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Baileyrock

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@Baileyrock

I'm doing my suspension this winter on my 07 and decided simply that I am going to copy your setup. wink.gif Hope you don't mind. I fluctuate from 200-220lbs every now and then.

I'm going to go with a .95kg in the front with a 19.3 or a 1078lbs ish in the rear. I may go with a 3 way Elka or an Ohlins in the rear, still unsure at this point. (any advice here?)

My questions just to confirm before I really start planning are:

1. Are you still happy with the 30% front and 25% rear increase relations?

2. What valving if any was done to the front?

3. What weight oil have you settled with?

Sorry for firing up an older thread but it's a good one.

Thanks

JS

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Don't forget that with all this Forking around you guys are doing to the front that you need to consider increasing the rear spring rate to better maintain the bikes balance and get better performance from your forks too.

I first did the forks with valving & .95's and I installed an Ohlins on the rear with a stock rate spring, though it was an improvement it wasn't right.

When I finally installed the proper rear spring on the rear (19kg for my 200 lbs) it transformed both ends of the bike!!! fing02.gif

Turns out running a soft/stock rear spring with new stiffer screwed up feel on both ends because the stiff front transfered more weight to the already to soft rear making it feel worse and the stiffer front tended to bounce across many bumps and irregular surfaces instead of absorbing them.

I had a old post about it " transformed" don't know if it's still around, but consider stiffening the rear spring in close to the same percentage as the front and you'll be much happier.

(note if you just commute and don't hit the twisties you may never notice it) cool.gif

Interesting to have this thread dug up, as I recently had a similar situation to baileyrock, with front springs that were too stiff compared to the rear, but in my case, it was just because the front was too stiff. Like him, I had 0.95s in the front, beautifully revalved with Race Tech and Ohlins parts and new seals and bushes, to go with the Elka on the rear. It handled beautifully steering wise, but was a bit harsh on choppy road surfaces at certain speeds (around 40-50 mph).

The front springs were subsequently replaced with Ohlins 0.90s, and revalved to match, and the ride was much more plush and compliant. It meant though that this highlighted the incorrect setup of the Elka. Luckily, I dialed everything back to the mid-point settings, hoping that Elka would've set it up so these were close to being right for my weight, and it turned out a couple of clicks off this felt pretty good. I've lost some of the scalpel-like precision, but I'm getting used to that. It's still MILES better than the stock setup.

Jason - I don't know what spring Elka have in the back (but I'd like to know - is it stamped on it? Can I find out from John at Motoworld or Elka themselves?)

My weight is around 190 pounds, so I think the 0.95 would be the right front spring for you. As for Ohlins vs. Elka, personally, I'd go for the Ohlins, but that's based on the fact that the only suspension shop here is an Ohlins one, and because Ohlins have much more road and track experience than Elka, so that gives them an advantage with knowing the best set up for internal valving.

Edited by enzed_viffer
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Guest Pete McCrary

BillyJack:

Traxxion set my Penske up with a 1400# spring and even with zero preload I couldn't get the rider sag to be correct (I weigh 265#). Plus I had zero fee sag (bike only) I bought a couple of springs from Hoerr and I am currently running a 1300# spring. I've got 7 mm free sag (bike only) and 30 mm rider sag. Bike handles great. Did the exact procedure Trevitt describes in the book Kevin and I have.

Get the right spring(s) on a bike and you will be surprised at how little compression damping you have to run. And I do believe 50-100# difference on a spring makes a big difference.

I've got a ton of 6" x 2.25" ID springs laying around. Let me know what you need if you have a Penske and we can work something out where we both come out ahead.

Pete

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my two cents:

250lb rider

.95 up front with revalve ohlins by jamie daughtry

950lb on rebuilt f4i shock

it is no where near as stiff as BRs and now that I have it dialed in, is great for riding semi hard, but still handles bumps remarkably well. BR and i have had this discussion and i hope he gets to ride mine soon, but unless you are riding aggressive on the street, i believe that the a 1200+ spring on the rear is too heavy. i have no issue setting sag.

Dale, somethings not right here. :huh: Your bike with the supposed 950 lb spring is/was TWICE as stiff as the rear of my bike with an 1100 lb spring on it!!! I couldn't even get the rear of your bike to move bouncing on it! :fing02: That's what I was telling you when I got off your bike, the rear wouldn't move under my weight, where mine was soft compared to yours!

I would have to guess that whoever built that F4i shock for you did something strange to it like an incredibly stiff comp shim stack or twice the normal amount of gas charge, there is no way a 950 lb spring is even close to being correct for your weight on a VFR by anyone's correct calculations.

