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Tips & Tricks To Help Your Charging System

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Still didn't answer the question, 3vac where? Idle? 5k rpm? somewhere else? If you had a rough idle, it may be that low on its own at idle.
I see. the values are as below. Will update the reading of the last value later.

Battery voltage with bike off = [12.6v]

Voltage with bike at idle = [12.6v]

Voltage with bike at 5k RPM = [12.5V]

AC voltage from stator at idle (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [2-3 vac]

AC voltage from stator at 5k RPM (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [pending]

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Latest readings are as below. All done without headlights on.

Readings with the R/R disconnected:

Battery voltage with bike off = [12.6v]

Voltage with bike at idle = [12.42v]

Voltage with bike at 5k RPM = [11.30V]

AC voltage from stator at idle (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [2-3 vac]

AC voltage from stator at 5k RPM (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [3-4 vac]

Readings with the R/R connected:

Battery voltage with bike off = [12.6 V]

Voltage with bike at idle = [12.42 V]

Voltage with bike at 5k RPM = [12.39 V]

Voltage at R/R output at idle = 12.18 V

Voltage at R/R output at 5k rpm = 12.10 V

AC voltage from stator at idle (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [2-3 VAC]

AC voltage from stator at 5k RPM (all 3 legs checked across themselves) = [3-4 VAC]

Well, it seems my stator is the one causing all the trouble. Is there any possible causes? Will loose wiring cause such a discrepancy?

And more bad news...my local dealer do not have stock of the stator! sad.gif

Anybody used the Electrosport ones, are they any good? - http://www.electrosport.com/electrosport_e...cal_honda1.html

Or are there compatible alternatives (other Honda models? Yamaha? Suzukis?)?

Edited by snowparang

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Horror stories from electro sport products. Try Ricks products,

http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/

then read this thread to see his work.

Rick's stator

The good thing about rick's is he is cheeper than OEM, and offers a 1 yr warranty. He also uses higher quality wire that is more resistant to heat and stress that a MC engine provides.

I can't speek for sure, but I doubt that there will be a compatiable stator.

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Horror stories from electro sport products. Try Ricks products,

http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/

then read this thread to see his work.

Rick's stator

The good thing about rick's is he is cheeper than OEM, and offers a 1 yr warranty. He also uses higher quality wire that is more resistant to heat and stress that a MC engine provides.

I can't speek for sure, but I doubt that there will be a compatiable stator.

Thanks for the info again! I've email Ricks. A slight problem will be that I'm in Singapore, so I have to ship my burnt stator to him for rewiring. And then get it shipped back. Hopefully Rick carries OEM replacement for stators too.

Well,, my VFR is my only form of transport..except for the Aprilia RS250 which is in project state. Was hoping to ge it fixed within a week...but fat hope I guess. Who would guess the parts dealer here has no stock of that item! (90% of motorcycles in Singappore are japan made, and 50% of that are Hondas.)

Anybody has a spare working stator let me know!

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if you run a new wire from black monitor wire to the battery, you have to, have to, have to disconnect the black wire to white/black wire from eachother in the harness. If you don't when you turn the key off, the bike will keep running because it wills end a reverse 12v feed to the ignition switch, tricking it to thinking the key is still on.

Well, I finally got around to rewiring the lead to the R/R from the 12V source to monitor the system voltage. Initial reports look fantastic. I have been idling around 15.2-15.6 pretty consistantly and I just started her up and she idles at 13.9 and when I rev her she stays solid as a rock right there at 13.9. I will have to go out and flog run her on the open road to see if my initial impressions are correct, but I think I may have one of the best electrical systems for a first generation VF on the road...... now that I sayh that, I'm sure she'll explode if I ever fall below 88 mph.

Yes, officer, have you ever seen Speed? I like Back to the Future more. :goofy:

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Who am I to question Mother Honda but I am going too.

Trying to fix some electrical problems with my handy service manual for 2003 to 2004 vfr's.

I am looking at the wiring diagram from the 02 to 03 abs and taking voltage reading and things are not right. Here is the thing. the white/ black wire that comes from the R/R has a different voltage on it then the red/white wires even though the wiring diagram show the they are at the same point or potential as far as voltage goes. When the key is turned off there is no voltage on the white/black but there is still full voltage on the red/white. These 3 wires can not be tied together as show in the diagram.

After more readings I have come to the ideal that the wiring diagram IS wrong. :o When I look at the diagram for after 03 models it shows the white/ black wire from the R/R the right way.

