What Is "super Dot Brake Fluid"?

[awacs]

Another day of weak Google-Fu.

Is "Super DOT 4" brake fluid anything more than Marketing speak? Does it mean the stuff exceeds the DOT 4 standard? I assume it's compatible with a system that's always seen DOT 4...?

Follow up question: why does't the 5th gen tool kit contain a chiropractor? (Or a bikini-clad masseuse?) Seven straight hours of twisting bolts and mostly twisting my body -- I'd pay a few extra bucks for one.

Thanks,

Aram

[MBrane]

I just buy whatever DOT 4 fluid the local parts house carries, and change it often.

My Harbor Freight bike lift has more than paid for itself over the last couple years. Like heated gear I wished I'd got it sooner. I'm getting too old to be crawling around on the garage floor especially when the weather is cold.

[Veefer800Canuck]

Well, the brake fluid will make you feel super! Maybe rub it on your aches and pains????

(No don't)

[awacs]

I just buy whatever DOT 4 fluid the local parts house carries, and change it often. My Harbor Freight bike lift has more than paid for itself over the last couple years. Like heated gear I wished I'd got it sooner. I'm getting too old to be crawling around on the garage floor especially when the weather is cold.

Yeah, me too. So my local Cycle Gear had this "Super" stuff, which I bought, and it got me wondering.

Veefer800Canuck:

"Well, the brake fluid will make you feel super! Maybe rub it on your aches and pains???? (No don't)"

Wel... I've done stupider things than that....

Aram

[gll429]

supposed to have a higher boiling point than reg dot 4

[awacs]

My Harbor Freight bike lift has more than paid for itself over the last couple years. Like heated gear I wished I'd got it sooner. I'm getting too old to be crawling around on the garage floor especially when the weather is cold.

I didn't know HF sold one. Is this the model you have?

http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-motorcycle-lift-68892-8495.html

That would save a world of back aches! Thanks for the tip.

Aram

[BusyLittleShop]

I coach my customers that instead of looking at brake fluid as
D.O.T. 3/4 versus D.O.T. 5, we should see the issue as glycol versus
silicone. This represents the larger division of type, and comparing
D.O.T. ratings just isn't significant, especially since D.O.T. 5
fluids are now available in glycol formulation. Glycol fluids have
improved until they now meet D.O.T. 5 standards. D.O.T. 5.1 for
example, is a glycol fluid designed for certain ABS systems having
mechanically cycling proportion valves. So now we have D.O.T. 3, 4, 5,
and 5.1, with all but the 5 designation being glycol, while D.O.T 5 is
silicone.

The real way to compare brake fluids is by deciding what is important
to you. Is silicone fluid's safety around paint and plastic more
important than yearly changes and a softer action? Its higher boiling
point, the reason for its development and at one time its strong suit,
is now academic, since D.O.T. 5 glycol (5.1) fluids are now widely
available. Glycol fluid therefore is, for most of us, the better brake
fluid, and the best just may be the 5.1, if the highest boiling point,
which is really a moisture tolerance measurement, matters.

As Glycol progressively contains more moisture it will start to turn
golden, then light brown, Eventually, if left unchanged beyond the
recommended service interval, the fluid will become dark brown,
indicating high amounts of water absorption and thus badly
contaminated fluid... The other problem with this continuous exposure
to moisture is that moisture makes the brake fluid more compressible.
You don't want any compressibility in a brake system. For every
millimeter that the lever moves, you expect a proportionate movement
of the brake pads against the disc. If you don't have that, you have
an unreliable and dangerous brake system. Unfortunately, brake fluid
becomes more compressible as it increases in water content. Water
contains hydrogen, and in response to many heat cycles like at a track
the brake fluid soon has air mixed into it as well as moisture and may
boil... in fact some track day tech inspectors check for brown fluid...

On the practical side, beware that glycol and silicone brake fluids
are hugely incompatible with each other. Mixing even small amounts
will create a sludge that looks amazingly like Italian salad dressing
and is about as effective as a brake fluid

Boiling point of Glycol based brake fluids
DOT 3 205 °C (401 °F)
DOT 4 230 °C (446 °F)
DOT 5 260 °C (500 °F)
DOT 5.1 270 °C (518 °F)

Boiling point of Silicone based brake fluids
DOT 5 260 °C (500 °F)

[awacs]

BusyLittleShop,

Thank you for that very informative post. I'm saving it.

I am aware of the issues around hygroscopicity, and the deterioration of performance that results. I replace my brake and clutch fluids yearly (or thereabouts) as cheap insurance. I like my brakes. I like them best when they stop the bike.