I don't know what changed at ReceTech, but their Spring Rate Calculator for the VFR is Now way soft too, it used to be very hard, but Ohlins, Penske, and even JD will all come up with much higher and more accurate spring rate numbers for our VFR's.

Contact JD now and ask about what spring his calculations would come up with for your weight, he had to adjust his calculator recently because it had some slight error that was causing low spring rate calculations.

For whatever reason, your bike is NOT the norm! :excl:

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my two cents:

250lb rider

.95 up front with revalve ohlins by jamie daughtry

950lb on rebuilt f4i shock

it is no where near as stiff as BRs and now that I have it dialed in, is great for riding semi hard, but still handles bumps remarkably well. BR and i have had this discussion and i hope he gets to ride mine soon, but unless you are riding aggressive on the street, i believe that the a 1200+ spring on the rear is too heavy. i have no issue setting sag.

Dale, somethings not right here. :huh: Your bike with the supposed 950 lb spring is/was TWICE as stiff as the rear of my bike with an 1100 lb spring on it!!! I couldn't even get the rear of your bike to move bouncing on it! +1.gif That's what I was telling you when I got off your bike, the rear wouldn't move under my weight, where mine was soft compared to yours!

I would have to guess that whoever built that F4i shock for you did something strange to it like an incredibly stiff comp shim stack or twice the normal amount of gas charge, there is no way a 950 lb spring is even close to being correct for your weight on a VFR by anyone's correct calculations.

I don't know what changed at ReceTech, but their Spring Rate Calculator for the VFR is Now way soft too, it used to be very hard, but Ohlins, Penske, and even JD will all come up with much higher and more accurate spring rate numbers for our VFR's.

Contact JD now and ask about what spring his calculations would come up with for your weight, he had to adjust his calculator recently because it had some slight error that was causing low spring rate calculations.

For whatever reason, your bike is NOT the norm! :blush:

it was because the compression was too high (closed). as i mentioned, i have set it up after the revalve job on the front and now it is definitely working right. i have the front with the new valving matching the action on the rear and for street riding with our weekend runs, it works great. you'll have to try it (if we ever see the sun again). just to be sure, i checked again; eibach 0950 spring and sag just checked out at 25-30mm (did it alone, thus the range) not sure what else to tell you.

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Guest Pete McCrary
BillyJack:

Traxxion set my Penske up with a 1400# spring and even with zero preload I couldn't get the rider sag to be correct (I weigh 265#). Plus I had zero fee sag (bike only) I bought a couple of springs from Hoerr and I am currently running a 1300# spring. I've got 7 mm free sag (bike only) and 30 mm rider sag. Bike handles great. Did the exact procedure Trevitt describes in the book Kevin and I have.

Get the right spring(s) on a bike and you will be surprised at how little compression damping you have to run. And I do believe 50-100# difference on a spring makes a big difference.

I've got a ton of 6" x 2.25" ID springs laying around. Let me know what you need if you have a Penske and we can work something out where we both come out ahead.

Pete

Pete,

So do his recommendations sound good to you? Or are you saying that you think a 1300 is too much?

Kevin

1300# I would think is way too much. I weigh 265# and a 1300# spring is what I run.

Here's the Reader's Digest version of Andrew Trevitt's method for determining the correct rear spring rate:

1. Get you free length (fully extended) obviously as a reference. Got to know where you're starting from. I highly recommend using a Baxley wheel sport chock with a piece of 1" thick wood underneath the rear tire. A Baxley sport chock with the pin in the forward position raises the front of the bike exactly one inch. This keeps the bike level and you don't need a bunch of extra peeps to hold the bike up and balance it.

2. Get on the bike, assume the correct riding position and have some one crank in/out preload until you get 30 mm of sag with you on the bike.

3. Get off the bike and measure the bike sag. If the shock tops out, the spring is too soft. I know, it sounds counter intuitive. What is happening is you are dialing in so much preload into the spring to get your 30 mm of rider sag the preload completely extends the shock when you're off the bike.

4. If you can't get the 30 mm of rider sag regardless of how little preload you use, your spring is too stiff.

5. What you are shooting for is 5-8 mm of bike sag while simultaneously having 30 mm of rider sag.

6. As I said previously, if you get the correct spring(s) on a bike, you'll be surprised at how little compression damping you need.

Theoretically, you should be able to ride a bike with out a shock. All a shock does is control the dynamics of the spring. The spring(s) are what hold the bike up and allow the wheels to move up and down, not the shocks. Don't try to make a shock do a spring's job.

