Urbanengineer Posted July 17, 2018 Share Posted July 17, 2018 5 minutes ago, VARIABLE9 said: I don’t know the service manual procedure, so pardon me iif this is off base for your purposes/VFR’s. Urban did you have the radiator cap open in order for the ‘burp’ to escape? You can loosely cover with a rag to prevent splashies. Yes I did the burp step. It was pouring out the top actually lol. I actually just replaced the rad cap with a 16 PSI car cap (exact fit) and it didn’t change anything. Radiator membrane is not bent or anything 😪. Why can’t this just work 😭. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VARIABLE9 Posted July 18, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted July 18, 2018 I’d check the thermostat then. I just offered the ‘burp’ piece bc I didn’t see you specifically mention that step. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Brand new thermostat, just installed. Wax unit works as intended (shuts off at 155*). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted July 18, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted July 18, 2018 4 hours ago, Urbanengineer said: Yes I did the burp step. It was pouring out the top actually lol. I actually just replaced the rad cap with a 16 PSI car cap (exact fit) and it didn’t change anything. Radiator membrane is not bent or anything 😪. Why can’t this just work 😭. You seem to have covered a lot of bases, are you sure your coolant is circulating freely once the thermostat is fully opened? Could you have a potential blockage somewhere? Can you confirm there are no issues with your water pump? Could there be restrictions/crap in the radiator cores? Have you messed with the O2 sensors, could you be running an excessively lean mixture? Just thinking out loudly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VARIABLE9 Posted July 18, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted July 18, 2018 1 hour ago, Urbanengineer said: Brand new thermostat, just installed. Wax unit works as intended (shuts off at 155*). Does new thermostat work? Pull and check. Is new thermostat installed correctly? I’d verify that. Ensure it’s not stuck closed through install process. Just suggestions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VARIABLE9 Posted July 18, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted July 18, 2018 5 hours ago, Urbanengineer said: Yes I did the burp step. It was pouring out the top actually lol. I actually just replaced the rad cap with a 16 PSI car cap (exact fit) and it didn’t change anything. Radiator membrane is not bent or anything 😪. Why can’t this just work 😭. Another thing, during burping with the cap off gently squeeze each hose one by one. It can help motivate air bubbles to move past problem zones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Track use with fan running will see bike reach critical temps. Still, check thermostat actually works, sometimes unluckily a new one can be a dud from the factory. You really should install a manual override as fan on over 80km/h will just exarcerbate the nil air flow condition of fan flow direction being opposite to natural incoming airflow. Find a fan that fits on the RHS rad with decent airflow capabilities. Turn off OEM fan and run your secondary fan in same direction as natural airflow. I have burped a 6th gen up to three heat cycles until finally getting proper purge of all air and correct cooling, working of fan, auto choke function and such. The fucker just traps air everywhere. You have to let the bike get up to roughly 92ºC if memeory serves... so the thermostat opens and you get the full circuit flowing. Careful blipping, you can shoot burning hot coolant into your face or other body parts. Shut bike off before massive gushing occurs. The idea is bring it up to temp, blip getnly a few times and turn off. Rinse, recycle and repeat. Cover all electrical components in the area to protect from getting wet, especially the stator to R/R connector. Bike must be on sidestand during this procedure. Life's a biatch, then you crash, burn, rise like a Phoenix and life's still a biatch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 8 hours ago, Grum said: You seem to have covered a lot of bases, are you sure your coolant is circulating freely once the thermostat is fully opened? Could you have a potential blockage somewhere? Can you confirm there are no issues with your water pump? Could there be restrictions/crap in the radiator cores? Have you messed with the O2 sensors, could you be running an excessively lean mixture? Just thinking out loudly! I have no idea of the AFR, is there a way to check without buying a power commander? How would I see a blockage? How do you Diagnose water pump issues? Nothing is blocking the front or rear of the cores. I never did confirm the thermostat opens as did the old one... I imagine it’s a spring force test? 7 hours ago, VARIABLE9 said: Does new thermostat work? Pull and check. Is new thermostat installed correctly? I’d verify that. Ensure it’s not stuck closed through install process. Just suggestions! I did not check the thermostat opened new, but coolant doesn’t flow much at low temps, and then flows a lot at higher temps, makes sense that should be proof enough. Not sure how it could be blocked off from being installed. Only fits one way and is a press fit practically 😭. 6 hours ago, VARIABLE9 said: Another thing, during burping with the cap off gently squeeze each hose one by one. It can help motivate air bubbles to move past problem zones. Have tried this, as well as leaning the bike for an extended time to each side and it didn’t fix the issues with air in the system. 