Now if someone can prove me wrong on this I would be happy to listen. I am looking forward to my talk with Honda Canada.

Here is a trace of the '02 NON ABS full size schematic. I don't know where to find the ABS - it's not in my electronic copy of the service manual (but they left a page for it).

2002vfrwiretracesx6.png

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I added fuse holders to the direct-charge wires that go to the positive cable. What is a "safe" fuse size for the output going through each wire?

I just put 30amp fuses in them since thats what the factory harness has in it. The biggest change in voltage from what I've seen on my bike and others is when replacing that 'black' voltage monitor wire from the R/R. Theres a major major progressive resistance problem in that wire somewhere. Someday I want to take the front end off and track that wire down to see exactly whats the problem in the wire from the ignition to the R/R. Mine has a major issue with about 9.3 ohms of resistance from the monitor wire to ignition, which was upping voltage output to 16V +. Since replacing that wire, I can remove the fuses from positive side running to the regulator to the battery to test it and it only causes a 0.6v voltage drop. So basically by rerunning that black wire to my battery allowing correct voltage monitoring, solve a lot of overcharging issues in that alone.

I seem to have somehow missed this thread for the last 2 months.

Jason, regarding the monitor wire, the schematic in the service manual is BS, take a look at the wire harness than Ken was nice enough to cut apart for me to see where the monitor wire goes... Farking nowhere.

IMG_4541.jpg

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gallery_11167_3051_26002.jpg

Harness side of RR Connector Block

I don't know what is going on with Ken's old harness but I decided to checked out the RR input to the harness on my '02 (with a mulitimeter).

I checked the continuity and resistance of my harness from the RR back to the battery. I also wanted to know where the White/Black wire went - did Honda crimp it onto the red wire 8 inches away?

When you pull the RR plug to the harness apart, the picture you see above is the part that feed into the harness. Reference that and what you read below and you'll get it (I hope). This is what I found...

(Note: to be accurate the red wires are actually red with white stripe)

Battery Disconnected:

Green to Green = Continuity (0.2 ohms)

Red to Red = Continuity (0.2 ohms)

Reds to Pos Battery Lead = Continuity (0.3 ohms)

Greens to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (0.2 ohms)

White/Black to Red = No Continuity <--- Kills the "Ken's harness" on my '02 theory

White/Black to Green = Continuity (1.0 ohm) <--- WTF?

White/Black to Pos Batt Lead = No Continuity

White/Black to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (0.8 ohms)

Battery Connected - Key OFF:

Green to Green = Continuity (0.3 ohms)

Red to Red = Continuity (0.3 ohms)

Reds to Pos Battery Lead = Continuity (0.3 ohms)

Greens to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (0.2 ohms)

White/Black to Red = No Continuity

White/Black to Green = Continuity (0.9 ohms)

White/Black to Pos Batt Lead = Continuity (-153.2 or infinity if leads are switched) <-- Like a diode?

White/Black to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (0.8 ohms)

Battery Connected - Key ON (bike not running):

Green to Green = Continuity (39.6 ohms) <--- WTF? Grounding issue with power on?

Red to Red = Continuity (0.3 ohms)

Reds to Pos Battery Lead = Continuity (4.3 ohms)

Greens to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (one shows 18.3 ohms the other 59.3 ohms) <---this is Odd but answers the above 39.6 ohms resistance

White/Black to Red = Continuity (-53.0 at 200K and if I reverse the electrodes and I get infinity)

White/Black to Green = No Continuity

White/Black to Pos Batt Lead = No Continuity

White/Black to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (-153.2 or infinity if leads are switched) <---Diode?

Conclusions:

1. I have good lines to the battery (there is continuity and little resistance at least with the key off anyway);

2. I have a good ground (again, at least until I turn the key on)

3. There is no way my Regulator/Rectifier Black/White monitor wire is DIRECTLY connected to the Red wire 8 inches away (aka Ken's setup). Mine is going through something - probably the ignition and start switch as per the wiring diagram.

4. I even checked the diode as per the service manual (page 19-18) and it checks out OK. AND if you ever want to get into your forward fuses under the left (ABS stuff) and right (lights etc) meter panels you DO NOT have to remove the upper cowl as the service manual says. Thankfully ScottyDo has some pics on how to take the left or right meter panel off - as well a very cool blue light mod. It's the little things like removing these panels for the first time that drives me nuts.