Hope all of this makes sense.

Pete

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it was because the compression was too high (closed). as i mentioned, i have set it up after the revalve job on the front and now it is definitely working right. i have the front with the new valving matching the action on the rear and for street riding with our weekend runs, it works great. you'll have to try it (if we ever see the sun again). just to be sure, i checked again; eibach 0950 spring and sag just checked out at 25-30mm (did it alone, thus the range) not sure what else to tell you.

I wondered what your comp settings was because like I said your bike had No movement on the rear when I rode it! :huh:

I'm glad you have it dialed in now to your liking! +1.gif

Now on Sag numbers: Being able to attain rider sag within the ideal range does NOT mean you have the correct spring, that is only one aspect of determining the correct spring rates and I think Pete just covered it in the previous post. You need the correct FREE(unladen) sag too.

If my thoughts are correct I would venture that you have NO Free sag on your bike, this would be because the rear spring is too soft and you need to crank in a bunch of Pre-Load to achieve the desired 25-30 mm of rider sag which eliminates any free sag. :blush:

We need to check it on your bike, ride it over one day and will do it, if it ever stops raining!

I was able to attain 30 mm rider sag running a 900 lb spring on my Ohlins, but I had No free sag so I switched to the correct 19 kg spring and now have 10 mm free sag w/ 32 mm rider sag. I should tighten that up a little. :huh:

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Kevin:

Do you know what size springs fit on an Ohlins? Penske's use 6" long by 2.25" ID springs. I've got quite a varied selection from 1000# up to 1250# available. I'm using the 1300# on my VFR and the 1400# I salvaged from the original Traxxion set-up on my ST1300.

Not to flog a dead horse, but what the hell. This is exactly why I don't have a lot of confidence in Traxxion. They sent my VFR shock with a 1400# spring on it. They sent my ST1300 shock with a 1000# spring.

Go figure.

Glad we got the "book" and educated ourselves.

Here's a "backwards" way to look at determining the correct spring rate. Let's say you put an 850# spring on a VFR. Then you adjusted the preload to achieve the 5-8 mm bike sag first. Imagine what the rider sag would be when one of us heffers got on the bike. That's why a topped out spring is actually an indication of a too soft spring.

Pete

The 970 lb Ohlins spring that came off my 5th gen shock has 6.75" free length & the 2.25" ID.

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  • 3 months later...
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COMPLETION REPORT

Specs

Me - 220lbs no gear. I wear full textile top to bottom.

My Suspension Preference - slightly to the plush side. I could have gone with 1.0kg and maybe an 1150lbs rear spring but I didn't want a "firm" ride. Valving was setup accordingly as well. I also have room built in to loose weight without causing too much firmness in the ride.

Parts

Elka 3-Way with remote pre-load - Rear spring rate - 1100lb or 19.6kg (STOCK 15.3kg) 28% increase.

FRSP S3732095 RT Front Fork Spring 36.7x34.5x315 .95kg from RaceTech (STOCK .74kg) with valving (see below) to compensate for the increased spring rate. 28% increase.

RaceTech

G2-R Gold Valve Kit - G2-R Next Generation Compression Kit

FMGV S2040G

Fork Rebound HFR Gold Valve Kit-Racing (Hi-Frequency Response Race Rebound Gold Valve)

FRGV SR2001

Stock Oil Weight = Honda SS-8 (10wt)

New Oil Weight = Maxima 5wt HP Fork Oil (RaceTech recommended US1 which is 2.5wt - 5wt from what I can tell)

Well all the bits arrived and they are all in. I tried to do it without taking the forks off but the oil lock piece at the bottom of the fork caused some grief. I couldn't get the cartridge to seat so couldn't get the bolt back in, none the less taking the forks off added another 10 min so it wasn't a big deal.

So the numbers (with full gear on)...

Rear - 35mm sag in the rear with 9mm free sag.

Front - 35mm sag with 22mm free sag... is that okay or is the spring to stiff...? It can't be to stiff, considering that RaceTech actually wants a 1kg+ spring for my 220lbs. I was having some stiction related number changing but I'm pretty sure I got decently reliable numbers.

So... is 20-22mm free sag okay?

I posted the above quote in a different thread yesterday but considering this is about overall balance I thought it was best here.

After yesterday's numbers I adjusted my shock to lower the bikes height back to a "stockish" level. I have no idea what the stock height actually is and/or where to measure it, if anyone knows....

