Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted October 30, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2005 http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/uploads/1130622839/gallery_4545_662_462991.jpg[/img] I wanted to post this under ?Adventures with my VFR? but that is limited to ride reports. It could possibly go in maintenance 'How to Guides' but really it is intended to show what NOT to do and I hope no one else has to do this. I have made my contribution to the statistic of lapsed riders who return to motorcycling and quickly throw the thing down the road. It was a low side and the bike came off far better than me ? 3 cracked ribs & broken collar bone. Rashed plastics with frankenbolt holes popped & indicator pushed through to the inside & rashed muffler; would have been much less if I had a frame slider fitted. Radiator and mirror unbroken. border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Crashed & retrieved When I came to sort out the mess I found that the steering was rattlingly loose. I bought a 2001 with 58 000 km on the clock; new steering head bearings had been fitted at 24 000 when the bike was 2 years old. I was very surprised that the steering was so loose as I had not noticed it before the crash although I had done 1200 kms. I came across this link which advocates torquing the head to 50 ? 60 ft. lbs to properly seat the bearings. When I did this I heard 2 sharp cracks almost like bearing balls cracking but thought it was the sticktion as the bearing races settled properly against the seats, just as the article said they would. But things were obviously not right so I had to strip the front end off & see what was going on. When I got the steering stem out I found that the cracking noise was the cast in collar against which the lower bearing seats being broken off. I felt sick, sort of faint. From a relatively mildly damaged bike I had progressed it to being truly hugely damaged. Slept on the problem and decided to weld it up. This is going to be my final bike, I have no intention of selling it; will give it to my son when I am done with it. There is no way that I could sell a bike with a welded steering head to someone else but I am willing to ride it as I am confident in the repairs. I have a tig welder but have never done aluminium tig welding. Next to me at work is a API(?) certified welder who has worked on oil rigs in the Persian Gulf and been an instructor at a local welding school ? I would get Ridwaan to do the welding. I have a cnc machining centre. A machining centre is like a milling machine but they are called machining centres for some reason ? there are horizontal or vertical ones. I have a Haas VF2 vmc made in California. So between the two machines I have and with Ridwaan?s help I should be able to fix this thing. I stripped the frame off the bike; not too difficult as there was not much more that I needed to take off since the fairing was at the spray painter & the front end was out. Just take the tank right off and the tail section and loosen the wiring harness & the frame lifts off the remainder. border='0' alt='user posted image' /> no frame 3.jpg Frame stripped off. Remains resting on sandbag Ridwaan welded it up although it was quite difficult working within the confined space of the steering head. I then put the frame on the table of the Haas and sorted out how I was going to clamp it there while machining it. The vital thing is to machine the repaired lower bearing seat dead in line with the upper bearing seat. I made a steel disk that just fitted inside the upper bearing seat which I bolted to the table of the Haas and centered the spindle on it. Then I fitted the frame upside down onto that disk so the welded part was uppermost. I made another disk that just fitted the undamaged step where the dust seal fits under the lower bearing, this had a long 32mm tail that I fitted into a chuck so that it could slide up and down. I was then able to fit this into the spindle of the Haas and lower it into the steering head with the spindle accurately above the disk bolted to the table so the steering head was exactly where it needed to be. I sorted out how to clamp it in this position. border='0' alt='user posted image' /> tig 1.jpg border='0' alt='user posted image' /> welded 1.jpg Welded I machined away the excess material using a new 4-flute HSS (high speed steel) end mill. It clearly was not cutting well ? you can hear when things are cutting well or poorly. The rods that Ridwaan had used are really tough aluminium. When I had a look ? you can?t see what is going on while cutting as everything is showered in cutting oil ? I saw that this really was not the right tool as the aluminium was smeared and the job had shifted towards the back of the Haas as the clamping was not good enough. I had now overcut on the one side so Ridwaan had to fix that up again. The tool was badly worn. border='0' alt='user posted image' /> machine 1.jpg border='0' alt='user posted image' /> machinig fixture 3.jpg The fixture to secure the steering head front to back in the Haas. The two disks that fit into the steering head for aligning it in the Haas. The tool for tightening the bearing nuts. The tool for driving the lower bearing onto the steering stem. I went to Keith, who supplies me with cutters, and asked for the best cutter for aluminium. He sold me a Korean made YG Alupower tungsten carbide cutter. Normally hss tools have a sharper edge than tc but these tools are specially designed for aluminium by having a different geometry to the cutting edge. To better secure the job front to back in the Haas I machined a slot in a heavy steel plate that just fitted over the lugs at the front of the steering head (onto which the frame for the instruments is bolted). This I welded to a piece of angle iron which I bolted to the table. Now I had the frame properly anchored front to back & side to side. border='0' alt='user posted image' /> cutters.jpg Cutter at back is Alupower. Front cutter is badly worn end mill. Two pieces that broke out of the steering head. When I now machined it you could hear how sweetly the new cutter was working. On a cnc machine you simply specify the center and radius of a circle you want to cut & the tool orbits around the center point. You can cut to bearing tolerances. The OD of the lower bearing is 55mm but I was using a 12mm cutter to machine this. On the control panel of the machine you can set the off-set for the tool from the defined path. For a bearing you leave 0,5mm to start with then use light finishing cuts to the final size. The off-set can