Member Contributer blkcruzer Posted January 31, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2011 I just finished the installation of my all-balls head bearing kit. I have picked it up somewhere on this forum that after you change the stock ball bearings out and put in the tapered rollers that the new bearings are taller, and you have to slide the forks up in the triples a couple MM to offset the change. I am going to be getting back my forks and shock from Jaime Daugherty soon, and I want to have a clue how to put the ole girl back together!! Bike is a 5th Gen Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted January 31, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2011 I just finished the installation of my all-balls head bearing kit. I have picked it up somewhere on this forum that after you change the stock ball bearings out and put in the tapered rollers that the new bearings are taller, and you have to slide the forks up in the triples a couple MM to offset the change. I am going to be getting back my forks and shock from Jaime Daugherty soon, and I want to have a clue how to put the ole girl back together!! Bike is a 5th Gen Jason Should go together as stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Should go together as stock. Torque on the tapered bearings is MUCH lower than for oem ball type, do not over tighten! You should raise your forks about 2-5mm, the tapered rollers stack taller and also behave differently. Turn-in will feel slower than before unless you adjust the fork height(afterwards setting sag!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer KevCarver Posted January 31, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2011 Fair enough, never heard that before.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Fair enough, never heard that before.. First time I put the tapered rollers in a bike, I tried to set the torque to stock and it was like I had welded the trees in place. After a little research, I found that just over hand tight is enough. :blink: The dozen+ sets I've installed since have all gone smoothly and had good feedback for the ones not installed on my personal bikes. On the other hand, tok tokkie actually broke his bearing land in his 5th gen frame neck while attempting to torque his tapered roller bearings to stock specs. Guess I got lucky that 1st time!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rice Posted January 31, 2011 Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2011 I can def. attest to the fact that forks must be raised. I didn't know about it at the time and left stock height after the install. My steering felt slower vs. stock due to change of geometry. Not knowing about it, I attributed change to the bearings and was regretting ever installing them. Then someone here enlightened me and all was good after that. Can't speak for the torque though. I've never torqued bearings before. Always hand-tight + whatever it takes to get to the next detent for the pin to slide through. Never had issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer blkcruzer Posted January 31, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted January 31, 2011 Should go together as stock. Torque on the tapered bearings is MUCH lower than for oem ball type, do not over tighten! You should raise your forks about 2-5mm, the tapered rollers stack taller and also behave differently. Turn-in will feel slower than before unless you adjust the fork height(after setting sag!) You say adjust the fork height after setting sag, why? I never touched any of the suspension before now, I am having Jaime rebuild the forks and a shock to my weight. I have read a great deal about sag and I realize that I need to set it and that it is important, but why do I set sag and then adjust fork height? Am I trying to get some other measurement to an optimal number like ground clearance? I was smart enough to measure the fork height before I pulled the forks, a rather cheezy way, but i still have a pretty good measurement, before I loosened the clipon or anything else, a 5MM allen wrench was the exact gap between the top of the clipon and the groove that the snap ring goes into. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 You say adjust the fork height after setting sag, why? Jason So that you can have the pleasure of doing it twice? :blush: Sorry, I mis-typed & fixed my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer blkcruzer Posted February 1, 2011 Author Member Contributer Share Posted February 1, 2011 You say adjust the fork height after setting sag, why? Jason So that you can have the pleasure of doing it twice? :blush: Sorry, I mis-typed & fixed my post. No problem, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something important!! Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 No problem, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something important!! Jason It's going to be close whether you do it before or after, but if you're a perfectionist, then do it after you have the fork height set as you will change the balance a tad. I'm 10mm over stock callout for height, on my VTEC with Racetech internals and tapered rollers. It's where I found I liked the handling the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BartmanEH Posted October 7, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 7, 2012 [...]You should raise your forks about 2-5mm, the tapered rollers stack taller and also behave differently. Turn-in will feel slower than before unless you adjust the fork height(afterwards setting sag!) Seb, really? The All-Balls tapered bearings I just put in last night seem to be about the same height. I'm discussing this in another thread. V4 Rosso points out that if the tapered bearings were significantly taller than stock bearings that there would be a gap between the lower dust shield and the frame's steering head. Based on my inspection, there's no gap so the bearings must be awfully close to the same height. I can see how the steering and turn in etc. might feel different with the tapered bearings so one might adjust the geometry to suit. What I'm trying to determine is if I need to adjust fork height strictly to compensate for the tapered vs. stock bearings. I'm leaning towards believing that there shouldn't be a difference based on the evidence above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEBSPEED Posted October 7, 2012 Share Posted October 7, 2012 I can see how the steering and turn in etc. might feel different with the tapered bearings so one might adjust the geometry to suit. That was the main point of my statement, to adjust for the change in feel. I don't remember the numbers off the top of my head, but there is a 1-2mm stack height difference between the tapered and ball bearings. Not much, but the discerning rider will notice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baileyrock Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Not much, but the discerning rider will notice. Well I don't have to worry about that then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BartmanEH Posted October 9, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 9, 2012 I don't understand why the forks would have to be raised to compensate for the taller tapered bearings. It should be