So after decreasing the height of the rear and subsequently unloading the forks a bit I got the following numbers (with gear, 3/4 full tank)...

Front:

Sag - 35 mm (3 lines exposed on the pre-load adjuster)

Free Sag - 15mm, down 7mm.

Rear:

Sag - 35 mm (23 out of 52 available clicks in on the pre-load)

Free Sag - 7mm, down 2mm.

I can live with those numbers.

A big thanks to all and especially Kevin who created this thread and put me on the right path. The bike is balanced as far as I can tell in the first go and I am happy. Now to spend the summer tweaking the dials :fing02:

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Guest Pete McCrary

Jason:

Kevin and I have hashed this spring thing to death over the last year. We have both came to the same conclusion and that is that spring rates are probably the most overlooked and ignored factor in setting up a bike. And I guess the surprising thing about all of it is that springs really aren't all that expensive (if you go to Hoerr) and if you have a Penske or similar shock, changing the spring is not that big a deal.

Just my opinion, but in looking at your numbers, I think your rear spring is still just a tad soft. A 1200# sounds like it would put you dead on the money.

Remember that a spring is a spring is a spring. As long as it is dimensionally correct, it doesn't matter if you buy it from an automotive high performance shop or a motorcycle suspension wizard. The difference is the price you pay each for the same exact spring from the same exact manufacturer. The guys at Hoerr (pronounced Hare BTW) are telling me that more and more motorcycle guys are wising up and buying from them.

Pete

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Just my opinion, but in looking at your numbers, I think your rear spring is still just a tad soft. A 1200# sounds like it would put you dead on the money.

That's interesting.

I've been trying to get my suspension properly fettled, and UnZud's premier suspension guru was of the opinion that my 900pound/inch shock spring (and damping) was too stiff for our roads. I'd already had the front springs changed from 0.95kg/mm ones to 0.90, and tha damping altered to match.

FWIW, I weigh ~190 poondz.

I completely agree with Pete That at 190 lbs you should be running at least a 19kg(1068 lb) rear spring which is what I run @190 lbs. It is probably a little soft for 190 lb riders.

Like many so called experts yours is wrong IMO!

Proper spring rate is a proper spring rate no matter the road conditions, damping adjustments are what's used to adjust to road surfaces in general.

:rolleyes:

BR

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Guest Pete McCrary

The guys at Hoerr (pronounced Hare BTW) are telling me that more and more motorcycle guys are wising up and buying from them.

Pete

Pete, do you have some contact info for them? If you do, can you post it here and also in a separate post in the suspension forum? I would like to see a post like that pinned for future reference!

Thanks!

Seb:

Here's their home page: http://www.hrpworld.com/

Hyperco spring page: http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Hyperco_Springs_and_Hydraulic_Spring_Perchs&form_cat_id=504,41,363&action=category

Remember, they pronounce their name Hare (like a rabbit), not whore. :rolleyes: Great folks to deal with. :unsure:

Pete

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Jason:

Kevin and I have hashed this spring thing to death over the last year. We have both came to the same conclusion and that is that spring rates are probably the most overlooked and ignored factor in setting up a bike. And I guess the surprising thing about all of it is that springs really aren't all that expensive (if you go to Hoerr) and if you have a Penske or similar shock, changing the spring is not that big a deal.

Just my opinion, but in looking at your numbers, I think your rear spring is still just a tad soft. A 1200# sounds like it would put you dead on the money.

Remember that a spring is a spring is a spring. As long as it is dimensionally correct, it doesn't matter if you buy it from an automotive high performance shop or a motorcycle suspension wizard. The difference is the price you pay each for the same exact spring from the same exact manufacturer. The guys at Hoerr (pronounced Hare BTW) are telling me that more and more motorcycle guys are wising up and buying from them.

Pete

I hear ya Pete, I agree that I could move up a notch in the rear but the only thing I am concerned with is going to stiff. My goal all along was to get 35mm sag front and back. I guess I could go to 1200# in the back and still get 35mm but I will have more free sag then correct. My guess would be that it would land about in the same area as the front 15mm or so. Right now it feels super, It's not too stiff but it's firm to the responsive side.

Funny thing is, Elka didn't position a line correctly. After dumping the nitrogen, moving the line to where it needed to be, charging the nitrogen it won't stop leaking. :biggrin: So...I need to take the shock out tomorrow and if am going to change the spring now is the time I guess.

So the question is.. is 15mm free sag okay cause if I go to a 1200# in the rear I will be 15mm free in the front and back? I don't want a stiff ride, I can't stress that enough. Or will going from 35mm sag to 30-32mm free sag not make much of difference in the ride. I don't want stiff, did I say that already.