Surprises:

1. That the White/Black to Green ground (and Negative Battery terminal) showed continuity and very little resistance with the key off - I need to look closer at the wiring diagram.

2. That resistance goes up on grounds with key ON - There is something going on here I think. I don't know why a ground would be fine with no power applied but show resistance with power on. Any thoughts?

I have also been looking at the RR upgrade wiring job some people are doing. Chris had mentioned that you would want to reduce the fuse size if you bring all the wires back to the battery. I agree. All you have to do is imagine a short on one of the three wires. All other wires will begin to "feed it" until the amperage begins to blow fuses. I'm no electrical engineer but to me, if you have three 30 amp fuses each on their own wire, you might as well have one 90 amp fuse on one wire.

I also think that there has to be a "cleaner" way to set this up so that there are not so many fuses piled up back at the battery.

gallery_11167_3051_28948.jpg

Stock RR and Suggested Rewired RR

PS - I never put in Chiris' extra ground mods - but at the moment I think they are a good idea.

Here is the wiring diagram of what I did. You won't have the Kriss Amp-U-Tron in line, but you can mearly cut the main feed to the battery and splice in an extra wire to boost charge to the battery.

gallery_4338_1246_52340.jpg

Wiring Upgrade New + Wires in Red, New - Wires in Green. All wires used are 12ga high strand.

Keep in mind that when you have the extra wire coming directly from the RR to the battery, and you add a second 30a fuse, you then have on the bike side of the battery, 60a of potential. To prevent this you may want to change the 30a fuses for 15a or 20a fuses so as not to have such a huge potential in case of a dead short.

Edited by talus

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So, I am confused. Assuming that the monitor wire is not attached to the red wire out of the R/R but goes up to the ignition etc, then is it still correct to do the mod by interrupting the old thru-harness-to-ignition-to-RR circuit and replace it by attaching a wire from the positive battery side to the back/white monitor wire.

If the old circuit was going up to the ignition and so on, there is certainly the potential of some voltage drop and have a false reading at the RR. I am just trying to understand Honda's logic: Why would a monitor wire need to be anywhere except to the positive battery post?

Is it suggesting that this wire is not an 'input wire to the RR but rather an output wire to feed the ignition circuit. If so, then this is why I am confused and I can't really proceed with clipping the monitor wire. Is it to detect ignit AND to measure its voltage if it has any?

(yes, I find wiring 3-way circuits difficult in older houses)

Edit - after thinking about it, I concluded that the black/white wire in the RR must be an input to the RR as KKKen's was monitoring the voltage in the red/white wire and the RR part numbers haven't changed from the 02 model to the 03 model year. But as seems to tbe the case, the monitor wire seems to have a different attach point from KKKen's to Talus's version. However the part number hasen't changed, so the wire's purpose into the RR shouldn't be different, should it?

/Edit

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Edit - after thinking about it, I concluded that the black/white wire in the RR must be an input to the RR as KKKen's was monitoring the voltage in the red/white wire and the RR part numbers haven't changed from the 02 model to the 03 model year. But as seems to tbe the case, the monitor wire seems to have a different attach point from KKKen's to Talus's version. However the part number hasen't changed, so the wire's purpose into the RR shouldn't be different, should it?

/Edit

I would be curious to know where your black/white wire goes. With a multimeter it's a fairly quick check. Just unplug the RR from the harness and check the continuity between the red/white wires and the black/white wire.

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Edit - after thinking about it, I concluded that the black/white wire in the RR must be an input to the RR as KKKen's was monitoring the voltage in the red/white wire and the RR part numbers haven't changed from the 02 model to the 03 model year. But as seems to tbe the case, the monitor wire seems to have a different attach point from KKKen's to Talus's version. However the part number hasen't changed, so the wire's purpose into the RR shouldn't be different, should it?

/Edit

I would be curious to know where your black/white wire goes. With a multimeter it's a fairly quick check. Just unplug the RR from the harness and check the continuity between the red/white wires and the black/white wire.

Been a hectic day, but I just got finished the multimeter test and I DO have continuity between the monitor wire and the red/white wires. This, I assume suggests that I have the monitor wire crimped onto the red wire in the harness similar to KKKen's 02 harness. This means that I can positively go and put a fused lead from the battery '+' post to the monitor wire.