2 hours ago, Auspanglish said: Track use with fan running will see bike reach critical temps. Still, check thermostat actually works, sometimes unluckily a new one can be a dud from the factory. You really should install a manual override as fan on over 80km/h will just exarcerbate the nil air flow condition of fan flow direction being opposite to natural incoming airflow. Find a fan that fits on the RHS rad with decent airflow capabilities. Turn off OEM fan and run your secondary fan in same direction as natural airflow. I have burped a 6th gen up to three heat cycles until finally getting proper purge of all air and correct cooling, working of fan, auto choke function and such. The fucker just traps air everywhere. You have to let the bike get up to roughly 92ºC if memeory serves... so the thermostat opens and you get the full circuit flowing. Careful blipping, you can shoot burning hot coolant into your face or other body parts. Shut bike off before massive gushing occurs. The idea is bring it up to temp, blip getnly a few times and turn off. Rinse, recycle and repeat. Cover all electrical components in the area to protect from getting wet, especially the stator to R/R connector. Bike must be on sidestand during this procedure. Life's a biatch, then you crash, burn, rise like a Phoenix and life's still a biatch. Yes I need to get to installing a switch for this fan. How would one test a thermostat? It’s a spring force? Remove and press by hand I guess? I do need to buy that fan still, but it still should never overheat, or else Honda’s cooling system on day 1 was undersized for VTEC. I haven’t found many water proof options at this size. I have done this burping step with a spill free funnel. It’s relentless. Fluid will climb up and slowly fall back down. What’s next, a pressure test? It needs to hit 1.1 bar I guess. Would make sense - Cooling issues - pressure test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VARIABLE9 Posted July 18, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted July 18, 2018 2 hours ago, Urbanengineer said: I have no idea of the AFR, is there a way to check without buying a power commander? How would I see a blockage? How do you Diagnose water pump issues? Nothing is blocking the front or rear of the cores. I never did confirm the thermostat opens as did the old one... I imagine it’s a spring force test? I did not check the thermostat opened new, but coolant doesn’t flow much at low temps, and then flows a lot at higher temps, makes sense that should be proof enough. Not sure how it could be blocked off from being installed. Only fits one way and is a press fit practically 😭. Have tried this, as well as leaning the bike for an extended time to each side and it didn’t fix the issues with air in the system. Yes I need to get to installing a switch for this fan. How would one test a thermostat? It’s a spring force? Remove and press by hand I guess? I do need to buy that fan still, but it still should never overheat, or else Honda’s cooling system on day 1 was undersized for VTEC. I haven’t found many water proof options at this size. I have done this burping step with a spill free funnel. It’s relentless. Fluid will climb up and slowly fall back down. What’s next, a pressure test? It needs to hit 1.1 bar I guess. Would make sense - Cooling issues - pressure test. Test thermostat by putting in boiling water on stove. As for being installed incorrectly, even with it being 'press fit' (just like many vehicles out there) people can and will mess it up. Personally I'd just redo all the basics two three times before worrying about a PC or new fan arrangement. If you can't get it to work as Mr. Honda designed then you're band aiding and setting up to fail even bigger down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 No, the thermostat has bimetal bits that lengthen or shorten at certain temps. You test it in a saucepan of hot water with a thermometer... Watch it open and close checking at what temps. Temp range is specified in service manual, you can download on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Starting with a pressure test tomorrow. Rented the tool today. Thanks for the additional information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Well, I Gladly have found the problem! Unfortunately it means buying stuff lol. It involved renting a pressure testing tool. I have leaky hoses. I’ve tightened the leaky hose clamps as best I can to help it hold pressure, but unfortunately they are seeping at the ends in a few places. The system would hold pressure for 3 minutes or so ( 15 PSI ~ 1 bar ) before fluid would leak. A system that can’t hold pressure can’t cool under harsh conditions! I’ve had my eye on a Chinese silicone set. I suppose it’s time to order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted July 20, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted July 20, 2018 37 minutes ago, Urbanengineer said: Well, I Gladly have found the problem! Unfortunately it means buying stuff lol. It involved renting a pressure testing tool. I have leaky hoses. I’ve tightened the leaky hose clamps as best I can to help it hold pressure, but unfortunately they are seeping at the ends in a few places. The system would hold pressure for 3 minutes or so ( 15 PSI ~ 1 bar ) before fluid would leak. A system that can’t hold pressure can’t cool under harsh conditions! Hi Urban. Sorry if I sound a bit negative but I don't get it! During your track day with excessively high coolant temps you said your coolant levels where fine, you've not reported any loss of fluid. If your system has genuine leakage, wouldn't you be seeing coolant loss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted July 20, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted July 20, 2018 Did this mod on my 08 800. Also put O2 eliminators on removed the PAIR valves and all together smoothed out the low revs beautifully. Has anyone done the full monty mod on an 8th Gen yet? I'm still getting some low rev hesitation and wonder whether this engine respond to the mods as well as the old one did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Grum said: Hi Urban. Sorry if I sound a bit negative but I don't get it! During your track day with excessively high coolant temps you said your coolant levels where fine, you've not reported any loss of fluid. If your system has genuine leakage, wouldn't you be seeing coolant loss? Makes sense, when testing and riding around it was building up some pressure, but not necessarily 15 PSI worth of pressure. It hadn’t leaked until the pressure test for what that is worth. Am I wrong to order some replacement hoses? 