EDIT: after thinking about it Pete I think I may upgrade the rear some. Then I'll adjust the sag to around 30-32mm if I can. If I tried that with the rear right now it would top out or have next to little free sag. Curious if 1200# is the right number though.

Edited by jasonsmith
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I hear ya Pete, I agree that I could move up a notch in the rear but the only thing I am concerned with is going to stiff. My goal all along was to get 35mm sag front and back. I guess I could go to 1200# in the back and still get 35mm but I will have more free sag then correct. My guess would be that it would land about in the same area as the front 15mm or so. Right now it feels super, It's not too stiff but it's firm to the responsive side.

Funny thing is, Elka didn't position a line correctly. After dumping the nitrogen, moving the line to where it needed to be, charging the nitrogen it won't stop leaking. :fing02: So...I need to take the shock out tomorrow and if am going to change the spring now is the time I guess.

So the question is.. is 15mm free sag okay cause if I go to a 1200# in the rear I will be 15mm free in the front and back? I don't want a stiff ride, I can't stress that enough. Or will going from 35mm sag to 30-32mm free sag not make much of difference in the ride. I don't want stiff, did I say that already.

EDIT: after thinking about it Pete I think I may upgrade the rear some. Then I'll adjust the sag to around 30-32mm if I can. If I tried that with the rear right now it would top out or have next to little free sag. Curious if 1200# is the right number though.

Bumping the spring rate up is going to decrease your free sag to less than the current 9mm.

BTW, here are Ohlins recommendations on sag, just another take on it.

Static Fr: 15-30mm, R: 10-20mm

Rider Fr: 35-50mm, R: 25-40mm

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I hear ya Pete, I agree that I could move up a notch in the rear but the only thing I am concerned with is going to stiff. My goal all along was to get 35mm sag front and back. I guess I could go to 1200# in the back and still get 35mm but I will have more free sag then correct. My guess would be that it would land about in the same area as the front 15mm or so. Right now it feels super, It's not too stiff but it's firm to the responsive side.

Funny thing is, Elka didn't position a line correctly. After dumping the nitrogen, moving the line to where it needed to be, charging the nitrogen it won't stop leaking. :fing02: So...I need to take the shock out tomorrow and if am going to change the spring now is the time I guess.

So the question is.. is 15mm free sag okay cause if I go to a 1200# in the rear I will be 15mm free in the front and back? I don't want a stiff ride, I can't stress that enough. Or will going from 35mm sag to 30-32mm free sag not make much of difference in the ride. I don't want stiff, did I say that already.

EDIT: after thinking about it Pete I think I may upgrade the rear some. Then I'll adjust the sag to around 30-32mm if I can. If I tried that with the rear right now it would top out or have next to little free sag. Curious if 1200# is the right number though.

Bumping the spring rate up is going to decrease your free sag to less than the current 9mm.

BTW, here are Ohlins recommendations on sag, just another take on it.

Static Fr: 15-30mm, R: 10-20mm

Rider Fr: 35-50mm, R: 25-40mm

I have 23 clicks on the rear pre-load which is about 8mm or so of artificial height (negative free sag) at the shock which translates to more at the hub where I was measuring from. If I go with a stiffer spring I won't need as much pre-load. If I didn't have any pre-load then yes It would decrease my free sag but in this case I think it will actually give me some more room. (please correct me before Monday if I am wrong wink.gif ) As per Ohlins recommendations though I am almost bang on... hummm

Edited by jasonsmith
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Guest Pete McCrary

What kills your free sag is too light a spring that has to have a load of preload cranked in to it to get the proper rider + bike sag. I can assure you that a 1200# spring will not give you 0 mm free sag unless you crank a lot of preload in to it.

It is my experience more and more that when you get the correct spring on the bike, it doesn't take a lot of preload to hit the correct number for either free sag or rider + bike sag.

The experiences and philosophy that Kevin and I both have developed is that you watch some one's video, read someone's article(s), etc. and they talk about setting the sag and then move on to twisting rebound and compression knobs. It amazes us how the suspension gurus on the net just gloss over the correct spring rate.

An analogy here: When you see NASCAR drivers, Indy car drivers, etc interviewed about suspension, they seldom if ever talk about more rebound or more compression - they talk about changing springs. I just think springs are the most overlooked component of suspension tuning.

And one last thought: Getting the spring rate correct is just like getting the compression/damping correct, air pressure correct, etc - there is a lot of trial and error when you get close to the ideal setup for your weight and riding style.

