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6th Generation VFR Battery---Lithium Ion feedback?


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Apologies if this is a duplicate post.  I did a search and could only find the topic referenced for the Gen 8.

 

I bought my 2005 new (in 07) and I'm now about to buy my third battery for the bike.  I'll complain a bit about longevity (I have a lot of bikes so I'm always buying a battery every year for something!) but I realize they only last 6 years plus or minus.

 

I'm interested in these new fangled lithium ion batteries.  They're supposed to last longer (maybe 9 or 10 years?) but apparently they're quite a bit lighter.  I find the VFR a heavy bike anyways but, as luck would have it, I accidentally found out my racebike battery fits in the VFR (it powered the VFR all of 2020 when the VFR battery gave up the ghost) so I'm also interested in the lighter weight.

 

Any experience with these new batteries in the Gen 6? 

 

Thanks in advance.

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had mine ( SSB ) in for 5+ years and all is well.

 

Some li batteries need special chargers if the bike is down for winter/long periods.Once fully charged they hold the full charge for longer than lead/acid bs.

 

In winter I usually turn the bike on and let it stand for approx 30 seconds b4 starting. The theory behind this is that it takes less cranks to turn over. 

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My last Yuasa battery lasted 10-yrs! If you're killing batteries that quickly, you need to find out why. 

 

1.  measure batter-voltage with bike off

2. measure battery with bike running: idle and at 5000rpm

3. after coming back from ride, take seat off and feel around battery. Is it hot? Feel air temp all around battery. 

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That’s what we get for battery life in cold Canada—around 6 years.  I’m the only person who trickle charges my batteries winter and summer so i always get more life than my other motorcycle instructor colleagues.  Two batteries in a row lasted eight years on the VFR but some of these small dirt bike batteries only last three years.  I’ve never gotten more than 7 years out of a car battery.  My brand new Nissan car battery crapped out after two years (defect...).

 

My brother-in-law got nine seasons out of a mc battery—-he completely ignored it.  Rode the bike only twice a year and never charged the thing ever.  And i mean ever.  They broke the mold after they made that battery.  Life isn’t fair....

 

I also label each battery with the bike type and the date they were purchased so i’m not guessing as to how many years it lasted.  Is your data correct?  Ten years is really good for you on lead acid batteries.  It just doesn’t happen around here.  

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Ok, 6-yr is more average. Cold also hurts them more. Seems battery quality has gone downhilk. Used to be able to buy 102-month battery @ Costco. Now can only find 36 or 48-mon batteries.

 

When getting lithium battery, make sure it has overcharge and overdischarge protection circuit. They tend to have less capacity than equivalent size lead-acid. If you turn off and leave lights on, it can deplete battery to death in less time.

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Thanks for the info.  I'll continue to do more research on the Lithium Ion stuff.

 

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I've been using Lithium Iron batteries since 2009... The first was
Josh Kaufman's Speed Cell... On the question of longevity my Speed
Cell Lithium Iron worked flawlessly in my RC45 for over 4 years
despite the fact it was discharged down to 3.5 volts in the first 2
years... It was still serviceable 2015 when I sold my Speed Cell to
Bob for his VFR 800 because I wanted a dedicated balance charging
system Shoria offers for my RC45...

 

Back in 2009 I went for a new Lithium Iron batteries because not only
are they 6 pounds 10 ounces lighter than the stock YUASA they do not
require trickle charging... I have had mine drop to 3.4 volts and
charge back up without the problems  associated with maintenance free
batteries...

The days of the old heavy lead acid battery are number... smart money
is on the new light weight Lithium Iron battery like Shorai... not
only is it 5lbs lighter but doesn't require trickle charging and will
not sulfate... I also recommend Shorai's balance charger because it as
two modes one for storage and one for charging...