I will report back after I do that, but it will likely be Monday. One of the things that is slowing me down is the fact that I will have to replace the 30 amp fuse/holder AGAIN. I had used 12-gauge inline fuses as a replacement. None of the electrical shops around here seem to carry any 10 or 8 gauge 30-amp inline fuses. I went for a short hop today and my rad fan was on enough to cause the RR problem to keep producing more and more juice. My fuse and holder were deformed due to the heat. Why did it not blow instead of melting itself to death.

Hopefully, the replacing of the fuse and the monitor wire mod and the t-stat change will correct this problem, once and for all.

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Thanks for checking that Bob, I really appreciate that.

I would say that you have the same setup as KKKen and it appears different than mine. That makes a difference when we are all troubleshooting. I would have thought that a 12 gauge fuse holder would have done it. A very quick look here http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm shows the ability to carry 41 Amps in that 12 gauge wire (not in a bundle), another shows 60 amps .... http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/WireCapacityChart.htm

I'm still no further along with my hot Stator wire issues (new battery now in) and have ordered a new RR in the mean time.

I'm very curious about the increased resistance in my ground wires - BUT only when the key is on!?

My white/black wire issues also have me worried about some sort of harness issue but I think that a diode gone astray would be a more likely problem. I checked the diode in the right hand fuse box but I'm going to check it again. I'm not sure what that one is for either.

If you get a chance could you meter the following paths on the harness side of your RR with the plug pulled apart i.e. RR disconnected (my results follow the "=" sign and picture in the above post should clarify things for you).

Battery Disconnected:

White/Black to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (0.8 ohms)

Battery Connected - Key OFF:

White/Black to Green = Continuity (0.9 ohms)

White/Black to Pos Batt Lead = Continuity (-153.2 or infinity if leads are switched) <-- Like a diode?

White/Black to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (0.8 ohms)

Battery Connected - Key ON (bike not running):

Green to Green = Continuity (39.6 ohms) <--- WTF? Grounding issue with power on?

Red to Red = Continuity (0.3 ohms)

Reds to Pos Battery Lead = Continuity (4.3 ohms)

Greens to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (one shows 18.3 ohms the other 59.3 ohms) <---this is Odd but answers the above 39.6 ohms resistance

White/Black to Red = Continuity (-53.0 at 200K and if I reverse the electrodes and I get infinity)

White/Black to Green = No Continuity

White/Black to Pos Batt Lead = No Continuity

White/Black to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (-153.2 or infinity if leads are switched) <---Diode?

Edited by talus

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My info will be in bold

Battery Disconnected:

White/Black to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (0.8 ohms) - mine - no continuity to neg post but yes when using frame

Battery Connected - Key OFF:

White/Black to Green = Continuity (0.9 ohms) - mine - 2 ohms

White/Black to Pos Batt Lead = Continuity (-153.2 or infinity if leads are switched) <-- Like a diode? - mine - minus 279 and infinity

White/Black to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (0.8 ohms) - mine - 2 ohms

Battery Connected - Key ON (bike not running):

Green to Green = Continuity (39.6 ohms) <--- WTF? Grounding issue with power on? - mine - 25 ohms

Red to Red = Continuity (0.3 ohms)

Reds to Pos Battery Lead = Continuity (4.3 ohms) - mine - 4 ohms

Greens to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (one shows 18.3 ohms the other 59.3 ohms) <---this is Odd but answers the above 39.6 ohms resistance - mine - minus 174 and infinity for the other one

White/Black to Red = Continuity (-53.0 at 200K and if I reverse the electrodes and I get infinity) - mine - I get -240 and infinity for the other one

White/Black to Green = No Continuity - mine - I had continuity here, I think, but I can no longer repeat test

White/Black to Pos Batt Lead = No Continuity - mine - same

White/Black to Neg Batt Lead = Continuity (-153.2 or infinity if leads are switched) <---Diode? - mine - minus 270 & infinity

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Before I disassembled or snipped anything, I turned on the engine and of course, I could feel the fuse holder starting to warm up immediately. I tried to measure voltage between the black/white wire and the positive terminal and I was getting a reading of about .75 volt and when I put the high beams on, the voltage went up to approximately 1.25. I don't know if that number is any way significant, but I took it any.

After I change the fuse & holder/wire and put in the positive terminal/black white monitor wire connection, I sure hope life will return to normal. I am going to do the green wire/blue connector correction too.

At some point on monday or tuesday, I will be going thru as many stator checks as I canntoo.

I hate electrical crap

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I hate electrical crap

So do I.