Jason: Try the 1200# and see if it's better. If it's not, go back to your current set up.

Capn: I've seen those Ohlins numbers on their website too. I'm basing my statements on Trevitt, Code, and Ibbott's book(s) and my own personal experiences. Ohlins seems to indicate a very small difference between free sag and rider + bike sag - seems like that would mean even stiffer springs.

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I am just getting more confused now. I picked up a Elka on the Super Group Buy 1.0. On my 5th Gen I went with a 3 way with Hydrolic preload. I spec'ed the rear shock with me being 200# naked. I wanted it firm but responsive(not harsh) and I have a full Givi set up with a Wingrack that I tour with. The Givi set up is not on except for long trips. I usually have a Givi hard tail bag right over the tail light. The Tech @ Elka emailed me to verify my weight and set up

Vlad called me and let me know what spring they put on my rear shock and its a 900# spring.

Sorry Vlad, must of missed Jasons name when we spoke, and thanks Jason for the link.

My rear seems really soft as I read thru all these threads. Especially since I am around 220 at this point.

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I am just getting more confused now. I picked up a Elka on the Super Group Buy 1.0. On my 5th Gen I went with a 3 way with Hydrolic preload. I spec'ed the rear shock with me being 200# naked. I wanted it firm but responsive(not harsh) and I have a full Givi set up with a Wingrack that I tour with. The Givi set up is not on except for long trips. I usually have a Givi hard tail bag right over the tail light. The Tech @ Elka emailed me to verify my weight and set up

Vlad called me and let me know what spring they put on my rear shock and its a 900# spring.

Sorry Vlad, must of missed Jasons name when we spoke, and thanks Jason for the link.

My rear seems really soft as I read thru all these threads. Especially since I am around 220 at this point.

I can guarantee you that it is too soft my friend. I specifically told Elka to put an 1100# in the rear hoping to match the front end work. I got .95kg springs in the front and that setup for my weight (also 220lbs naked :fing02: ) is PERFECT. As the smart suspension dudes have already mentioned based off my sag #'s my rear is slightly too soft still and I agree with them. It feels great but based on the numbers the suspension is quite "Balanced" and that is the whole point if this exercise for me. Also as mentioned above changing the spring out is no big deal providing that the valving in the shock can handle the extra spring rate. Give Elka a call and see if upping the spring rate will be an issue.

We know my rear is too soft because I am short on free sag (7mm) due to having to dial in pre-load (23 clicks) to get to my desired 35mm of rider sag. I would guess that if you tried to get to 35mm of rider sag you would have 0 free sag and your pre-load would be fully cranked.

This thread is all about "Balance". I know you were looking to get some stuff for the front, PM me. You should do the same to the front as you do to the rear. Changing springs alone in the front without valving won't yield that great of a result either since you should most likely go to .95kg's as well.

I was scared about increasing the spring rates and getting a stiff ride but realized that if the valving is done correctly then the ride will be firmer but not stiff if you know what I mean. I took mine out for spin with this setup and it felt awesome. Firm (responsive) but not stiff or harsh, even over the construction area's that I deliberately aimed for.

I just actually finished pulling my shock, 1hr, record time for me. Elka didn't position the reservoir line correctly so it was forcing itself on a wiring bundle before exiting out of the sub-frame area. I adjusted it as per their instructions but now it's leaking and won't stop. Calling Elka tomorrow to see what they will do for me. I will most likely get them to change my spring to a 1200# if I have to send it in.

This suspension tinkering is a roller coaster ride at best. It can be a pain in the rear, but it's fun to take the bike apart and even more fun riding it the way it should have been built in the first place.

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Guest Pete McCrary

I want to get philosophical here for a moment about this whole suspension thing.

I own a civil engineering firm and I have to preach this mantra to my staff everyday about designing things or trying to achieve the optimum design: Don't create artificial limits or boundaries for yourself that really don't exist.

And where this applies to this thread is where did the concept of having to have the new suspension setup to be an equal amount stiffer front and rear than what Honda sent us from the factory? Maybe the rear needs to be 1.50 times stiffer than the spring rate of stock and maybe the front only needs to be 1.25 times stiffer than stock.

Don't create boundaries for your thinking that don't exist.

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I am just getting more confused now. I picked up a Elka on the Super Group Buy 1.0. On my 5th Gen I went with a 3 way with Hydrolic preload. I spec'ed the rear shock with me being 200# naked. I wanted it firm but responsive(not harsh) and I have a full Givi set up with a Wingrack that I tour with. The Givi set up is not on except for long trips. I usually have a Givi hard tail bag right over the tail light. The Tech @ Elka emailed me to verify my weight and set up

Vlad called me and let me know what spring they put on my rear shock and its a 900# spring.