1 hour ago, Skids said: Did this mod on my 08 800. Also put O2 eliminators on removed the PAIR valves and all together smoothed out the low revs beautifully. Has anyone done the full monty mod on an 8th Gen yet? I'm still getting some low rev hesitation and wonder whether this engine respond to the mods as well as the old one did. What is “this mod?” Replacing coolant hoses? I could imagine part of my running issues have to do with the PAIR system. I’ve been looking to buy a pair of block offs. Do we need 4 block offs or just 2 for the VFR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Mohawk Posted July 20, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted July 20, 2018 I had an issue with mine cooling a few year back it gradually got worse. Turned out after testing many things that a previous owner had used tap water with the antifreeze & the radiators had furred up inside. When I stripped the system to do other work, it became apparent. There is a process of using caustic soda in water to remove the furring, its weird watching cold water smoke with your cold radiator in it, but the amount of crap that came out of the rads was unbelievable. Been perfect ever since, so worth checking ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, Mohawk said: I had an issue with mine cooling a few year back it gradually got worse. Turned out after testing many things that a previous owner had used tap water with the antifreeze & the radiators had furred up inside. When I stripped the system to do other work, it became apparent. There is a process of using caustic soda in water to remove the furring, its weird watching cold water smoke with your cold radiator in it, but the amount of crap that came out of the rads was unbelievable. Been perfect ever since, so worth checking ! Fair enough. I’ll entertain that! Do you have a video or write up about that because I don’t really understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Yep I really should’ve taken the car it’s not liking heavy traffic outside of Pittsburgh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Skids Posted July 21, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted July 21, 2018 On 7/20/2018 at 3:23 PM, Urbanengineer said: What is “this mod?” Replacing coolant hoses? I could imagine part of my running issues have to do with the PAIR system. I’ve been looking to buy a pair of block offs. Do we need 4 block offs or just 2 for the VFR? How did that end up in this thread??? Something weird going on here.....or too much red wine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Replaced 95% of the hoses and am now waiting for the 90* hose connecting the water pump to the block line connector. Bought a rust destroyer / coolant system cleaner and will install it Saturday and ride on it for a few days. The water pump fans have rust!!! The alum radiator has no issues with corrrosion which is unexpected. The original owner must’ve just ran tap water 🤦🏽♂️ Hoping the new lines and upcoming flush fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer VARIABLE9 Posted August 3, 2018 Member Contributer Share Posted August 3, 2018 Have you thought of wiring in a fan switch? I’m not 100% you need one. Just wondering. I think the maintenance and hoses replacement will help. Also, have you bench tested the thermostat yet as mentioned above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Yes works as intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smurfbud Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 I fitted a set of Samco hoses to my Viffer in April along with new SS clips and tightened them up nice n taught. Whilst on a recent trip my mate said he could smell coolant every time we stopped but there were no apparent leaks, drips or puddles that we could see, however my reservoir bottle dropped from upper to lower level, so I was obviously loosing coolant somewhere. As part of my strip-down to address my revving issue (ongoing), it became apparent that nearly every hose clip had worked itself loose, and although again there were no obvious leaks, I guess there were sufficient "hose end weeps" to cause the loss of coolant when under operating pressure which then probably evaporated with engine temperature leaving no trace! As I have now drained the system to get my throttle bodies off, I don't know whether the loose clips were the cause of the coolant loss, but it is something to be aware of when fitting new hoses - go back and re-tighten the clips ...... oh and fit the little darlings in an orientation that allows you to get at them without having to strip the bloody bike down!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urbanengineer Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 Well I wish it was possible to access the “inbetween the heads” ones without removing parts, but it seems that’s pretty necessary to remove the TB’s to get to some 😢 . At least I’ve had them off plenty of times so at least I can get to them easy. I tightened all of them with a 6mm socket and socket wrench. Hope it works out I don’t have to retighten but I’ll see. Thanks for your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspanglish Posted August 7, 2018 Share Posted August 7, 2018 It's not such a difficult task to remove TBs, just time consuming. Hope you angled all the screws so you can reach them with an extension through the TBs by just lifting fuel tank and airbox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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