Thank you for the testing Bob. I would say that our numbers pretty much agree - except that on my machine there is no way that the Black/White wire makes direct contact with the Red/White RR wires. Unless there is some freak of fate - our bike have the same harness setup (or failure - but I doubt that).

I still can't tell you for sure what that White/Black (W/Bl) wire is "monitoring". According to the wiring diagram the W/Bl circuit starts at the Fuse Box and goes to the Regulator/Rectifier, the Engine Stop switch and the Bank Angle Sensor. From the Engine Stop switch in the "Run" position it comes out as a Black (B) wire to the Engine Stop Relay. Finally, it comes from the Engine Stop Relay in the Red/Orange (R/O) wire to the Bank Angle sensor. Either way it looks to me like it then goes to Green (G) Ground.

// -- Edit -- you know, that might explain why there is continuity to ground from the W/Bl with the key OFF.

Now when the key is ON the W/Bl wire is powered up through Fuse C (10A Starter/Bank Angle Sensor) and Engine Stop Relay is powered.

// -- Edit -- In this case, when the key is ON the Engine Stop relay will be activated and the W/Bl wire will then monitor battery voltage. Now why would Honda choose here to monitor the battery?

I repeated all the diagnostic tests from the Honda Service Manual just to be sure. Everything I can check looks fine - the last step in the process is to replace the RR, so I ordered a new Honda OEM one. I don't like doing the RE-and-RE without definitively diagnosing the problem, however, I now have the wiring diagram enlarged and printed - 4 feet by 2 feet ought to be big enough!!

For the record, in diagnosing the fried stator / alternator connector and warm / hot stator wires - so far I have:

  • Done all the tests from the Honda Service Manual (page 17-4);
  • Done all the tests from the Electrosport flow chart (http://www.electrosport.com/Images/fault_finding.pdf);
  • Metered out all connections that the RR makes with the harness - in an attempt to educate myself;
  • Separated, inspected, cleaned, and di-electric greased all accessible connectors and fuses boxes on both sides including the notorious blue connector on the left side (I did not pull apart the more solid sealed connectors - they were to difficult to separate); and
  • Replaced the battery on speculation and re-tested (same results).

Both the Honda Service Manual and the Electrosport chart point to the regulator being the problem Tuesday will tell.

I am tempted to run direct wiring from the RR Red/Whites back to the battery and Greens to solid grounds but I am going to wait until the new RR is in. I want to see if the RR is the fix. Then I'll beef everything up.

Edited by talus

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Here is the Engine Stop Relay.

The Red/Orange wire comes from the Bank Angle Sensor. The Black wire comes from the B/W wire of the RR.

gallery_11167_3051_86181.png

Engine Stop Relay page 5-83 HSM

Edited by talus

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Talus: My RR is less than 3 riding hours old and it fried the 30 amp fuse. It was hot to the touch at what I thought was the tail end of my last RR but the new one just continued to bake the fuse. It was probably even moreso due to the fact that my fan was on at least half of the time since the new RR change. Hopefully, I will get the new fuse and black wire mod done today sometime, and have some new observations (improved of course).

I will be keeping the old RR, as I think it may have some life left in it. One thing that I have to do is find >10 gauge wire and 30 amp battery combo somewhere. One of the auto store clerks said that I may have to go to a truck electrical supply store to find that.

EDIT: I studied the electrical layout a bit and now I am again confused (doesn't take much these years). Is what you are suggesting is that the black wire from the rr just monitoring for some/any voltage from the engine off relay and not actually be monitoring the actual voltage of the rr output? /EDIT

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I've been going over the charts some more and I found a better diagram to explain things with (the previous diagram confused things - sorry). Here is an edited diagram of how the factory '02 White / Black sensing wire hooks up.

NOTE: The Main Fuse "B" on the red wire is the 30 Amp one that gets toasty. The short section of wire that needs replacing is just before the 30 Amp fuse (not depicted).

gallery_11167_3051_25140.png

System Diagram 19-2

You can see where the White/Black sensing wire picks up it's battery voltage reading - just after the 10 amp fuse (this proves out on the actual wiring diagram).

If you look closely at the actual wiring diagram in the manual (p21-3), starting at the 10 amp fuse "C" and tracing the White/Black wire you'll see that it branches in three directions:

  • to the Regulator / Rectifier;
  • to the Engine Stop switch;and
  • to the Bank Angle Sensor and eventually the Engine Stop relay (not shown in the simplified diagram above)

I agree with everyone else that reinforcing the wiring from the RR to the battery should improve the charging system.