be set to 0.001 mm (1 micron, or more correctly 1 micrometer = 0.00004 inches) but the machine resolves to 0.003mm. All of this is swamped by tool deflection which is why you need to do the final light cuts, measuring after each. I machined it to size & tapped the bearing race in. border='0' alt='user posted image' /> bearing in 2.jpg I chose to convert to taperd roller bearings. The lower bearing is a standard #320006 bearing but the upper bearing is non-standard. There is no AllBalls here that I can get the required bearing which has a 26mm bore. The closest is #32005 which has a 25mm bore. I got one of these & ground the bore to 26mm on my Haas. I have a 5x spindle speeder into which I fitted a little mounted point grindstone which I spun at 20 000 rpm (speeder maximum). Taking 0.02 off-set increments I ground it to 26mm. You want to have a lot of cutting oil when grinding as the dust must not get into the slideways of the machine. I am very reluctant to ever grind in my Haas. border='0' alt='user posted image' /> grind bearing 2.jpg Grinding the upper bearing to size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer kaldek Posted October 30, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2005 Damn, that's some impressive work. I wish I'd spent my youth actually working with machine tools because I'm quite nifty with the mechanical stuff, but don't have the background I guess I need to get to this level. Although if I'd gone into a workshop/engineering career I wouldn't have met my lovely wife and have such a great family life. Can't go tugging at those loose strings in the ball of twine that is your life! Kaldek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Tok, I shuddered when you wrote about breaking the frame neck. When I installed my tapered rollers, I seated the races using the standard Honda torque spec of 18 Ft/lbs and turned the triples back and forth several times, torqued again to 18 and repeat. Never went above 18 ft/lbs. I then backed it off to 5 ft/lbs and all is well. I think the page you linked to with the recommendation for 50 ft/lbs to seat the races squarely probably comes from the good old days of steel frames. Good that you were able to fix it though. Most everyone would have to buy a new or used frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted October 30, 2005 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2005 I think the page you linked to with the recommendation for 50 ft/lbs to seat the races squarely probably comes from the good old days of steel frames. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I agree. Pity he did not say so in his write-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trace Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Very nice work, tokkie. I would have fixed it using JB Weld and a half-round file....or I would Blow 'Er Up! :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted October 30, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2005 (edited) http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/uploads/1130622839/gallery_4545_662_462991.jpg[/img]I wanted to post this under ?Adventures with my VFR? but that is limited to ride reports. It could possibly go in maintenance 'How to Guides' but really it is intended to show what NOT to do and I hope no one else has to do this. Grinding the upper bearing to size. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> WOW... I'm impressed... nice job... you brought that frame back from the dead... not only will too much torque do that but also collisions... flip forks are so strong now a days that the weakest part is becoming the frame... I've witness broken bearing seats and elongated bearing holes as a result at the Fameman's shop... I about fell out of my chair at the sight of you grinding a bearing race... mercy man I would never tackle that problem... I think you're about one step away from machining your own steering stem and triple trees... BTW... did you weight the frame??? Edited October 30, 2005 by BusyLittleShop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Nice Job ! I had the same problem on a crashed 5th gen. VFR a few years ago, the front end impact popped/broke out this same lower bearing seat. I thought I was screwed, but I thought about it for a while and decided to have my local machine shop just build an insert. They over bored the frame with a step and made a sleeve insert that was pressed into the new larger hole that had a much stouter seat . Worked like a charm ! :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 I thought about it for a while and decided to have my local machine shop just build an insert. They over bored the frame with a step and made a sleeve insert that was pressed into the new larger hole that had a much stouter seat . Now there's an Idear! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Avid One Posted October 30, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted October 30, 2005 Wow! Amazing work. Sorry to hear about the lowside. Cracked ribs are really painful. Hope you heal up quickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue Posted October 30, 2005 Share Posted October 30, 2005 Nice job. I work a Haas VF-6 amongst other CNC mills. I've never had to do any repair work to a frame, but I would certainly have gone with a carbide cutter from the start. I have however had experience of a VFR frame which had to be replaced due to incorrectly machined upper bearing seats. It's commonplace here to convert to taper bearings, and we have no problems getting standard sets to fit. Rod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Stinkbait Posted October 31, 2005 Share Posted October 31, 2005 or I would Blow 'Er Up! :thumbsup: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yeah! You should of Blown It Up instead of investing all that time. :goofy: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer johnmark101 Posted October 31, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2005 Impressive work.........well done! :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer SAFE-T Posted October 31, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2005 Neat. I would have just got another frame, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted October 31, 2005 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2005 BTW... did you weight the frame??? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> 7.6 kg with lower inner race fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted October 31, 2005 Author Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2005 Nice Job ! I had the same problem on a crashed 5th gen. VFR a few years ago, the front end impact popped/boke out this same lower bearing seat. I thought I was screwed, but I thought about it for a while and decided to have my local machine shop just build an insert. They over bored the frame with a step and made a sleeve insert that was pressed into the new larger hole that had a much stouter seat . Worked like a charm ! :beer: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That is a better solution in my opinion. I have picked up so many ideas from this site. What I have learned is that I should have asked for advice and opinion here before doing anything. Sure, the opinions would have varied from 'get a new frame' to 'blow it up' but I would have chosen your method if I had asked the question & got the reply. This is a fantastic site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BusyLittleShop Posted October 31, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2005 That is a better solution in my opinion. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well with all do respect to Bailey... it's not a better solution in my opinion... subtracting metal from the critical casting where the bearing race plugs into weakens the design... not to mention the insert has to made thin and thin metal will not hold up to hammering and sooner or later the bearing race may work loose... also there's is a liability question when you sell a bike and don't informed the owner that the frame is not 100%... Welding and machining the hole to Honda's original dimensions is by far the safest and best fix... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer dr.toto Posted October 31, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2005 The part I like most is this guy has a HAAS and I don't! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer rollme Posted October 31, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted October 31, 2005 How many hours did this take? tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted November 1, 2005 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 1, 2005 How many hours did this take?tom <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Two days I suppose for the welding & machining - remember I had to make a jig half way through the job & weld some more. I am in no hurry about this, just take it cool. I am doing a complete service of the bike to get it to a known starting point. When I opened the forks the oil was so filthy that I decided I had better check everything out. Plus I am also customising it to a degree - Frankenviffer fever has another victim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veefer800Canuck Posted November 1, 2005 Share Posted November 1, 2005 Plus I am also customising it to a degree - Frankenviffer fever has another victim. AHA! The sickness begins! To help with the symptoms, we need you to start a new thread in the "Modifications, Check THIS out" forum. Immediately. Detail all of the mods you want to do and we will help you spend more money and time on them with all of our suggestions. Remember, we're only here to help. Think of us as your VFR 12-step addiction program! :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer dude Posted November 2, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted November 2, 2005 :beer: :thumbsup: AHA! The sickness begins!To help with the symptoms, we need you to start a new thread in the "Modifications, Check THIS out" forum. Immediately. Detail all of the mods you want to do and we will help you spend more money and time on them with all of our suggestions. Remember, we're only here to help. Think of us as your VFR 12-step addiction program! :goofy: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JonnyBoy Posted November 10, 2005 Member Contributer Share Posted November 10, 2005 Nice mill! Good job on the fixture, looks pretty rigid. Just out of curiosity, did you consider machining the original race bore to an oversize, and then pressing a collar into that? I'm just concerned that the TIG may have over stressed or increased the hardness of that part of the frame... None the less, it looks like it got the job done and you did it right :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer tok tokkie Posted November 11, 2005 Author Member Contributer Share Posted November 11, 2005 Nice mill! Good job on the fixture, looks pretty rigid.Just out of curiosity, did you consider machining the original race bore to an oversize, and then pressing a collar into that? I'm just concerned that the TIG may have over stressed or increased the hardness of that part of the frame... None the less, it looks like it got the job done and you did it right :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It did not occur to me. It was suggested in one of the replys & I said I thought that would have been better. BLS said negative as that removes parent metal. If I did it again Ii would consider that option very seriously - take a good look at how much parent material would remain. The problem with the weld is getting right in there wheras with a thimble you know precisely what you are going to end up with. I will always have an element of doubt about the weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VFR666 Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 border='0' alt='user posted image' /> Second trip to the Blue Ridge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MikeD97 Posted August 20, 2010 Share Posted August 20, 2010 Great post about repairing the steering stem / lower bearing holder. I wrecked my 99 VFR and have similar damage to the lower steering head bearing space on the frame. I'm in the process of stripping the frame to get it repaired. However, I think I'm going about the hard way. I'm following the procedures to remove the engine completely, which includes removing the throttle body, exhaust, swingarm and radiators. Then I saw your picture with the nearly intact bike just missing the frame. So far I have the front end, fuel tank, airbox, and throttle bodies removed. Would be nice to not take the exhaust, swingarm, and radiators off. How did you do that? Anybody else have tips on removing the frame without taking everything apart? Other tips on lower steering head bearing repair? I found a guy near Knoxville, TN via a google search: http://www.framestraightsystem.com/Motorcycle%20Frame%20Repair.htm I live in Northern Virginia. Know of other good frame repair places? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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