RC79Scott Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I see this has been discussed a few times, but I thought I would bring it up again. My '14 has 3500 miles on it. At the 600 mile service I used the recommended Honda 10w30 and Honda filter. I had never noticed any oil consumption at all until recently it has gone from the top line to the halfway point between lines. This consumption seems to have occurred very quickly, like in the last 500 miles. No signs of leaking. Coincidentally (or not), this is also the period where I installed the Akropovic. It has also been very hot here in TN this spring. I'm just kind of curious... Should I shrug this off and just monitor it, maybe a break-in issue? Should I switch to 10w40 at the next change, as others in hot environs have done? Could it be related to the muffler change at all? Curious what everyone thinks or is experiencing these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checksix Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 a) might be break-in, just keep an eye on it after the next oil change (you're checking with the bike on center stand, right?) b) use 10W40 . I think Honda recommends 10W30 so they can squeeze out an extra 0.5 MPG for the EPA c) not likely that the muffler had anything to do with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC79Scott Posted June 20, 2016 Author Share Posted June 20, 2016 On 6/19/2016 at 3:19 PM, checksix said: ...you're checking with the bike on center stand, right?... Yep, although I think the manual just says check it while upright or something, in case you may not have a center stand I guess. The two are not the same, but close enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrypz Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Just came back from a 3500 mile loop of the southeast US. Did not use a drop. Bike has 12,000 miles on it, also a '14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Each time you check the level, have you run the engine for 5 minutes, then waited several minutes, then checked the level? Which model of Honda oil is this? Is the color of the oil in the inspection window like new? Have you recently been revving it to a higher RPM? I might expect oil loss if taking a brand new engine to a new RPM range. An aftermarket header affects the engine vacuum and temperature, but a slip-on muffler has little effect. For the most part, the engine does not know that you changed the muffler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VifferRiderUK Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Mines now used nearly a litre of oil in 7000 miles! (2014 eighth gen 10w30 oil). I'm seriously hoping a change to 10w40 will resolve this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 14 minutes ago, aitchUK said: Mines now used nearly a litre of oil in 7000 miles! (2014 eighth gen 10w30 oil). I'm seriously hoping a change to 10w40 will resolve this! What brand and model of oil are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC79Scott Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 16 hours ago, Knight said: Each time you check the level, have you run the engine for 5 minutes, then waited several minutes, then checked the level? Which model of Honda oil is this? Is the color of the oil in the inspection window like new? Have you recently been revving it to a higher RPM? I might expect oil loss if taking a brand new engine to a new RPM range. An aftermarket header affects the engine vacuum and temperature, but a slip-on muffler has little effect. For the most part, the engine does not know that you changed the muffler. Yes, engine is hot and waited a few minutes. Oil is Pro Honda GN4 10w30 SJ. Color seems about the same as ever, and been revving it about the same since the 600 mile service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VifferRiderUK Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 18 hours ago, Knight said: What brand and model of oil are you using? I don't actually know as it's the brand the dealer uses. It's definitely 10w30 though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 11 hours ago, RC79Scott said: Yes, engine is hot and waited a few minutes. Oil is Pro Honda GN4 10w30 SJ. Color seems about the same as ever, and been revving it about the same since the 600 mile service. What is odd is in the 5th gen the manual shows that 10W30 is no good above the low 80s F ambient temperature. Also the 6th gen service manual specifies 10W40. That would seem to validate checksix's statement that the 10W30 recommendation is an "EPA special". I also doubt the EPA considered the environmental impact of the thinner oil vaporizing into the air. They are in fact dummies. Looking for a concrete design change I wondered if they changed the pump to supply a different volume for use of 10W30 vs 10W40. The 2002 oil pump is the same part as the 2014 oil pump. So, nope! Although they could change the oil galley size to do the same. Someone would need to measure that. If they are the same then the oil weight change does not make any sense. No matter how improved oils are, one cannot deny the mathematics of oil flow. Having to pay to top off the oil with expensive motorcycle oil is going to negate any mileage savings the 10W30 provides. I agree with checksix, and if the loss continues then try 10W40 and see what happens. Have you mentioned it to the dealer? I wonder what their opinion is. Please keep us updated because there is little information on this topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 5 hours ago, aitchUK said: I don't actually know as it's the brand the dealer uses. It's definitely 10w30 though. Your receipt should tell. Presuming they use a Honda oil, and if so I think Honda offers today GN (conventional), HP4, (synthetic blend), HP4S (pure synthetic.) You can get used to eyeballing the cost too as the cost of these differs greatly. The difference might be something like $5 / $7 / $9 (US) respectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbone322 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 I have asked two separate dealers the 10W30 vs 10W40 question. Both dealers said run 10W40 in the summer when it is hot and in fact the one dealer said he recently asked the Honda service rep the same question and the rep said to use 10W0 too. Likely as others said above - 10W30 it is for the fuel economy or emissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted June 23, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted June 23, 2016 Hi RC79Scott. Here's my two bob's worth! If you really are losing that amount of oil and you say there are no leaks then you must be burning it, in which case I would imagine you would be getting a smokey, smelly exhaust output. Try to be consistent in monitoring your oil level, e.g same location and on your centre stand. Your Akro exhaust will have nothing to do with it and nor should running a 30 or 40 weight oil, but perhaps, in very hot conditions there may be a bit more oil burn with the lighter weight oil, but wouldn't be completely sure of that. Monitor it closely, and if it continues falling below the minimum line then you have an issue. It is extremely rare that a new VFR would have any form of oil consumption issue. I'm sure most of the forum members will agree with me, that for instance my own four VFR's have never required a drop of oil top up (in between services) from the day I purchased them. Keep us informed with what you discover. Hopefully you can get a definite diagnosis Before your two year warranty runs out. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 This came up once before and it was resolved by switching to 10 w 40 semi synthetic on a RC 79. Mine has never used a drop in 14000Kms and I always have used 10w 40 from day 1, as have all previous 4 vfrs. I use 10 w 50 in my 4th gen FWIW. 10 w 30 is too thin unless you ride in sub zero temps IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Bent Posted June 26, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted June 26, 2016 Where you check the sight glass has a lot to do with the level you will see on the sight glass. I've put a level on the floor on the two places where I check my oil level in the sight glass and neither place in my garage is perfectly level. Both places where I keep my bike show very different oil levels when parked and on the center stand. Check your oil in the exact same place to get consistent readings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan553 Posted June 26, 2016 Share Posted June 26, 2016 In a pinch I hang a small mirror on the wall horizontal to the oil window and just put bike upright and check it out vs putting it up on center stand, I can also stand my iPad on floor next to glass and turn it on camera.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC79Scott Posted June 26, 2016 Author Share Posted June 26, 2016 Yeah, I had discovered that a consistent location for checking is very important. Kind of surprising how much different it can be, even in two places that are just a few feet apart on the same, apparently level, floor. I've found a level spot and put some tape down. Anybody ever noticed different readings when taken after actually riding compared to just warming up a cold bike (and waiting 2-3 minutes in each case)? I'm starting to think my level is consistently higher when checked after a ride than when the bike had been cold, not ridden at all, and warmed to 175F. (I chose 175 because my normal cruising temp is around there +/- summer / winter). Not enough evidence yet, but I'm really suspecting that I was always checking it after a ride, and it looked perfect; but then recently I did it the other way and thought it was low. Unfortunately, when I thought it was low I added some--maybe a cup--so now it appears high after a ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shinigami Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 One cup is 230-something CC's. In my experience as little as 120 cc's is enough to take you from bottom of the sight glass to the top 1/3rd. A cup is a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC79Scott Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 21 hours ago, Shinigami said: One cup is 230-something CC's. In my experience as little as 120 cc's is enough to take you from bottom of the sight glass to the top 1/3rd. A cup is a lot. EDIT:. Fixed errors... Well, I didn't measure, but I'd say that a cup is close. I purchased a US gallon at the 600 mile service, and if I used 3.3 quarts* then and then another .5 (a cup) the other day, then there should be very little left of the gallon--and that's where I'm at. Anyway, that ~cup only went half the distance between lines, though, nowhere close to what you are suggesting. Strange. At any rate, on a system that holds a total of 4.1 quarts*, a cup is about 1/16. A half cup would then only be 1/32, or about 3%. Not sure if that implies anything at all, just throwing it out there. Whether those are large or small numbers relative to the level on the sight glass would depend on the shape of the area behind the glass, I guess. I'm going to try an experiment and will post some photos, probably this weekend if I get a chance. I'm really curious whether I get substantially different readings after riding compared to just warming it in place. I guess riding could cause some bubbles that would tend to increase volume, but I don't see any and it doesn't seem like they would be that significant anyway. I'm going to set a marked, level place in my garage. Then I'm going for a ride. Then I'm