 

http://www.shoraipower.com

 

 

Quote Shorai

Starter batteries of any type contain a large amount of energy. During
a short circuit, ALL that energy is released in a matter of seconds,
creating an extremely hot arc welder, possibly causing fire or
explosion. You MUST be very careful at all times to avoid short
circuit of the positive and negative terminals. Do NOT wear jewelry on
wrist or neck while handling batteries. INSURE that when installed the
positive and negative terminals are properly covered and insulated
from the vehicle. Do NOT use carbon fiber battery hold down units, as
carbon is an electrical conductor. When replacing a battery, its
important to verify that your charging system is working properly and
the output voltage is within the recommended range of 13.6-14.4v. At
no time should the charging system output be above 15.2v or it can
damage the battery.

All that is required by Shorai when up grading from stock to Li Ion
battery is to verify that your charging system is working properly and
the output voltage is within the recommended range of 13.6-14.4v. At
no time should the charging system output be above 15.2v or it can
damage the old lead or the new Li Ion battery.

 

Battery Basics

Or why do lithium-ion batteries cost so much?
Kevin Cameron
By Kevin Cameron
September 3, 2014

The term “lithium-ion battery” includes a wide variety of possible
electrode chemistries and electrolytes, and as these types of
batteries proliferate, we decided it was time to provide a basic
primer on them.

One of the most important facts is that lithium reacts vigorously with
water or water vapor. Therefore, lithium-ion batteries must be sealed
to exclude the atmosphere, and the electrolyte used cannot contain
water.

While most Li-ion batteries employ graphite anodes, cathode types and
applications are numerous, as follows:

Lithium cobalt oxide: achieves high energy density but current is
somewhat limited by electrode resistance and the heat generation that
it produces.


Lithium manganese oxide: good for electric tools requiring high
current. Less energy density than cobalt oxide.

Lithium iron phosphate: lower energy density but long life, inherent thermal safety.

Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide: good for low-drain medical equipment.

Lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide: able to tolerate many
charge-discharge cycles; might be useful for electrical grid storage
(storing solar power by day for discharge at night).

In all cases, the charging process stores lithium ions in the negative
electrode, or anode. Discharge moves lithium ions from anode to
cathode.

Think of electrode structure as analogous to the familiar problem of
airliner seating: To shorten loading/unloading time at airports, more
aisles are essential, but providing such aisles means the space they
occupy cannot be filled by more paying passengers.


Cathodes are made with structures that provide large surface area
(Li-cobalt oxide is a layered structure, but lithium manganese oxide
is a triangulated “spinel”). So, in general, having maximum energy
storage capacity makes it more difficult to achieve rapid
charge/discharge. Electrode resistance—chiefly the anode—generates
heat.

It was natural for users seeking maximum performance (laptop and
mobile-phone makers, Boeing, and others for aircraft use) to be
attracted to lithium cobalt oxide, but a number of well-publicized
laptop, handheld device, and other fires resulted, including one in a
Cessna CJ4 business jet, which caused the FAA to stipulate that this
model’s Li-ion main battery be replaced by either lead-acid or
nickel-metal hydride batteries. Boeing was allowed to put Li-cobalt
oxide aboard its new 787 Dreamliner because four levels of security
were provided. As we now know, even that did not prevent
“overheating.”

Fire results when a battery enters “thermal runaway,” develops
internal current, and becomes hot enough to vaporize its electrolyte,
generating internal pressure that bursts the battery’s containment.
The combination of the electrolyte—an organic solvent such as ethylene
carbonate—high temperature, and atmospheric oxygen generates an
intense fire. Lithium plus atmospheric water vapor reacts to lithium
hydroxide plus hydrogen gas. Big bangs!


Industry’s response has taken several forms: to shift to inherently
safer electrode chemistries such as Li-iron phosphate; to protect
high-performance batteries with charge/discharge controls and
temperature sensing circuitry; to add fire-retardant substances to
battery electrolyte.

