Another Darn Cct Question

[expvet]

I was beginning to change my CCTs beginning with the rear one when I hit a snag. I checked the winding procedure to retract the tensioner with the unused new one and found that to fully retract the head it takes 6 complete turns. When I went to remove the old one I was able to get to 4 full turns before it gave so much resistance that the the tool would bend. I tried a few more times with the same results and decided to stop until I found out for sure if it is necessary to fully retract the head with the 6 turns or are 4 enough?

[Terry]

I would guess that the in service CCT is bearing on the chain so won't extend as far as the CCT that is uninstalled.

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[Switchblade]

Just make sure it can not spring out when you start to remove it. If the key has it lock just remove the bolts slowly . 4 reverse turns should be enough and that maybe all there is. Back it out one revolution on each bolt and take your thumb and apply pressure to the CCT and see if you can press down on the CCT assembly then rotate it another turn and do the same procedure . IT should be back off more pressure. If not then CCT key is not locking down the spring.

[expvet]

Thanks for the replies.

That is what I was thinking, that the shaft is not at full extension and that 4 turns is all it takes to draw it back in. Having seen an exploded diagram here on VFRD of the engine the rear one seems to be closer to the tension guide on the chain and so does not extend as much. Just wanted to be safe after reading a couple of posts where the cap fell in and the hassle it was to fish it out.

Just to rant a bit. That tool is a joke. It is murder on the fingers and once it gets some of the dripping oil becomes almost impossible to handle. It is amazing that a company with the resources like Honda puts out such a mediocre design. Bad enough they took away the gear driven cams, but do they have to them follow with poorly designed CCTs that are a hassle to work with? This is followed with the VFR 1200 CCT that requires a major engine tear down to replace. Wonder what the deal is with the 8th gens.

[spud786]

you should fully compress the tensioner, with a screwdriver, install the key to hold it , Mount the tensioner, remove the key at it will go where it needs to go, very simple.

[Switchblade]

Here the internals .

And a great write up .

http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php/topic/76-cam-chain-tensioner-without-throttle-body-removal/

[expvet]

The new one is tensioned and ready to go. My problem was when tensioning the rear old one to remove it I was only getting about 4 full turns before it would not turn anymore without the tool beginning to bend. My understanding now is that since the shaft does not fully extend when in use it takes less full turns to retract it than when the shaft is extended outside of the engine. By my count it was 6 turns for the new one outside vs. 4 turns for the old one that was inside the engine. Does this seem correct?

And yes, that was the write up I was using as a guide. It is only focused on removing the front one but pretty much walks you through the whole routine.

[spud786]

The new one is tensioned and ready to go. My problem was when tensioning the rear old one to remove it I was only getting about 4 full turns before it would not turn anymore without the tool beginning to bend. My understanding now is that since the shaft does not fully extend when in use it takes less full turns to retract it than when the shaft is extended outside of the engine. By my count it was 6 turns for the new one outside vs. 4 turns for the old one that was inside the engine. Does this seem correct?

And yes, that was the write up I was using as a guide. It is only focused on removing the front one but pretty much walks you through the whole routine.

You don't wind the tensioner to remove only lock it in place, so it doesn't extend any more.

[expvet]

Ah, now that makes more sense. Fortunately I have you good people to consult instead of guessing. By the way, does anyone know the torque values of the 2 mounting bolts and the cap bolt? Can't seem to find them in the service manual.

[Auspanglish]

It doesn't matter.

Obviously it is already somewhat compressed when fitted to the bike. So you won't get 6 full turns as it isn't fully extended.

You can turn it 4 times to wind it in and lock the key in place. Or you can just lock the key the first time it aligns with the locking slot.

It doesn't matter.

The idea is just to avoid the thing jumping backward or outward when removing the two mounting bolts as this MIGHT cause the end cap to get knocked off the tensioner INSIDE the motor. Just makes life easier and the procedure safer from Homer Simpson "D'oh!!" moments.

Torque would be snug with a small socket wrench. Wrist force at most... definitely not full arm force. Like surely no more than 10-12 Nm.

Edit: I underdid it there. Don't know my own strength. You get a feeling for these things but it wouold be best to be scientific, and it is in the workshop manual:

Sidenote, if you don't find the specific value for the specific bolt, there is usually a generic indication in these manuals:

Funny thing, found a (very stereotypically japanese) typo in the torque section:

[expvet]

Got it, I will turn the tensioner a turn or 2 and lock the tool in. Made sense once all the replies came in.

