storage are reached, gas still wins (but electricity will be be around for as long as the planet. Gas won't...), so in EV racing I imagine numerous pit stops to exchange quick-release packs. Should make for high drama. Wait and see, it will happen in time. :fing02: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 27, 2008 Author Share Posted May 27, 2008 you're such a nitpicker. Haha, we both are. You question my math, I question your welds I missed a 0, but did the calcs right and as far as the 300-400.... thats normal for the cars I've seen on evalbum... for rough estimates on Wh needed, you should use a Wh that is higher than what you would cruise at 35mph. That way, no matter what the driving (55, or 25) your range at 55 is what you wanted it to be, and even further at 25mph.... Its just a good gauge/estimate on range. You won't be driving a car/motorcycle all the time at 25-25mph. 300-400 is a good estimate for DC motor cars... Ac is different as you know. I was taking worst case scenerio. The bike we're building up is likely going to be 100-125Wh/mile with a 2600Wh pack (80% DOD is 2080Wh) and thats with new batteries. These are lightly used and should get me 15-20 miles. We'll see this week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer magellan Posted May 27, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted May 27, 2008 I question your welds So do I. We are so screwed.... :unsure: :laugh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 27, 2008 Author Share Posted May 27, 2008 I question your welds So do I. We are so screwed.... :unsure: :laugh: good thing the motor/batteries/controller/contactor/motorcycle all ended up being free Only thing I paid for on that bike.... was the PDA for the gauges, cable/crimp connectors for the batteries, headlights and some mounting bolts If something happened, my losses are low ... haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forum CEO HispanicSlammer Posted May 27, 2008 Forum CEO Share Posted May 27, 2008 I have been following this post for a while now, interesting post for sure, and no I am not appalled by the use of a vfr frame and plastics - that is cool. Never much cared for the look of the old vfrs of the 80's anyway. They where race bikes back then, but most bikes looked butt ugly in the 80's. I wonder how well that motor can stand up to weather condtions, rain, salt air and stuff like that? I think it will handle better if you can get batteries up front in front of the motor. Keep posting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted May 28, 2008 Author Share Posted May 28, 2008 I have been following this post for a while now, interesting post for sure, and no I am not appalled by the use of a vfr frame and plastics - that is cool. Never much cared for the look of the old vfrs of the 80's anyway. They where race bikes back then, but most bikes looked butt ugly in the 80's. I wonder how well that motor can stand up to weather condtions, rain, salt air and stuff like that? I think it will handle better if you can get batteries up front in front of the motor. Keep posting We tried to keep the COG as far forward of the motor... to kind of encase it inside. It is air cooled, so it needs room to breath... The motors are fine with water, just not submerged. As long as you keep it clean (spray off once in a while and clean off) they should last a while. I'll be avoiding rain when I can, and it won't be driven in the snow. Its a summer bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 So, she's actually running now. Click the pic below for the blog entry and some pictures. I posted a video, but its dark. I'll get more tonight and throw it up on youtube. I'll do a walkaround as well. Looks like frankenbike, but it'l be cleaned up. We just wanted to get it together so we can begin testing. Accel is slow, because I chose a 13 tooth front, stock rear... to start. I'll be changing to 11tooth tonight to see how it helps. We might go larger sprocket to help even more. It JUST got running, and there's lots of work to be done (and it looks like frankenstein without the fairings). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted June 19, 2008 Member Contributer Share Posted June 19, 2008 I had missed this thread until now. Congratulations on both what you have done & that it now runs. Global warming as a consequence of burning fossil fuel is undeniable as far as I am concerned. I am amazed by the prevalence of naysayers in the US. There are three fascinating projects on this board. Toro's supercharger, Redmarque's Hossack front end & trellis frame and this one. I salute the three of you. I have pondered why we can't have a domestic photovoltaic water splitter to generate our own hydrogen to fuel our cooking/heating and hydrogen fuel-celled vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest skeezmour Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Huge congradulations to all involved in this project. I'm chomping at the bit to build my own EV. Loni and I had some chats last year at the VRF event down there in Vancover. Will be awesome to get more of these going. Keep it up and let us know what you learn from it. (What is the weight of your current pack and the 144v one your looking at?) Gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted June 21, 2008 Share Posted June 21, 2008 Congratulations on such a great result! Looking forward to reading about further refinement of the project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frodus Posted June 23, 2008 Author Share Posted June 23, 2008 (What is the weight of your current pack and the 144v one your looking at?)Gene the 144V pack and the current pack are the same. I just broke it in half, and put the 2 72V packs in parallel. weight is 160lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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