setting it in place and waiting 2-3 minutes. Check. Then I'm going to leave it all night, in place. Then warm it up, wait 2-3 minutes, and check. I'm thinking I'm seeing differences of about 1/3 the distance between lines. Probably all in my head, but I can't let it go now. LOL *Oil capacity taken from shop manual: 4.1 quart at disassembly, 3.3 oil+filter change, 3.1 oil change only Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Grum Posted June 28, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted June 28, 2016 4 hours ago, RC79Scott said: Well, I didn't measure, but I'd say that a cup is close. I purchased a US gallon at the 600 mile service, and if I used 3.3 quarts* then and then another .5 (a cup) the other day, then there should be very little left of the gallon--and that's where I'm at. Anyway, that ~cup only went half the distance between lines, though, nowhere close to what you are suggesting. Strange. At any rate, on a system that holds a total of 4.1 quarts*, a cup is about 1/8 or 12.5%. A half cup would then only be 1/16 or 6.25%. Not sure if that implies anything at all, just throwing it out there. Whether those are large or small numbers relative to the level on the sight glass would depend on the shape of the area behind the glass, I guess. I'm going to try an experiment and will post some photos, probably this weekend if I get a chance. I'm really curious whether I get substantially different readings after riding compared to just warming it in place. I guess riding could cause some bubbles that would tend to increase volume, but I don't see any and it doesn't seem like they would be that significant anyway. I'm going to set a marked, level place in my garage. Then I'm going for a ride. Then I'm setting it in place and waiting 2-3 minutes. Check. Then I'm going to leave it all night, in place. Then warm it up, wait 2-3 minutes, and check. I'm thinking I'm seeing differences of about 1/3 the distance between lines. Probably all in my head, but I can't let it go now. LOL *Oil capacity taken from shop manual: 4.1 quart at disassembly, 3.3 oil+filter change, 3.1 oil change only Wow! With all due respect RC79Scott, we seem to have taken a very simple process of oil level checking into the heady heights of rocket science. Just be consistent in your place of measurement (level ground of course) and on the centre stand (assuming you do have a centre stand!). Just remember that after a ride there may be a bit of a delay in oil returning back to the sump, there would no doubt be a fair quantity from the oil cooler to. I check my oil levels regularly and it is very constant, the only time I've added oil is shortly after an oil change just to get the level right, from then on, never add a drop. It would be extremely rare (but not impossible) that you would have an oil issue with such a new bike. Good Luck. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogman Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 RC79Scott they have been making this engine now for 14 years, and it has never had a reputation as an oil burner. Dont put too fine a point on checking the oil level, I have had 3 of these engines and always do all my own servicing, and really as long as you can see the upper surface of the oil in the sight glass with the bike upright then you shouldnt worry too much. It even makes a difference if the bike is on the mainstand or just being held upright, due to the attitude of the bike. The amount of oil used by an oil and filter change is 3.7litres. I have a friend whose bike was serviced at a dealership and they put in a full 4 litres and when queried about it, they said it was their common practice to do so, and they had never had any problems. Now I dont condone this, and my friend drained off 300Mls to get the level correct, but it illustrates that there is some latitude allowable in checking the oil level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC79Scott Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 Grum, dogman:. I know, I know. LOL. Just got interested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VifferRiderUK Posted July 24, 2016 Share Posted July 24, 2016 Well here's the oil level after 901 miles of use (the level was previously at the top mark on the sight glass). The picture was taken in 'exactly' the same position as when topped up to the upper mark - so no issues with the ground levels/ camber etc. This is the oil I've used to top it up... nearly 1ltr now in less than 8000 miles. Going to the dealer soon for a service... hopefully a change to 10w-40 will sort this otherwise it's a warranty issue! : ( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC79Scott Posted July 24, 2016 Author Share Posted July 24, 2016 For posterity... I pretty much decided that it had not burned any oil, after all. I think it was all related to where I was checking it. I've put about 500 miles on some fresh oil and not seeing anything. Too hot around here these days to ride much, but I'll be keeping an eye on it. Definitely recommend that anyone find a level place and use it exclusively when filling / checking. A quick check here or there is fine, of course, but don't draw any conclusions--the level in that sight glass is way too sensitive to even the slightest tilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Bent Posted July 24, 2016 Member Contributer Share Posted July 24, 2016 Maybe related or maybe not, but at your bike's mileage, it's fine to run the snot out of it. All three VFR's I've owned got run at high rpms whenever I wanted beginning at the 600 mile "break in" oil change. Well, the 5th gen. didn't but I bought it with only 4000 miles on it. VFR's don't mind high rpm's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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