In the case of the Shorai motorcycle battery, it employs the safe
lithium iron phosphate cathode chemistry. Even though this cathode
choice reduces energy storage in comparison with a Li-cobalt oxide
chemistry, it still displays much more energy storage than traditional
lead-acid.

Every week one can read of “breakthrough” developments in Li-ion
battery technology, most of them taking the form of ways to create
electrodes with extremely large surface area and an open structure
allowing rapid ion movement. No large company can afford to bet the
farm on new developments that have not been thoroughly explored, so it
can be years before such refinements make their way to market.

DSCN2021.JPG

ShoraiCharger1.JPG

DSCN2019.JPG

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Are there any lithium titanate moto batteries?

 

Due to cost and lower storage density, I think they're primarily used in power-grid storage and OEM primary batteries for EV applications. Their main benefit is fast charging. Unless you've got electric bike,  not sure cost is worth it to be able to charge dead battery in 10-minutes when jump-start only takes 2-minutes.

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  • 2 months later...

Cold cranking amps are the main concern. 

 

I have been using lithium ion batteries where ever weight is concerned due to the premium cost of lithium over traditional lead batteries.

 

The self discharge rate of the lithium ion batteries that I have used have been way more prominent when compared to the lead acid/agm.

 

In my track cars I had been using the WPS lithium ion battery meant for like a Snowmobile (s2000) and it has worked admirably but it doesn't have the warranty of the factory Panasonic AGM Honda Battery which has easily gone 96 months.

 

On my track bikes I have used shorai and also WPS and I prefer the WPS because the BMS is onboard so you don't have to carry some weird shorai balancer with it's very specific connector.

 

Battery Tender brand recently came out with their very reasonably priced lithium ion powersports batteries and they have been pretty spot on. On this giant whale of a motorcycle,  the lithium ion wasn't making a dent in terms of performance for me as the suspension and other parts of the bike were going to need upgrading before weight ever became a factor.

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3 hours ago, VeryFudgingRed said:

Cold cranking amps are the main concern. 

 

I have been using lithium ion batteries where ever weight is concerned due to the premium cost of lithium over traditional lead batteries.

 

The self discharge rate of the lithium ion batteries that I have used have been way more prominent when compared to the lead acid/agm.

 

In my track cars I had been using the WPS lithium ion battery meant for like a Snowmobile (s2000) and it has worked admirably but it doesn't have the warranty of the factory Panasonic AGM Honda Battery which has easily gone 96 months.

 

On my track bikes I have used shorai and also WPS and I prefer the WPS because the BMS is onboard so you don't have to carry some weird shorai balancer with it's very specific connector.

 

Battery Tender brand recently came out with their very reasonably priced lithium ion powersports batteries and they have been pretty spot on. On this giant whale of a motorcycle,  the lithium ion wasn't making a dent in terms of performance for me as the suspension and other parts of the bike were going to need upgrading before weight ever became a factor.

hi Danno I'm on BARF as well!

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On 4/5/2021 at 4:59 PM, VeryFudgingRed said:

hi Danno I'm on BARF as well!

Hi !!! 👋

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I'd point out that Honda now specs Lithium Ion batteries (made by a Japanese company called Eliiy Power) on some of its bikes, so the technology is officially "mainstream" now.  

 

Ciao,

 

JZH

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In the tropics we kill batteries every two years, just after warranty runs out. I moved to lithium because space run out to store dead ones plus I hate pushing starter button all dressed up and nothing. If switching to lithium for an older bike with cheapo voltage regulator conversion to mosfet is a good idea. Old reg will not last.

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On 4/6/2021 at 2:45 AM, Magneto said:

In the tropics we kill batteries every two years, just after warranty runs out. I moved to lithium because space run out to store dead ones plus I hate pushing starter button all dressed up and nothing. If switching to lithium for an older bike with cheapo voltage regulator conversion to mosfet is a good idea. Old reg will not last.

bring all those batteries to Oreilly autozone for $5/ea

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