Sorry Vlad, must of missed Jasons name when we spoke, and thanks Jason for the link.

My rear seems really soft as I read thru all these threads. Especially since I am around 220 at this point.

That sux! Your Elka tech is another guy screwing up people's bikes IMO, there is no way in hell you can get proper SAG numbers with that spring rate! :angry: It happens far to often & by too many suspension company's/shops especially on VFR's. There seems to be a Bunch of Bogus Spring Rate Calculators out there that just have one incorrect number in the VFR's ratio formula that is messing most of them up! JamieDaugherty found a problem in the calculator he was using that provided these same (too) low rear spring rate numbers.

He basically installed a stock spring rate at 900 lbs(858 stock)!

I would call Elka and get them to send you a 1200lb spring min. or install one free for you, I guarantee your Sag #'s and bike will be vastly improved!

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I would call Elka and get them to send you a 1200lb spring min. or install one free for you, I guarantee your Sag #'s and bike will be vastly improved!

I don't agree.

When I installed the Elka (900# spring, and I weigh about 190), the sag was PERFECT without me touching anything. If anything, the spring and/or damping are too firm, as confirmed by our local Ohlins expert, who'd be one of the top road/race suspension experts in the world.

MD and I are about the same weight right now. The numbers don't lie though... If I can only get 35mm of rider sag with only 7mm of free sag then for me to get more rider sag and not loose my free sag I must go to a higher spring rate. What is your rider and free sag if you don't mind me asking?

Hmmm... that's a good point. IIRC, I didn't measure the free sag, only the rider sag, which was between 30 and 35mm. I'd have to measure to find out what the free sag is - I'll do it tonight.

It's interesting (or perhaps not...) how much things have to do with "feel". When I first fitted the Elka, it felt SO much better (firmer, more controlled) than the Showa, especially in rutted corners. It also made the front end feel very wallowy in comparison. Fitting some 0.95 springs and heavier weight oil made the front feel less overwhelmed, and the cornering was superb, and very precise, especially on Avon Storms. However, even with Racetech gold valves and the front end properly set up, it was awful on rough roads at about 40-50 mph, and gave me such a workout I would've ended up with armpump on a long road. It was OK at lower speeds and great at higher speeds thouhg.

Now with 0.90 springs in the forks and appropriate revalving, it feels plush and much more pleasant to ride, but I've lost that scalpel-like cornering, and it makes the rear end feel harsh in comparison. I guess you can't have a compliant ride and great handling, unless maybe it's on a lighter bike. :angry:

Measure up that free sag my friend, it is the "tell" so to speak if you have the correct spring rate or not. If you have 30-35mm of rider sag I would bet you can walk over to your bike right now (on the side stand) and give it a tug on the rear end it most likely won't have any movement. I have .95kg's in my setup and it's perfect so I would agree that maybe for your 190# it was too stiff. Again the numbers are telling the tale for me, I have 35mm rider and 15mm free in the front which means I could probably get 32mm rider and 10mm or so free which is also very good. I am confident that my front is setup as it should be.

What valving do you and did you have in the front? Compression and rebound or just compression?

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I would call Elka and get them to send you a 1200lb spring min. or install one free for you, I guarantee your Sag #'s and bike will be vastly improved!

I don't agree.

When I installed the Elka (900# spring, and I weigh about 190), the sag was PERFECT without me touching anything. If anything, the spring and/or damping are too firm, as confirmed by our local Ohlins expert, who'd be one of the top road/race suspension experts in the world.

You mention later that you have never checked Free sag and w/o Free sag the suspension just does Not work as it should.

I can just about bet that w/your 900lb spring and 30-35 mm of rider sag you have ZERO free sag.

OHLINS recommends 10-15 mm of FREE SAG along with 30-35mm rider sag on the rear.

The point I'm trying to make about correct numbers suggested by these experts are only related to VFR numbers which I feel most of the calculators their using have an error in it for the VFR only.

Is your expert an VFR expert or just using a faulty Calculator like most are using for the VFR and coming up with bogus numbers, I'm not saying these experts don't know what their doing, just do few VFR's and are using bad calculator formulas.