As for the torque, I had seen those two tensioner flange bolt values but when I checked further found that they were referring to bolts that secure the actual tensioner on the chain inside the engine. The standard torque value chart you provided was what I was looking for. I think I will first snug up to 9lb, continue and then stop when I feel resistance. Engine runs great and cruises smooth as silk but when idling that rattle is so annoying. Hopefully changing the tensioners will be the end of it.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

[spud786]

Increase the oil port in the gasket to 2.75mm , other wise dry lube scenario will have it rattling again, the next day , a week , or within a couple months.

[Cogswell]

Got it, I will turn the tensioner a turn or 2 and lock the tool in. Made sense once all the replies came in.

As for the torque, I had seen those two tensioner flange bolt values but when I checked further found that they were referring to bolts that secure the actual tensioner on the chain inside the engine. The standard torque value chart you provided was what I was looking for. I think I will first snug up to 9lb, continue and then stop when I feel resistance. Engine runs great and cruises smooth as silk but when idling that rattle is so annoying. Hopefully changing the tensioners will be the end of it.

Thanks to everyone for your help.

cam chain guide.JPG

Glad this is working out. Agreed that Honda has done and continues to do a lousy job on the CCT's.

How many miles did you have on it when you began to notice the rattling?

[expvet]

Mileage wise I have only 5800+ miles, but it is an 06 so it is over 9 years old. The spring would loose tension over time so seems like this may be a case of age instead of miles.

@ Spud786, Yes, I plan to enlarge the hole in the gasket as you showed in an earlier thread. I asked you in the thread how many miles you had with the mod and in November 2014 you replied 10,000, which I assume by now is even more. Basically it is to drill the oil port hole in the gasket to 2.75mm, correct?

[Switchblade]

Mileage wise I have only 5800+ miles, but it is an 06 so it is over 9 years old. The spring would loose tension over time so seems like this may be a case of age instead of miles.

@ Spud786, Yes, I plan to enlarge the hole in the gasket as you showed in an earlier thread. I asked you in the thread how many miles you had with the mod and in November 2014 you replied 10,000, which I assume by now is even more. Basically it is to drill the oil port hole in the gasket to 2.75mm, correct?

I did the same after reading spud suggestion and I use a drill bit.

[spud786]

Yeah its a simple mod and increases oil flow substantially through the tensioner, I got a KTM 500 at the beginning of the year, and it sees most the mileage, these days, like 7,000 miles worth thus far, vfr gets ridden weekly, but just to keep fuel flowing through it, maybe only a few thousand miles.

I spent more time in that thread reopening the tensioner trying to get the missing cap, but the oil flow mod has been excellent.

Basically it is to drill the oil port hole in the gasket to 2.75mm, correct?

[expvet]

Today I successfully replaced the rear tensioner. It was actually pretty easy since I did a dry run last weekend. The rattle is reduced a bit but it is now clearer that the majority of the noise comes from the front. Next chance I will work on replacing that one with the gasket mod while referring to the no throttle bodies removal thread posted here earlier. I want to take advantage of the airbox being off to do a throttle synch with a carbtune I picked up on sale a few months ago. Hopefully that will be the end of the rattling. Honda just doesn't get how pedestrian they made the VFR when they switched away from the gear driven cams to VTEC. The 6th gen is an improvement in handling and looks but had they kept the driven cams it would have been the total package and I believe a better seller.

[Switchblade]

Today I successfully replaced the rear tensioner. It was actually pretty easy since I did a dry run last weekend. The rattle is reduced a bit but it is now clearer that the majority of the noise comes from the front. Next chance I will work on replacing that one with the gasket mod while referring to the no throttle bodies removal thread posted here earlier. I want to take advantage of the airbox being off to do a throttle synch with a carbtune I picked up on sale a few months ago. Hopefully that will be the end of the rattling. Honda just doesn't get how pedestrian they made the VFR when they switch away from the gear driven cams to VTEC. The 6th gen is an improvement in handling and looks but had they kept the driven cams it would have been the total package and I believe a better seller.

And when you do the sync on the starter valves , for those of us who like to know what there set at before you begin.