I didn't know abouty the silicon breed of fluids. Thanks for explaining. The concern that triggered my initial post was residual previous fluid mixing with the new stuff. From your post, it sounds like I should be fine -- if I gather correclty that all fluids labeled DOT4 are glycol based. (I flushed the old stuff out fairly thoroughly anyway).

Thanks again for the information.

Ride safe,

Aram

[Dutchy]

Dot 5 is silicone based

Dot 5.1 glycol

I have yet to see a glycol basec Dot 5............

YMMV

[joneill]

My Harbor Freight bike lift has more than paid for itself over the last couple years. Like heated gear I wished I'd got it sooner. I'm getting too old to be crawling around on the garage floor especially when the weather is cold.

I didn't know HF sold one. Is this the model you have?

http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-motorcycle-lift-68892-8495.html

That would save a world of back aches! Thanks for the tip.

Aram

You may already know...they are regularly on sale. Look in the back of most MC mags and frequenly there is a HF ad with the lift discounted to $299. I have a store locally, so I can't comment on shipping costs.

[MBrane]

My Harbor Freight bike lift has more than paid for itself over the last couple years. Like heated gear I wished I'd got it sooner. I'm getting too old to be crawling around on the garage floor especially when the weather is cold.

I didn't know HF sold one. Is this the model you have?

http://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-motorcycle-lift-68892-8495.html

That would save a world of back aches! Thanks for the tip.

Aram

Yup that's the one, and I used a coupon from a magazine add for the $299 price. Picked it up at the local store. The wheel vise is pretty useless so I just took it off, and use a couple tie-downs to secure the bike.

[Bassie]

Is there any point to this? As we all know Honda tells you to use DOT4, as such DOT4 should be fine.

I'm sorry, but I don't see any reason to change to anything else.

As well as the boiling point, it's not like the breaks itself come near the oil, there is a fairly large distance between the breaks and the oil itself.

I do not believe it will even come close to those boiling values, not even with racing kits.

One better invests money in steal-shielded tubes then using "better" oil, it will do far more.

Don't forget, the break-material is on the other side of the breaking-cylinder and the oil is beyond that.

No way it will get anywhere near boiling.

[awacs]

Is there any point to this? As we all know Honda tells you to use DOT4, as such DOT4 should be fine.

As the OP, my point was that I had bought what was available. Months later, when I actually went to use the stuff, I noticed the "Super DOT 4" designation and posted to make sure I would be ok.

That said, I thought BLS's post was very informative.

Aram

[BusyLittleShop]

BusyLittleShop,

Thank you for that very informative post. I'm saving it.

I am aware of the issues around hygroscopicity, and the deterioration of performance that results. I replace my brake and clutch fluids yearly (or thereabouts) as cheap insurance. I like my brakes. I like them best when they stop the bike.

I didn't know abouty the silicon breed of fluids. Thanks for explaining. The concern that triggered my initial post was residual previous fluid mixing with the new stuff. From your post, it sounds like I should be fine -- if I gather correclty that all fluids labeled DOT4 are glycol based. (I flushed the old stuff out fairly thoroughly anyway).

Thanks again for the information.

Ride safe,

Aram

You're welcome... you gathered correctly that all fluids labeled DOT4 are glycol based... the "Super" part is marketing...

[BusyLittleShop]

Is there any point to this? As we all know Honda tells you to use DOT4, as such DOT4 should be fine.

True but that was 12 years ago on your prize... you want to be current use DOT 5.1...

[texasvfr]

Do not get Dot 5 anywhere near a system that was not DESIGNED for it , which are mainly trucks,RVs.

Dot 4 and Dot 5.1 are totally compatable. Have been told by every tech not to use Dot 5.1 in a bike. Have used Dot 5.1 in about 15 bikes ever since it came on the American marker about 12 years ago. No problems at all ! It is a problem for techs because they are not replacing parts damaged by brake and clutch parts harmed by water absorbed in Dot 4 systems.

Dot 5.1 is glycol based but it is not hydroscopic- it does not absorb water-unlike Dot 4.

Dot 5.1 appears to have a lower viscosity than Dot 4 but I have never had a problem.

Oh boy, another what oil is best thread.

Yeah add a bike choke(sic) to the HF bike lift and it will be like a cell phone, how did we get along without this. Combine coupons and you can get a lift for even cheaper. Some of the best bucks that I have ever spent was for the cheap HP bike lift.