I'm sure there all Spot on with GSXR's, R1's, CBR's etc. because they do a million of them and everyone Races them, not the 1% of VFR's they do. :angry:

Also the problem with most people like us Joe riders is that we only set Rider sag and Not Free sag. Achieving proper spring rates for any bike/suspension combo can only be achieved by having not only the correct Rider Sag, but the correct Free sag too. Using these two numbers is the ONLY way to figure out if you have the correct spring rates!!!

You can crank enough Pre-Load into almost any spring and get Rider Sag numbers close to desired, but for anyone of ant weight 160-170 plus on a VFR you will NOT have any Free Sag which means the springs too soft!

Did your expert actually set the bike up for you or just provide a Shock with a spring on it?

I'll send you a dollar if you have any measurable Free sag w/a 900 lb spring on your VFR.

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Guest Pete McCrary

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The one and only accurate spring rate calculator is the tape measure and measurements made with you off (free sag) and on (rider + bike sag) the bike.

As BR and I can both attest to shipping springs from Smyrna, GA to Nashville, there is some trial and error. Not saying that BR and I are the end all, be all of rear spring experts, but over the last couple of years we have spent a ton of money on springs and wore our fingers out sending PM's back and forth.

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I would bet you can walk over to your bike right now (on the side stand) and give it a tug on the rear end it most likely won't have any movement.

Yeah it does, so you bet wrong(see my reply to BaileyRock below).

What valving do you and did you have in the front? Compression and rebound or just compression?

To be honest, I don't really know. The Ohlins guy fitted Gold valves and a modified shim stack, and the ultra-slippery Ohlins fork oil, as well as the new bushes, shims and seals I supplied.

Then I sent the forks back again, and he replaced the springs and rejigged the valving/shimstack to match, and put another NZ$51 worth of Ohlins BabyAfghaniLesbianPenguinFurSealWhale oil in.

I can just about bet that w/your 900lb spring and 30-35 mm of rider sag you have ZERO free sag.

I'll send you a dollar if you have any measurable Free sag w/a 900 lb spring on your VFR.

Only a dollar? You're not very confident, are you? :beer:

It's actually 12mm on the back, and around 20mm on the front. (That's the difference between suspension fully extended, and settled with only the bike's weight compressing it, right?)

To be honest, I should also remeasure the rider sag, as I may have adjusted the rear end a couple of months back, without checking sag.

Now let me get this straight - you're saying if the springs are too soft, then in order to get the rider sag (suspension postition of rider sitting on bike minus position of bike with suspension fully extended?) correct, there's so much preload wound on that the spring is effectively topped out?

Is your expert an VFR expert or just using a faulty Calculator like most are using for the VFR and coming up with bogus numbers, I'm not saying these experts don't know what their doing, just do few VFR's and are using bad calculator formulas.

I'm sure there all Spot on with GSXR's, R1's, CBR's etc. because they do a million of them and everyone Races them, not the 1% of VFR's they do. :angry:

A VFR expert? I don't know, but I do know while most of his work is with setting up race bikes, he also does a lot of road bikes (inclduing numerous VFRs). He's also very much aware that setting up road and race bikes are very different, given that most racetracks are smooth, and NZ's roads are usually far from smooth.

As such, Racetech and Sonic Springs' spring rate calculators usually come up with rates that are fine for racing, but just don't work on NZ roads and conditions.

Having said that, he told me Ohlins' recommendation for fork springs for my bike were 0.80kg/mm, and I just can't see that. I suspect the ideal may lie between the Ohlins he fitted (0.90) and the Sonic Springs (0.95). Either that, or Sonic Springs sent me the wrong springs (or they're rated wrongly), or the fact the Ohlins are shorter springs makes a difference, but I doubt it. Either way, I'm surprised how much difference there is between the 0.95s and 0.90s.

In any case, his work is guaranteed: if a customer's not satisfied, he'll fix it FOC, multiple times if necessary.

Did your expert actually set the bike up for you or just provide a Shock with a spring on it?

He set it up based on the info I gave him, and using a suspension dyno, to make sure the valving was correct. He would've prefered to set it up with the bike, but I couldn't afford the time off work, as his workshop is 3.5 to 4 hours ride away from here. Plus the courier was MUCH cheaper than fuel etc.

He's coming up here in a few weeks, and is going to check the bike out then. He's offered to replace the spring (if he can get one to fit) and change the valving on the Elka, if it looks like being necessary.

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Guest Pete McCrary

Now let me get this straight - you're saying if the springs are too soft, then in order to get the rider sag (suspension positition of rider sitting on bike minus position of bike with suspension fully extended?) correct, there's so much preload wound on that the spring is effectively topped out?

The shock is topped out in this situation (no rider on bike).

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