By making a direct connection between the RR monitor wire (the black one on your RR) and the battery, you will not hurt anything as long it is a new circuit. You can see from the above diagram that if you were to simply branch off from the White/Black RR wire and go direct to the battery positive post you would create a path around the ignition switch and the bike would not shut off when you turned off the key (as someone had said before). It is fairly simple to take a small jewelers screwdriver and release the catch on the Black wire and remove the male end from the RR "6P" connector (the one that has the 2 reds, 2 greens and 1 black going into it from the RR). Be sure to use fuse in this new circuit as well - 10 amp should do.

The use of new power supply wires (reds) from the RR to the battery should also improve things as well by reducing the load on the small wiring going to the 30 amp main "B" fuse (the one that gets toasty). And, of course a couple of new grounds wouldn't hurt either.

Bob: Why not use a couple of 10 or 12 gauge wires instead of one large wire?

Edited by talus

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I just returned from talking with a lead mechanic and we went over the wiring diagram and the proposed solutions and he completely agrees with the black monitor wire needing to go to the battery. As per tracing the route, he indicated that depending on something as simple as the connection type, small amounts of resistance (ie producing a voltyage drop) could occur along the path before the RR would be reading it. He also agrees with the double fused circuit from the RR red wires to the battery.

He recommended doing the changes one at a time and measure the voltages and amps before and after a change and monitor the result. I couldn't agree more.

So, to get things going, later today, I will put in a new 12 gauge, single 30 amp gauge circuit to get bike startable and testable again. I will then do the fused black/white monitor wire to the positive battery pole and snip the old monitor circuit and run that way for several days and monitor etc.

Then I am planning on:

- Each RR red wire to battery

- Enhance RR green ground to new frame ground.

- Blue connector green ground wire mod to new frame ground

- Dilectric grease everything

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So, to get things going, later today, I will put in a new 12 gauge, single 30 amp gauge circuit to get bike startable and testable again. I will then do the fused black/white monitor wire to the positive battery pole and snip the old monitor circuit and run that way for several days and monitor etc.

Then I am planning on:

- Each RR red wire to battery

- Enhance RR green ground to new frame ground.

- Blue connector green ground wire mod to new frame ground

- Dilectric grease everything

That all sounds great. If you want to make the monitor wire change reversible, you can get away with removing the black/white male connector from the 6P block. Just use a small jewelers screwdriver to release the connector then crimp (and solder if you wish) a female connector onto your new monitor wire run. Simple plug and play and fully reversible. Of course the new power and ground runs won't be.

PS - my new regulator install did nothing to fix the insanely crazy hot stator wire connection. I tried every other mod as well - new monitor wire run (making a perfect 14.3 V at the battery), new red power wires, new green ground wires. Combinations of all of the above. CRAP. New stator here we come.

Edited by talus

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Hooray!!

Before the black monitoring wire mod - 15.23 V cruising and 15.6 with brights on

After the black monitoring wire mod - 14.3 V and no change with brights

I will run this way for several days to ensure my fan comes on and causes no problems and then get to the grease and ground mods.

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The black wire does not have to be switched, but you do have to remove it from the harness and break the connection from the factory harness. If you don't pull the somehow break the connection from the factory harness ( either cut the wire or pull it out of the white r/r connector ) it will send 12v backwards into your ignition allowing the bike to stay running even if you turn the key off.
Hmm...Just a thought. If I send a 12V supply from this black lead I could not shut down the bike but can I start the bike? Can I use this method if I somehow lost my keys? Will this bypass the HISS security?

Secondly, if I connect the black sensing wire from the R/R to the battery positive, isn't that as good as connecting it to the R/R red output? Since both of these all ended up at the battery positive.

original.jpg

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14.6v volts is a bit too much... would using a thinner gauge wire produce less dratic results?

I'm pretty sure that you need to do the black wire replacement part of this mod to get the voltage where it should be. I went from 15.2-16.0 to 13.5-14.0 with the voltage mod.

P.S. to the older generation riders, this entire thread completely applies to you. :thumbsup:

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I'm not electrician by trade, but back in the day when I was a electronic technician, I do remember that "given a constant voltage and current load over a specific length of wire of a specific gauge", then there will always be a specified amount of "voltage drop". If your intent is to reduce this drop in voltage in this span of wire, then you must either shorten the span or increase the gauge of wire. Increasing the gauge of the wire also increases how much current the span can safely handle, as well as total wattage.