the opposite. If the All Balls tapered bearings stack taller than the stock bearings, then the triple clamp will be offset higher up off the steering stem head of the frame. If you then set the forks to the same height they were with the stock bearings, they will effectively have been raised in the triple clamp by the height difference between the stack height of the tapered versus stock bearings. If anything you should have to lower the forks in the triple clamp to match the original geometry. I'm not claiming to be a particularly discerning rider - I'm not aggressive or experienced enough with suspension issue, however, I must say that this is my impression with my test rides after putting in the tapered bearings - the bike wants to fall into corners more than before with the stock bearings. I set the forks to exactly the same height i had with the stock steering bearings - 46mm from fork shoulder to triple clamp - and the bike really wants to fall into to corners and I need to keep force on the bars to stop it from falling into the turn more. I plan to lower the forks a bit to see if I can get a more neutral attitude in corners. Seb/Rice, what do you think? Do you agree that taller bearings put more space between triple clamp and frame and therefore effectively pull up the forks, steepening the rake and causes steeper turn performance? Please explain why you think one needs to raise the forks - I think they need to be lowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer Rice Posted October 9, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 9, 2012 I never measured anything. In my experience, raising the forks helped with the change in handling that I have expoerienced after installing the rollers. If you are saying that the bike tends to fall into the corners, the first thing that comes to my mind is that you should actually lowertyour forks to slow the steering down. The only time I have had the same issue is when my tires (mostly front) were worn flat in the middle. If I were you I'd experiment with fork height and see what helps the most - Raising or lowering them. Also, make sure that the steering is smooth and there is no binding on the bearings due to overtightning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer JETS Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 I don't understand why the forks would have to be raised to compensate for the taller tapered bearings. It should be the opposite. If the All Balls tapered bearings stack taller than the stock bearings, then the triple clamp will be offset higher up off the steering stem head of the frame. If you then set the forks to the same height they were with the stock bearings, they will effectively have been raised in the triple clamp by the height difference between the stack height of the tapered versus stock bearings. If anything you should have to lower the forks in the triple clamp to match the original geometry. I'm not claiming to be a particularly discerning rider - I'm not aggressive or experienced enough with suspension issue, however, I must say that this is my impression with my test rides after putting in the tapered bearings - the bike wants to fall into corners more than before with the stock bearings. I set the forks to exactly the same height i had with the stock steering bearings - 46mm from fork shoulder to triple clamp - and the bike really wants to fall into to corners and I need to keep force on the bars to stop it from falling into the turn more. I plan to lower the forks a bit to see if I can get a more neutral attitude in corners. Seb/Rice, what do you think? Do you agree that taller bearings put more space between triple clamp and frame and therefore effectively pull up the forks, steepening the rake and causes steeper turn performance? Please explain why you think one needs to raise the forks - I think they need to be lowered. I have done the All-Balls job on my VFR and my SV650. Both sets settled into the original races and no height offset was seen. I keep my fork tubes up at 9mm above the clip ons and like the more aggressive turn in, but that is just me. When my original bearings were notched and clicky, it was hard to turn in at first, then the bike would give way suddenly and fall into the turn. All that drama went away with the new bearings. I tighten the new bearings till they drag and then rotate back and forth under weight, then loosen and re-tighten with the lightest of tightening to just a hair of pre-load...that is, no slop, no extra clearance.Come back in a month and recheck for loosening with use, and you are good for the rest of the life of the bike I think. For discussion's sake, tho, when I diagram the situation, the effect of "taller" tapered bearings would be to jack up the headstock whatever no. of mm the lower bearing protruded. This upraising could be neutralized by dropping the headstock, triples and all, down the fork tubes ("raising" the forks). Of course doing so alters trail a bit, affecting the ease of turn in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer BartmanEH Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 [...]the effect of "taller" tapered bearings would be to jack up the headstock whatever no. of mm the lower bearing protruded. This upraising could be neutralized by dropping the headstock, triples and all, down the fork tubes ("raising" the forks). Of course doing so alters trail a bit, affecting the ease of turn in. That's not quite correct because the measurements are made from the top of the triple clamp to the top of the fork. I whipped up a drawing to help visualize the situation: The left version represents the stock bearings. The right version represents new bearings that we presume have a taller stack height (which the evidence shows probably not to be true or at least very little). For the sake of argument, assume the new bearings have a taller stack height. The effect is that the upper triple clamp is raised off the steering head frame. If you place the forks in the triple clamp at the same original height which is measured relative to the triple clamp, you have effectively raised the forks in the frame by an amount equal to the stack height difference of the new top bearing versus the stock bearing. You have also spread the triple clamp and steering stem so that the forks are secured father apart by an amount equal to the stack height difference between the stock and new bearings. If you want the same geometry after putting taller bearings in, you have to lower the forks in the triple clamp to compensate. The effect of taller bearings is to lower the headstock if the fork height above the triple clamp is maintained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Contributer majordomo490 Posted October 12, 2012 Member Contributer Share Posted October 12, 2012 Bart you are correct. Always take a measurement from the lower frame steering head to ground and use this as a base if you change anything in the steering head. No one will notice a 1-2mm change. Its all in the mind. Tapers sacrifice feel and low speed heaviness for longevity. That is why 20 years ago the manufacturers went back to the ball layout on the sport bikes. Great drawing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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