BINGO - what I did basically does both.

Shortens the length and increases the gauge of wire used (yes, multiple small gauge = large gauge)

I think the main problem is the initial length ran in the OEM wiring prior to reaching the battery & fuse block.

???????????? --------> DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE THE OEM ENGINE GROUND CONNECTS?

I would like to tackle that next.

Zam, I really appreciate your expertise and you sharing it. I have resisted making any of the modifications previously suggested here because, while I was convinced the oem wiring was to small, I am averse to hacking the oem wiring as I am unsure I could produce nice clean connections with larger gauge wire that would be an improvement. Your idea of simply doubling the wires with button hooks seems fool proof except for one thing.

There is one concern that I have from intuition, not any electrical knowledge that I have (which is limited to a vague understanding of ohms law). That concern is: it seems to me that piggy backing a second run of wire to the orginal, while effectivley doubling the gauge for the most part, would create a "bottle-neck" at both buttonhook joints. Does the current coming through the two wires cause overheating where the wires join into one, or is my "bottle-neck" intuition just wrong?

Thanks again!

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There is one concern that I have from intuition, not any electrical knowledge that I have (which is limited to a vague understanding of ohms law). That concern is: it seems to me that piggy backing a second run of wire to the orginal, while effectivley doubling the gauge for the most part, would create a "bottle-neck" at both buttonhook joints. Does the current coming through the two wires cause overheating where the wires join into one, or is my "bottle-neck" intuition just wrong?

Thanks again!

Good question. While waiting for Zam to respond, I'll say I suspect he'll say the main cable that the R/R wires tie into is plenty big enough to prevent backup. My own buttonhooking job has not melted down and still consistently puts out 14.06v at 5k, and up to 14.25 when rpm below that. I added inputs and grounds until the voltage wouldn't go any higher, so I'm satisfied I've overcome the small wires and am getting all the R/R has to offer (it was in the high 13v region before the rewire).

My lay understanding of why the R/R got hot was because juice was backing up into the R/R due to the too small OEM wiring, and that the wiring free-up allowing more juice to the battery should let the R/R run cooler, but that hasn't occurred. The R/R still gets too hot to touch.

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14.6v volts is a bit too much... would using a thinner gauge wire produce less dratic results?

I'm pretty sure that you need to do the black wire replacement part of this mod to get the voltage where it should be. I went from 15.2-16.0 to 13.5-14.0 with the voltage mod.

P.S. to the older generation riders, this entire thread completely applies to you. :thumbsup:

I have not been following this thread closely because I thought it involves a 5th "voltage sensing wire"

that is found on the 6th gen R/R connctor only, am I wrong?

Yes you are wrong. AFAIK Honda has not changed the layout of the wiring on the R/R since 85. My 30 amp fuse showed some heat damage and I was running at over voltage. After doing the mods listed out in this thread, I have doubled the strength of the 30 amp fuse wire and brought my voltage back down to safe levels.

I have no knowledge of 6th gen VFRs but I was going from this post: "Honda Went and added that black wire to the 6th gen fron the 5th which used the pos output leads as the sensing circuit since that cisruit could become hot and give a false reading."

The thread has gotten too cumbersome to trace but I know it started out as un undercharge problem fix for a fifth gen but in the end the problem is overcharge. Is that because the rewire fix for the 5th gen needs modification for 6th gen models or is it two different issues? I certainly don't have an overcharging problem so I do not understand why you say the entire thread applies to older gen riders.

Yes, it started out as an undercharging fix. The 30 amp fuse circuit, including ground, is not beefy enough to handle the task. This is why many people experiance 30 amp fuse heat damage (mine was pretty minor). Somewhere in the midst of all this commotion it was found that a lot of people's charging systems are running the battery at too high a voltage due to resistance in the monitor wire (the resistance lowers the voltage that makes it back to the R/R and the R/R ups the output to compensate). The end result with both of these problems, is a 30 amp fuse that is experiancing over than rated voltage, and more amperage is going through the system than the origional design can handle.

I did each mod one at a time, but feel like both absolutely need to be done on most of these bikes (especially with a some years on them).

I also absolutely cound not imagine riding my bike without the voltage gage right there on the dash. Those, and grip heaters, should be on every motorcycle. :thumbsup:

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